Wait...When Did People Start To Bitter To Shadowlands?

[Queen of Hamsters]

When are people not bitter towards current and future content...?

Also, back to only getting your talking points from Preach I see.

[pinkz]

not bitter, but seriously questioning Blizzard, when their DEVs claim to learned alot about mistakes in legion...then BFA yet kept adding more systems patch after patch, lately hearing interviews along with numerous starter systems, i question the bog that shadowlands will become with anema, covenants, runecraving, soulbinds, conduits, legendary gear already into beta, with DEVs already showing no matter what is being asked or issues identified is being PR explained away, sold and defended. it's will be going live.

it has worked since legion expac, as content and boosts MAUs which used in stock reports, requiring a huge MAU since sub numbers are no longer mentioned, along with money made from services, and cash shop. services show players will pay for boosts and reroll to attempt to get lucky, gamble on hopes of better RNG

[Clozer]

That percentage would less than one percent.
There are over 5000 guild progressing through current raid, assuming that they have a roster of 20 players = 100k players. That would be %1 IF wow had 10 million players which it doesn't. This doesn't even include people who only do pvp.
And you're comparing the fucking island grind to being locked to one ability across all your specs for a wide spectrum of different content such as M+, Raiding , BGs and Arena.
See? you're either delusional or stupid.

No, I compare Island Grind with raid preparation for those that really care. Since this is what you said. That more 1% of players care about those things. Then I said I highly doubt that 1% of players are preparing to the limit and do everything possible to upgrade - you need to do grind 8 hours of Islands a day to do so.

So the point stands. Why would someone who's not doing everything possible to fully upgrade their character in the first place care about a minor performance difference in their covenant ability?

And imagine thinking that guilds that arent even 4/12 care at all about anything like this. Not even in the slightest. Look through guilds at 1,5k range and there are dozen of raiders that did their last vision 5 months ago. BUT THEY WILL CARE ABOUT THEIR COVENANT ABILITY BEING SLIGHTLY WORSE IN THAT ONE FIGHT!!11!!!!

Delusional indeed.

[Azerate]

You have to be fucking delusional if you believe only %1 of playerbase care about doing their best performance.

I didn't insult anyone in my post, and certainly not you. No idea why you thought you are entitled to insult me.

No, I don't believe that 1% of the playerbase cares about their performance. But it is probably about 1% of people who will literally regrind mythic+ dungeons every week to change 1 relic thingie in their new talent system like Preach claims people do in his video. Caring about your performance doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend 20 hours every week just to gain 0,001% increase in different content types.

[Orwell7]

And ofc the covenants are exclusively only about those two abilities, I see.

Hehe I see that your discussion culture is happen to be in it's infancy, but I won't give up

Basically yes, the main discussion about switching covenant's freely is not about transmogs and toys, but what's defining the gameplay of everyone.
2 abilities per covenant, plus Soulbinds and their respective Conduits are what's the topic of discussion right now, I really hope you are aware of that!

However, if you want to broaden the spectrum of Classes vs. Covenants, then I raise you all the class-exclusive transmogs which has accumulated over the years. All previous raid, dungeon and pvp sets are PART of that a Class are. Can we agree that those are, too, much different than all of Covenants in themselves?

Or, if you are still offensive about it, let me hear your thoughts about this!

[Louz]

Hehe I see that your discussion culture is happen to be in it's infancy, but I won't give up

Basically yes, the main discussion about switching covenant's freely is not about transmogs and toys, but what's defining the gameplay of everyone.
2 abilities per covenant, plus Soulbinds and their respective Conduits are what's the topic of discussion right now, I really hope you are aware of that!

However, if you want to broaden the spectrum of Classes vs. Covenants, then I raise you all the class-exclusive transmogs which has accumulated over the years. All previous raid, dungeon and pvp sets are PART of that a Class are. Can we agree that those are, too, much different than all of Covenants in themselves?

Or, if you are still offensive about it, let me hear your thoughts about this!

The main discussion is that people are bitching for sake of bitching. Some even have their livelihood based on it.

[MrKnubbles]

[QUOTE=Saltysquidoon;52493664]I don't think those words mean what you think they mean- - - Updated - - -

I see what you're saying but also keep in mind that there hasn't been a final balance pass yet. I don't see the point in complaining about something that's unfinished. It just makes you look silly when it's done.

[cparle87]

The term "cave" was used by Selastan in his reply, not by Preach himself. That's the reason I put it in quotes. The actual headline was "Blizzard Listens and ACTS." The rest of the language was similarly neutral, if not positive.

So, yeah. Good example of loaded language at Preach's expense to negatively paint a picture - so successfully that it sent the wrong message to you, someone who wasn't as informed.

Basically, so many people look to any criticism or analysis of design as negative, even when the voice is attempting to be positive within the community. "Don't ask questions. Just consume product and get excited for next product."



No arguments there. I think it's important to not drown out legitimate criticism if it can make something even better, though.

I never said anything about Preach. I was responding to you, and the guy you were responding to, I guess. And pointing out that even when Blizzard does what they want they find a way to put a negative spin on it.


"Basically, so many people look to any criticism or analysis of design as negative, even when the voice is attempting to be positive within the community. "Don't ask questions. Just consume product and get excited for next product."

Don't be coy. Saying Blizzard "caved" is inherently negative. Don't try to pass it off as positive. "Blizz changed their mind." "Blizz listened to feedback." These are positive. "Blizz caved." This is negative.

[ClassicPeon]

When are people not bitter towards current and future content...?

Also, back to only getting your talking points from Preach I see.

Pretty hard to find someone more neutral(imo) at the moment.

Bell'is obviously in it for the money alone now. I mean look at how he is miling that Ion interview. Its pretty insane actually.

Tali is just one of the absolute most toxic people out there and he is a major shill to boot.

Who do you watch thats so genuine?

[Toybox]

Yep this is WoW's toxic choice. The devs can either cater to the top 1% of raiders who want to be 100% optimal at everything at all times by letting you hot swap everything on the fly, or cater to the people that want customization and player choice to matter again.

So the way you give people customization is by limiting their ability to customize? I really don't understand what you're getting at. If you want to pick a covenant & stick with it, why does it matter if someone else wants to change theirs?

(I'm cautiously optimistic for Shadowlands as a whole, but this system definitely concerns me).

[Vakir]

Don't be coy. Saying Blizzard "caved" is inherently negative. Don't try to pass it off as positive. "Blizz changed their mind." "Blizz listened to feedback." These are positive. "Blizz caved." This is negative.

You're still missing the point. I never said Blizzard caved either. I know you said nothing about Preach, but you're talking about a series of quoted posts where that was the entire trajectory of the conversation.

1. Selastan posted saying Preach is always negative and toxic.
2. I posted examples where he was not. One of the videos stated that "Blizzard is listening to feedback" in a positive manner.
3. Selastan replied, responding that "Of course he's happy that Blizzard caved to their hardcore demands." Their words, not mine.
4. I replied to this stating that the feedback they were responding to - taking away hard timers on Torghast and helping the Enhancement spec - were unanimously good changes and not hardcore based at all. When I put caved, it was in quotations, because I was sarcastically noting that they were using the term to frame feedback in an inherently negative way. Anything can be spun as such.

Then you came in stating that it's shitty to use the term that they "caved." I agree. Caved implies it's some kind of battle. They listened to feedback and it's been pretty good through Alpha up to this point.

We clear now?

[Saltysquidoon]

Like it did back in the old times. The times where, despite what nay sayers said once upon a time, you can play maximum unoptimal and still beat the content see: 40 gearless players beating Onyxia.

I want choices to matter, like that time you could beat ony with a naked raid and a pet tanking. What's the choice that matters here when literally everything down to classes and gear don't matter?

I see what you're saying but also keep in mind that there hasn't been a final balance pass yet. I don't see the point in complaining about something that's unfinished. It just makes you look silly when it's done.

I'm willing to plant my flag on the "blizzard will fuck it up" side of the argument here, and not even because it's blizzard. It's just impossible to balance a single ability to be equally good across potentially three different roles in potentially three different types of content.

[Vakir]

I see what you're saying but also keep in mind that there hasn't been a final balance pass yet. I don't see the point in complaining about something that's unfinished. It just makes you look silly when it's done.

People may look silly when it's done, but apparently every single other person defending systems that were criticized and released without change is incapable of feeling silly. Or, you know, incapable of learning.

[tylenol]

[QUOTE=MrKnubbles;52495146]

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean- - - Updated - - -

I see what you're saying but also keep in mind that there hasn't been a final balance pass yet. I don't see the point in complaining about something that's unfinished. It just makes you look silly when it's done.

Yep, no final balance patch yet...

1 month later, no final balance patch yet

Launch, wait for 9.3, wait for 10, it's only alpha, beta...

Same old shit, different expansion and we get azerite gear...

[Soon-TM]

It's just impossible to balance a single ability to be equally good across potentially three different roles in potentially three different types of content.

This is the crux of the issue. And it's especially rich that the ones favouring the current iteration of covenants... seem to be folks who play at a level where balance doesn't mean jack to begin with.

[Accendor]

Trying to do your best performance in form of gear and preperation means grinding islands 8 hours a day. I doubt that even 0.00000000000000000000001% of players care.

Just join a round of LFR and you will find 95% of the player base and then come here again and say that these players care.

There is a reason sites like raidbots and bloodmallet can exist, you know? Those are not welfare organisations. They have A LOT of people attending, much much more than 1% of the playerbase would account for.

Anecdotal evidence: I did over 200m+ on at least +10/15 during BfA. Since my work sheduke lines up badly with my guild, I did the vast majority of them with randoms. Not once I was in a group with the same player, but all of them clearly cared about min/max.

Sure, more people do the easier cintent, but stop throwing around numbers like 1% or 95%. Way more people care than you can imagine. Is it the majority? Most likely not, but it is still way more than 1%.

[oplawlz]

I see what you're saying but also keep in mind that there hasn't been a final balance pass yet. I don't see the point in complaining about something that's unfinished. It just makes you look silly when it's done.

Has this ever actually happened in WoW? Like, has anything players tried to warn blizzard was terrible ever turned out to be good "when it's done"? It seems to me the only time systems with massively negative responses on the ptr didn't end in disaster is when Bliz listened to players and fixed said systems.

[Clozer]

There is a reason sites like raidbots and bloodmallet can exist, you know? Those are not welfare organisations. They have A LOT of people attending, much much more than 1% of the playerbase would account for.

Anecdotal evidence: I did over 200m+ on at least +10/15 during BfA. Since my work sheduke lines up badly with my guild, I did the vast majority of them with randoms. Not once I was in a group with the same player, but all of them clearly cared about min/max.

Sure, more people do the easier cintent, but stop throwing around numbers like 1% or 95%. Way more people care than you can imagine. Is it the majority? Most likely not, but it is still way more than 1%.

Trying to do more dps != trying to do everything possible to upgrade your character. I try to do everything that's reasonable, but yet I could do so much more. And players who are not in that tiny fraction of players that actually do everything possible - have no right to complain about such a minor performance loss on a few fights that the difference between those shitty abilities bring.

[TheLucky1]

This will go like azerite armor and legiondaries (which preach was right about in his alpha/beta feedback back then too.)

So 9.0 will have the flaws pointed out and 9.1 will partially fix it, then 9.3 will finally fix it.

Players (even a big chunk of the 99% that don't need it to beat their chosen content) just care way too much about min-maxing and being optimal for every situation since years now, a system like that is not balance-able even if you put a dozen math and IT profs onto it, bfa and Legion have perfectly shown that not only the >>>upper 1%<<< care about it and thus the systems were altered.

I like the pen&paper analogy's some guys made here for the system but i'll call it now, even though the masses could care less about it a big part still will.

[Accendor]

Trying to do more dps != trying to do everything possible to upgrade your character. I try to do everything that's reasonable, but yet I could do so much more. And players who are not in that tiny fraction of players that actually do everything possible - have no right to complain about such a minor performance loss on a few fights that the difference between those shitty abilities bring.

They are going to be core abilities tho, that's the whole point