A time skip in 10.0 would make Tinkers possible.

[Triceron]

Hey look the same haters are back to harass Teriz for literally anything he says!

Hey look! Another Tinker Teriz fanboy!

[Teriz]

It seems Blizzard has already shown that they've decided it's not worth doing an Undermine expansion over an Alternate Reality Draenor, a Legion Invasion, a World War expansion, and now venturing into Shadowlands. I've made this point as far back as 6 years ago when this whole topic of Tinkers came up, that their ties to Goblins and Gnomes ultimately holds them back, and so far I don't think that's only opinion since what we're seeing is pretty indicative of this.

“We haven’t gotten around to expansion x yet“ does not equal “We have no intention of ever doing expansion x”

[Triceron]

“We haven’t gotten around to expansion x yet“ does not equal “We have no intention of ever doing expansion x”

Likewise, 'It was planned in Vanilla' does not equal 'We have intention of doing that expansion'.

I'd like to imagine we're getting real close to having Tinkers, but every step forward ends up having two steps back when it comes to anything close to this theme.

We see Blackfuse's many contraptions. We have the Iron Horde literally pave the way for brown orcs with an affinity of creating siege machines and weaponry. We have Mekkatorque in an in-game cinematic. We have a whole nation of Mechagnomes now too. And at a point where an expansion ushering in a Tinker would make perfect sense, we get Shadowlands instead.

[Teriz]

You are once again being a tremendous hypocrite. you said NPCs didn't matter and now you want NPC examples of goblins and gnome warriors. Whether or not there are any NPCs is 100% irrelevant. If your logic about them being tinkers because they are physically weak held any water then they wouldn't have access to warrior. The fact that you're saying it's basically not canon means that any race can be tinkers despite there being no NPCs from other races being Tinkers. Hilarious how you literally disprove your own points.

Nonsense. I said that ONE example of a Forsaken using Tinker abilities while under the direct command of a prominent Goblin lore figure does not mean that Forsaken should be a Tinker race. We need more evidence which you have failed to provide since.

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Likewise, 'It was planned in Vanilla' does not equal 'We have intention of doing that expansion'.

I'd like to imagine we're getting real close to having Tinkers, but every step forward ends up having two steps back when it comes to anything close to this theme.

We see Blackfuse's many contraptions. We have the Iron Horde literally pave the way for brown orcs with an affinity of creating siege machines and weaponry. We have Mekkatorque in an in-game cinematic. We have a whole nation of Mechagnomes now too. And at a point where an expansion ushering in a Tinker would make perfect sense, we get Shadowlands instead.

If Blizzard intends to make more expansions, by sheer process of elimination they will eventually hit an expansion favorable to Tinkers.

[TheRevenantHero]

Nonsense. I said that ONE example of a Forsaken using Tinker abilities while under the direct command of a prominent Goblin lore figure does not mean that Forsaken should be a Tinker race. We need more evidence which you have failed to provide since.

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If Blizzard intends to make more expansions, by sheer process of elimination they will eventually hit an expansion favorable to Tinkers.

It's example enough showing that other races are capable. You're just doing mental gymnastics to not agree because then you'd have to admit you're wrong. And we all know you'd have an aneurism trying to admit you're wrong. But it doesn't fucking matter if there are lore figures or not. That doesn't immediately mean a race can be that class. Also, in Kezan there is a goblin training dummy for warriors that teaches them how to be warriors. If they couldn't be warriors then that wouldn't exist. So once again....you're fucking wrong about goblins not being warriors. OH and then there's Bilban Tosslespanner who is ALSO a warrior and a gnome. So once again, you're wrong as fuck.

[Triceron]

If Blizzard intends to make more expansions, by sheer process of elimination they will eventually hit an expansion favorable to Tinkers.

That's kind of an odd assessment considering so far we've gotten two expansions regarding the Legion, two expansions regarding Draenor/Outland, and now two expansions regarding the Undead.

I don't think process of elimination works when popular themes aren't being eliminated.

[Ielenia]

No you are wrong.

I'm not wrong. Warcraft is a high-fantasy game. Technology is just 'flavor'. Again: 80% (at least) of the game is pure fantasy. The playable classes of the game are almost purely fantasy-based.

That's like saying Warcraft 2 is a naval battle game because in a few of the game maps you get to build ships.

[Teriz]

It's example enough showing that other races are capable. You're just doing mental gymnastics to not agree because then you'd have to admit you're wrong. And we all know you'd have an aneurism trying to admit you're wrong. But it doesn't fucking matter if there are lore figures or not. That doesn't immediately mean a race can be that class. Also, in Kezan there is a goblin training dummy for warriors that teaches them how to be warriors. If they couldn't be warriors then that wouldn't exist. So once again....you're fucking wrong about goblins not being warriors. OH and then there's Bilban Tosslespanner who is ALSO a warrior and a gnome. So once again, you're wrong as fuck.

It kind of does, because it means that Lady Sena is a unique case. Again, if what you say is true, it shouldn’t be too hard to find other examples right?

Also I’m going to need a link to Biban Tosslespanner.

[TheRevenantHero]

It kind of does, because it means that Lady Sena is a unique case. Again, if what you say is true, it shouldn’t be too hard to find other examples right?

Also I’m going to need a link to Biban Tosslespanner.

I don't need more examples. You literally only wanted ONE. Since there being only ONE example is enough to justify Tinkers being exclusive to the shitty races. Lady Sena is an example. You can make the bull shit claim that she's a unique case but there is nothing proving that. So it is, as I said, bull shit.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Bilban_Tosslespanner

[Teriz]

I don't need more examples. You literally only wanted ONE. Since there being only ONE example is enough to justify Tinkers being exclusive to the shitty races. Lady Sena is an example. You can make the bull shit claim that she's a unique case but there is nothing proving that. So it is, as I said, bull shit.

Lady Sena is also a Forsaken that is under extreme circumstances not common among the Forsaken race. In order for her to be a harbinger for Forsaken Tinkers, we would need a group of Forsaken in the employment of Goblins, and that is highly unlikely to be the case. After all, Lady Sena has been around since Vanilla.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Bilban_Tosslespanner

That is a trainer, not a lore character.

[Ielenia]

there was no lore saying illidan could have not trained other races, simple as that

Then why didn't he? Especially considering that Illidan only allowed five blood elves to be trained initially, and only after Kael'Thas proved their worth to him.

you are oversimplifying a playable class to "technology is accessible to everyone" like saying anyone can be a top hacker just because anyone have a computer and internet

I mean... they can, if they dedicate themselves to it. I mean, can you give me a solid reason why gnome #19754 can be a tinker but human #50174 cannot?

they write him to be like that, nothing in wc3 showed illidan as xenophobic, he fucking female humans in black temple also contradict this

... You're saying just because Illidan seeks carnal pleasure with females of other races, it means he's willing to share his secrets with members of said races? Didn't you know that, in real life. in the old days of slavery, slave owners would have sex (to avoid using stronger words) with their slaves? And that didn't mean that they considered those slaves to be anything more than "lowly slaves" or "property".

you are again, ignoring the fact that there still dangerous threats to azeroth that The demon hunters can aid,

And you are, again, ignoring the fact that the demon hunters are not the only defenders of Azeroth, or even comprise to be a significant number of them. Besides, we have new defenders arising all the time in the form of new priests, mages, paladins, etc. Again: the demon hunter training process is very dangerous with a high mortality rate. The "defenders of Azeroth" seems to be much more about the current demon hunters than any actual training of new demon hunters. Because people have no reason to become demon hunters.

there was less dangerous ways to fight the legion instead of being a DH but they did anyway, lets not be hypocrite here and say now its "too far"

Sounds how little you know of the lore. To those who lost everything to the demons and wanted revenge, no one seemed to be taking the demon threat as seriously as Illidan, at the time, and he promised the revenge those poor souls thirsted for.

no one is talking about "the only ones" or "more powerful" the double standard is you being ok in locking one class by X reasons and not the other excluding those very X reasons

But there are absolute zero reasons why one would want to be a demon hunter if the goal is to "defend Azeroth".

totally pointless

Pointless? Pointless!? Care to explain why they are pointless?

except elves and DH am i right? again double standards

Ah, the dishonesty:

Irrelevant. A race, as a whole, doesn't have to have "oriented" toward something to be able to do said something. By that reasoning, gnomes could not be any spellcaster class, considering how their race has "zero magic inclination". And by that logic, NIGHT ELVES could not be demon hunters, considering their race has zero inclination toward demons.

At least try to pretend you read the full argument, next time. It'll help you look less dishonest.

just because there is a high mortality rate don't mean it don't make sense to train more

do you seen the world? sylvanas just shatter the barrier between realms, the world is in jeopardy, training high elite soldiers is a logic thing to do

Except demon hunters are not a boon against this kind of threat. Demon hunters are a highly specialized kind of troop that is basically as useless as your common foot soldier against this threat.

nonsense

the same way they write illidan to be xenophobic they could write the goblins and gnomes to be more recluse to their most prized secrets and tools

Except that would be a massive retcon of current lore. We have gnome engineer trainers everywhere, and as engineers we already build mechs, teleporters, etc.

this thing that you are putting up of high mortality is totally pointless,

Five blood elves went to train with Illidan. Three died, one went insane. Only one survived, and by all accounts it seems it was because he was "gifted" in some way.

is like saying it make no sense to create more DKs, and here you got more

Except there really wasn't any reason to create more death knights, until Sylvanas made a bid for power that could erase all life on Azeroth.

And again, isn't so simple as "learning engineering" you are over simplifying.

But it is as simple as "learning engineering". Why wouldn't it be?

[Teriz]

That's kind of an odd assessment considering so far we've gotten two expansions regarding the Legion, two expansions regarding Draenor/Outland, and now two expansions regarding the Undead.

I don't think process of elimination works when popular themes aren't being eliminated.

Again, you're adding your own personal bias and assumptions to this instead of verifiable fact. Undead, the Legion, and Outland are pretty major themes in Warcraft, so obviously their elements will pop up repeatedly in multiple expansions.

Technology has also popped up over and over again in multiple expansions.

[TheRevenantHero]

Lady Sena is also a Forsaken that is under extreme circumstances not common among the Forsaken race. In order for her to be a harbinger for Forsaken Tinkers, we would need a group of Forsaken in the employment of Goblins, and that is highly unlikely to be the case. After all, Lady Sena has been around since Vanilla.



That is a trainer, not a lore character.

You are literally splitting fucking hairs. It doesn't need to be a major lore character. It's still an example. Also, all named NPCs are considered to be part of the lore no matter how small. So you saying that Bilban doesn't is literally just you spouting bull shit to avoid saying you're wrong.

Your logic behind Lady Sena not counting as a tinker is so fucking asinine. You've gone from saying two major lore characters being Tinkers justifies the whole race being tinkers to say that there needs to be entire groups that are tinkers for it to be justified. Stop pushing the fucking goalposts. You're 100% wrong about all your points. There doesn't need to be entire groups since you've used just one NPC to justify the entire race in the past. A named NPC is a lore figure whether you want to acknowledge it or not. You're constantly changing the prerequisites to how a race could be a tinker and it's exhausting. Just admit you have bias for the short races and be done with it.

[Ielenia]

Like I said, not worth digging to find it if you're not willing to provide it.

I did provide it. Two of those are on my sig.

Yes, a generic Monk, not the WoW variety that at least has some interesting quirky flavor to it.

But it wouldn't be a generic monk. You'd still have the August Celestials and the mist-weaving.

I already answered this, and once again you ignore the Druid example because it proves you wrong.

It doesn't "prove me wrong" whatsoever. The druids have different shapes and colors because the magic of the druids transforms their bodies. And since they have different bodies and colors, it makes sense why the druid forms would have different colors. A tech class does not have this luxury, as the mechs aren't their bodies, transformed.

A goblin tinker's abilities would look just like a human tinker's abilities in the same vein that a goblin mage's fireball looks just like an orc mage's fireball.

And funny how you accuse me of ignoring the druid example "because it proves me wrong" (newsflash: it doesn't), but here you are, ignoring the monk example.

LoL! You said the Blizzard employee was LYING because he proved your assumption wrong. Please stop trying to rewrite history.

Did I? When?

You have no idea why Blizzard designs classes, so stop with your nonsense.

Right back atcha~

This line of yours shows such a severe lack of self-awareness it's downright amazing.

Why wouldn't other races go the tech route? Because they don't need to. They have either magic or physical power to protect themselves.

And gnomes have magic power to protect themselves, so why would they be tinkers?

[Dartz1979]

I don't like the idea of a time skip my current favorite women lore characters would be gone

[Teriz]

You are literally splitting fucking hairs. It doesn't need to be a major lore character. It's still an example. Also, all named NPCs are considered to be part of the lore no matter how small. So you saying that Bilban doesn't is literally just you spouting bull shit to avoid saying you're wrong.

Yeah no. Bilban is literally just an NPC with no backstory, no history, etc. He's just a trainer who is there because Gnomes can play as warriors. When I say lore characters, I'm talking about Varian, Thrall, Jaina, etc. actual characters within the game itself.

Your logic behind Lady Sena not counting as a tinker is so fucking asinine. You've gone from saying two major lore characters being Tinkers justifies the whole race being tinkers to say that there needs to be entire groups that are tinkers for it to be justified. Stop pushing the fucking goalposts. You're 100% wrong about all your points. There doesn't need to be entire groups since you've used just one NPC to justify the entire race in the past. A named NPC is a lore figure whether you want to acknowledge it or not. You're constantly changing the prerequisites to how a race could be a tinker and it's exhausting. Just admit you have bias for the short races and be done with it.

Yes, Mekkatorque, Gazlowe, and Blackfuse justify a Tinker class because they are the most prominent characters from those respective races, and they're free of any extraordinary circumstances that explain their existence. Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are super engineers that both build mech suits with unique weaponry. Gazlowe hasn't been established to be a super engineer, but he has characteristics that match those previous examples. Further, you have the entire racial lore behind those races which also support a technology theme. So the question is why is there no class to match those characters?

Lady Sena is simply not in that category.

[Sathen]

Lady Sena is also a Forsaken that is under extreme circumstances not common among the Forsaken race. In order for her to be a harbinger for Forsaken Tinkers, we would need a group of Forsaken in the employment of Goblins, and that is highly unlikely to be the case. After all, Lady Sena has been around since Vanilla.



That is a trainer, not a lore character.

You have literally used Tinkerin' Taji in your reasoning why Vulpera can be tinkers...

Post 271 of this thread, btw.

[Teriz]

I did provide it. Two of those are on my sig.

Uh huh.

But it wouldn't be a generic monk. You'd still have the August Celestials and the mist-weaving.

And it would still be a generic Monk with kicks and punches. It is the brewing aspect that makes the WoW monk unique.

It doesn't "prove me wrong" whatsoever. The druids have different shapes and colors because the magic of the druids transforms their bodies. And since they have different bodies and colors, it makes sense why the druid forms would have different colors. A tech class does not have this luxury, as the mechs aren't their bodies, transformed.

You're dodging the point again. No one asked WHY Druids have different forms for different races. The POINT is that if Druid races all shared the exact same form, the class would feel generic to players.

And funny how you accuse me of ignoring the druid example "because it proves me wrong" (newsflash: it doesn't), but here you are, ignoring the monk example.

Really? You ignored it again.

And gnomes have magic power to protect themselves, so why would they be tinkers?

Magic isn't as prominent in Gnome society as technology, so either that means that Gnome mages aren't as powerful as other types of Mages, or not many Gnomes are capable of becoming Mages. Either way, its pretty clear that Gnomes didn't build a magic-based society like other races did.

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You have literally used Tinkerin' Taji in your reasoning why Vulpera can be tinkers...

Post 271 of this thread, btw.

Tinkerin' Taji isn't a Vulpera under extreme circumstances. He's just a Vulpera who Tinkers.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yeah no. Bilban is literally just an NPC with no backstory, no history, etc. He's just a trainer who is there because Gnomes can play as warriors. When I say lore characters, I'm talking about Varian, Thrall, Jaina, etc. actual characters within the game itself.



Yes, Mekkatorque, Gazlowe, and Blackfuse justify a Tinker class because they are the most prominent characters from those respective races, and they're free of any extraordinary circumstances that explain their existence. Mekkatorque and Blackfuse are super engineers that both build mech suits with unique weaponry. Gazlowe hasn't been established to be a super engineer, but he has characteristics that match those previous examples. Further, you have the entire racial lore behind those races which also support a technology theme. So the question is why is there no class to match those characters?

Lady Sena is simply not in that category.

That is purely just your bull shit pushing of the goalposts. Bilban 100% counts. You're literally only saying he doesn't because it would throw your entire argument about the little races needing tinkers to be strong in the fucking trash where it belongs.

The lore characters you mention aren't groups. If they count as individuals then Lady Sena counts. You're just flat out wrong. And also, by this dumbass logic, Vulpera simply can't be tinkers because there isn't a single prominent Vulpera lore figure that is a tinker. But I'm sure you'll use some batshit insane mental gymnastics to justify Vulpera being Tinkers because you're lifeblood is hypocrisy.

[Sathen]

Uh huh.



And it would still be a generic Monk with kicks and punches. It is the brewing aspect that makes the WoW monk unique.



You're dodging the point again. No one asked WHY Druids have different forms for different races. The POINT is that if Druid races all shared the exact same form, the class would feel generic to players.



Really? You ignored it again.



Magic isn't as prominent in Gnome society as technology, so either that means that Gnome mages aren't as powerful as other types of Mages, or not many Gnomes are capable of becoming Mages. Either way, its pretty clear that Gnomes didn't build a magic-based society like other races did.

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Tinkerin' Taji isn't a Vulpera under extreme circumstances. He's just a Vulpera who Tinkers.

But I would say he's on the same level as Biban Tosslespanner, who you are discrediting.