Isn't there an obvious solution to the "Mandatory covenants" issue?

[Lolites]

So a Blood Death Knight being in the Kyrian Covenant breaks your immersion then. Cause being in a Covenant doesn't remove your class and spec abilities.

to me, as a main DK? yes, incredibly, thats why my dk will be necrolord
your point being? if there is something breaking immersion, lets go step further and break it more, or what?

[FlubberPuddy]

Except, despite what big blue is saying, this is nothing like picking a class. You have two gameplay affecting abilities and three trees that provide largely flat % bonuses. Soulbinds are the biggest misleading thing of them all, because if you look at it, the three choices for one Covenant versus another equates to largely the same percentages across the board. So Necrolord mages and Kyrian mages will not see a statistically meaningful difference in throughput from their different Soulbinds.

So what you are arguing, is two buttons (class ability and covenant ability) and aesthetics are as meaningful as picking a paladin vs a mage? You realize how ludicrous this argument sounds.

You realize that your original post was complaining about liking so much the aesthetic of a covenant but not the single ability that's given, and now you're trying to focus on solely the abilities given (and their number) vs the gameplay between a Paladin vs Mage.

Makes it seem like you actually don't care for aesthetics as you initially seemed to and if that is the case then pick the ability you'll be satisfied with. Again, it actually works against you that picking a Paladin vs a Mage is more impactful and yet you are not (among others of your ilk) shouting to the rooftops that our characters should be able to switch Classes on the fly.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

to me, as a main DK? yes, incredibly, thats why my dk will be necrolord
your point being? if there is something breaking immersion, lets go step further and break it more, or what?

My point is that you're not making any actual argument against allowing players to freely switch their Covenant, but you're still saying they shouldn't be allowed to freely switch Covenants.

[Lolites]

If this is your argument then it would make more sense for you to be arguing for classes being restricted to specific Covenants, because the type of immersion breaking you just used as an example is going to happen with the current system.

fair point, thing is there is a story behind why you can be "angel blood DK" so its not breaking the immersion as much as working with one covenant and using spels of other... especialy since they actualy fight among themselves (at least to extend)...

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My point is that you're not making any actual argument against allowing players to freely switch their Covenant, but you're still saying they shouldn't be allowed to freely switch Covenants.

actualy, i didnt say that, i said thats my preference but i wont shed any tears if they change it...
and i DO make arguments, just bcs you dont like them or disagree or dont understand them doesnt mean they dont exist...

[VinceVega]

for me that would work too, especialy since there is other covenant stuff related to power anyway, but i know they just wont do that, thats too much work so if its immersion or minmaxing i would go for immersion, but as i said, wont really care if they unlock it (especialy since my DK ability for necrolords is soo goddamn useless for bosses)
thing is, people are usualy thinking in extremes, so thats not gonna do it for most... doesnt matter anyway, blizz seems to be adamant on trying it their way, which means at earliest theyll change it in 9.1

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people in angaelic kyrian armor throwing bones and spiling blood around you perhaps?

In the end everyone in here will play anyway. People so invested in what the game does are the same as me... a bit addicted^^
I quit for now so i can justify my addiction in the end of 2020^^
And if they don't change it... fine... i will probably take what it best for raiding ( with clenched teeth as this is probably venthyr...) and kiss PVP and Mythic+ high level goodbye... maybe i have more tuime for real life then at least.

[FlubberPuddy]

On my server, top rio performer are around 4k and even more.

So it depends when you got that 2k, 4 months ago or now ?

I achieved 2k/KSM a month ago, but only started pushing a couple months prior to that. When I first achieved it I was #58 Paladin for my server. Since then I haven't cared to go above 15+ for the week (because I only wanted to get r4 focus iris for the cosmetic) and I am now #72 Paladin for my server.

so in 1 month there were less than 20 people that achieved a higher r.io score than me.

R.IO is showing that out of the entire world (all regions) my ranked score is in the top 3.25% for all Paladins for M+ if we are to assume 1 million players for the game as a whole.

WoW most likely has 2-5 million players (at least more than 1 million for sure), which means I'd be even higher up among the Paladin playerbase the larger the playerbase gets.

So again, I am speaking about the reality of the situation which is that there's a fuck ton of players that don't even play above queueable content.

EDIT: I miscalculated and used r.IO's all Paladin specs number. For Ret specifically I am in the top 0.8% given a 1 million playerbase for M+. Pretty koo!

[TEHPALLYTANK]

actualy, i didnt say that, i said thats my preference but i wont shed any tears if they change it...
and i DO make arguments, just bcs you dont like them or disagree or dont understand them doesnt mean they dont exist...

Your opinion or personal preference is not an argument, please stop pretending that it is.

[taishar68]

Except, despite what big blue is saying, this is nothing like picking a class. You have two gameplay affecting abilities and three trees that provide largely flat % bonuses. Soulbinds are the biggest misleading thing of them all, because if you look at it, the three choices for one Covenant versus another equates to largely the same percentages across the board. So Necrolord mages and Kyrian mages will not see a statistically meaningful difference in throughput from their different Soulbinds.

So what you are arguing, is two buttons (class ability and covenant ability) and aesthetics are as meaningful as picking a paladin vs a mage? You realize how ludicrous this argument sounds.

The only change necessary is class abilities. Soulbinds are whatever and will affect gameplay very little unless you just don't use them. The weekly events of covenants are going to essentially the same reward, you just get to it a different way. The covenant abilities could be ignored as the 3 non Venthyr offer about similar usefulness. It is only the covenant class abilities that is causing this much drama.

I'd argue that the largest bone of contention is the Venthyr Door of Shadows and its impact on M+ groups. I think when it comes to class abilities there is definitely an argument between PvE and PvP, but for what I've read the ability to skip in M+ is generating a great deal of concern.

[FlubberPuddy]

Also having 4k io doesn't matter. Blizzard doesn't balance around whether someone can do +20s across the board (or whatever it is for 4k io). Ion even said recently they wouldn't be increasing any rewards past +15 and that those who decide to push further do so for their own competitive community gains which Blizzard keeps their hands off of.

So again, stop trying to act as if what the sub 1% cares about is what the majority of the playerbase cares about. That's all I'm trying to say. And this is coming from someone that's achieved a high r.IO, and mythic raids.

[Lolites]

In the end everyone in here will play anyway. People so invested in what the game does are the same as me... a bit addicted^^
I quit for now so i can justify my addiction in the end of 2020^^
And if they don't change it... fine... i will probably take what it best for raiding ( with clenched teeth as this is probably venthyr...) and kiss PVP and Mythic+ high level goodbye... maybe i have more tuime for real life then at least.

oh im sure they will, and im sure its pointles what people want/dont want here as this is just so incredibly small part of playerbase, people here just like to overestimate their importance, most often by saying "EVERYONE/majority agrees on this" when in fact its only them and their dog
i made my choice as soon as i saw the necrolord plate in announcement, so its no brainer for me ill just have to hope their ability is much more useless in m+ and raids than it seems to be

[bloodwulf]

You realize that your original post was complaining about liking so much the aesthetic of a covenant but not the single ability that's given, and now you're trying to focus on solely the abilities given (and their number) vs the gameplay between a Paladin vs Mage.

Makes it seem like you actually don't care for aesthetics as you initially seemed to and if that is the case then pick the ability you'll be satisfied with. Again, it actually works against you that picking a Paladin vs a Mage is more impactful and yet you are not (among others of your ilk) shouting to the rooftops that our characters should be able to switch Classes on the fly.

You must be struggling to follow the conversation. I personally want the aesthetics of the Venthyr but do not want an ability that largely does not need to be placed on my action bar for many fights (mage class ability). My second response is strictly arguing how they are nothing comparable to picking a class. I was even arguing that soulbinds dont influence my decision at all. My problem is if i pick the aesthetic i like, i get punished with an ability that is largely nonfunctional.

You are still posting that Covenants = Class. They don't, they provide fixed aesthetics, and 2 buttons. If you think classes boil down to 2 buttons, i am sorry for the groups you play with. Blizzard can claim all they want that they are comparable to class choice, but this will just be another instance of Blizzard being wrong, much like RNG legos, Azerite Powers, and Corruption being RNG.

If you really wanted to compare covenants to anything currently in game, it would be races, as they all bring one button. And they can easily be changed (at a premium cost albeit), but the cost of $25 versus the time to reacquire Renown with your new covenant are not comparable. $25 is less than an hour of work for me, and you get no other penalty for the change of race. If you make Covenants require an hour of effort to bring up to speed of your previous, then it would a non-issue. But you will be harshly punished for switching and trying to switch back later, per Blizzard.

INB4, no i don't think it should be a pay function either.

[Lolites]

Your opinion or personal preference is not an argument, please stop pretending that it is.

your opinion that inability to minmax the hell out of game makes it worse is not argument either...
whatever, dont bother answer, you are on ignore already, i cant stand people who think their SUBJECTIVE OPINION is only truth and others people can go fuck themselves...

[Soon-TM]

I play a non-meta spec (Ret Paladin) and I've gotten 2k r.io with KSM through pugging. By yours and others notions if I'm not part of the meta I shouldn't even be able to do such a thing.

Ret paladin has been buffed to hell and back over the course of the xpac, and it is getting even better in SL. Now try something like shadow priest or enhancement

[bloodwulf]

I'd argue that the largest bone of contention is the Venthyr Door of Shadows and its impact on M+ groups. I think when it comes to class abilities there is definitely an argument between PvE and PvP, but for what I've read the ability to skip in M+ is generating a great deal of concern.

That is why i explicitly said the 3 non Venthyr offer similar usefulness. Door of Shadows appears pretty broke especially for less mobile spec/classes like Ret and DKs. But i honestly think by 9.1 Door of shadows will be at a 3min cd, and people will have largely forgotten about it outside of edge cases.

[Soon-TM]

people in angaelic kyrian armor throwing bones and spiling blood around you perhaps?

So a Kyrian DK would be immersion-breaking to you. Guess what, you are in for a rough ride in SL if these covenant skills are such a non-issue as some people are pretending. Btw, prepare to see a holy priest in full Venthyr set

[bloodwulf]

So a Kyrian DK would be immersion-breaking to you. Guess what, you are in for a rough ride in SL if these covenant skills are such a non-issue as some people are pretending. Btw, prepare to see a holy priest in full Venthyr set

I for one can't wait to see all the immersive Necrolord Paladins. I believe Necrolord is in appearance essentially the anathema of what a paladin is. Imagine if good ole Tirion was a Necrolord. RP brains exploded everywhere.

[FlubberPuddy]

You must be struggling to follow the conversation. I personally want the aesthetics of the Venthyr but do not want an ability that largely does not need to be placed on my action bar for many fights (mage class ability). My second response is strictly arguing how they are nothing comparable to picking a class. I was even arguing that soulbinds dont influence my decision at all. My problem is if i pick the aesthetic i like, i get punished with an ability that is largely nonfunctional.

You are still posting that Covenants = Class. They don't, they provide fixed aesthetics, and 2 buttons. If you think classes boil down to 2 buttons, i am sorry for the groups you play with. Blizzard can claim all they want that they are comparable to class choice, but this will just be another instance of Blizzard being wrong, much like RNG legos, Azerite Powers, and Corruption being RNG.

If you really wanted to compare covenants to anything currently in game, it would be races, as they all bring one button. And they can easily be changed (at a premium cost albeit), but the cost of $25 versus the time to reacquire Renown with your new covenant are not comparable. $25 is less than an hour of work for me, and you get no other penalty for the change of race. If you make Covenants require an hour of effort to bring up to speed of your previous, then it would a non-issue. But you will be harshly punished for switching and trying to switch back later, per Blizzard.

INB4, no i don't think it should be a pay function either.

I'm sharing what a Blizzard Developer said, you should maybe argue with them if you're still not getting it. It's not that classes boil down to 2 buttons it's the idea that you should not be treating picking a Covenant like picking a talent ability, you should treat it as an entire package of aesthetics/gameplay mixed in which is actually very comparable to picking a class.

They've also said that you will be able to have I think either a conduit or Legendary that can morph the covenant ability (example given was an AoE ability loses its AoE but gains a lot more Burst/Single-target) so even within a Covenant without having to go by the passive soulbinds, you can find morphs to your Covenant ability making it different than a plain single ability.

I think you're caught in your trap by bringing in aesthetics into the equation and then letting it be known aesthetics don't seem to matter much to you at all. That's why I say if this is the case then pick the ability you like best.

It's the difference between someone picking a Paladin over a Mage because they like their aesthetics vs someone picks the Mage over the Paladin because they prefer the Mage gameplay more. That person is stuck with all the aesthetics/ribbons/dressings that come along with the Mage despite basing their decision from a gameplay/mechanics standpoint.

Akin to what the Covenant system as is per Blizzard developers. Covenants are not supposed to be easily switchable, that's their entire point. It's a vocal minority of the community that hates this idea and thinks they should be easily switchable.

It's why I keep bringing up Classes. Where is this vocal community with the Classes switching on the fly or only requiring an hour to switch?

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Ret paladin has been buffed to hell and back over the course of the xpac, and it is getting even better in SL. Now try something like shadow priest or enhancement

Buffed to hell? Are Ret Paladins the #1 pick let alone the top 5 pick for m+ ? Because that's how everyone is treating Covenant abilities -> If I can't pick the BEST ability for every situation then it's absolute trash and no one will want me for pug groups!

[Lolites]

I for one can't wait to see all the immersive Necrolord Paladins. I believe Necrolord is in appearance essentially the anathema of what a paladin is. Imagine if good ole Tirion was a Necrolord. RP brains exploded everywhere.

thing is there is actual lore behind that, so is not as immersion breaking as if for example druid could out of the blue use shadow bolt...

[neocount]

Another option they could explore is having a 4th soulbind that was, essentially, an ambassador (for lack of a better term) that could unlock the ability to replace your covenant powers with those of another covenant.

[bloodwulf]

I'm sharing what a Blizzard Developer said, you should maybe argue with them if you're still not getting it. It's not that classes boil down to 2 buttons it's the idea that you should not be treating picking a Covenant like picking a talent ability, you should treat it as an entire package of aesthetics/gameplay mixed in which is actually very comparable to picking a class.

They've also said that you will be able to have I think either a conduit or Legendary that can morph the covenant ability (example given was an AoE ability loses its AoE but gains a lot more Burst/Single-target) so even within a Covenant without having to go by the passive soulbinds, you can find morphs to your Covenant ability making it different than a plain single ability.

I think you're caught in your trap by bringing in aesthetics into the equation and then letting it be known aesthetics don't seem to matter much to you at all. That's why I say if this is the case then pick the ability you like best.

It's the difference between someone picking a Paladin over a Mage because they like their aesthetics vs someone picks the Mage over the Paladin because they prefer the Mage gameplay more. That person is stuck with all the aesthetics/ribbons/dressings that come along with the Mage despite basing their decision from a gameplay/mechanics standpoint.

Akin to what the Covenant system as is per Blizzard developers. Covenants are not supposed to be easily switchable, that's their entire point. It's a vocal minority of the community that hates this idea and thinks they should be easily switchable.

It's why I keep bringing up Classes. Where is this vocal community with the Classes switching on the fly or only requiring an hour to switch?

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Buffed to hell? Are Ret Paladins the #1 pick let alone the top 5 pick for m+ ? Because that's how everyone is treating Covenant abilities -> If I can't pick the BEST ability for every situation then it's absolute trash and no one will want me for pug groups!

You keep acting like what i am saying is countering what i am saying...it doesn't. I am of the aesthetic camp, i think the choice should be visual only honestly. I just don't like that if make the choice i want, i am punished with a terrible spell (Mage Mirror spell).

Except for the aesthetics of class versus class, we have transmog that can literally negate that entirely. I can make my paladin look like a clothy and my mage look like an armored knight with gold. The covenant system entire locks their transmogs behind the choice. I want to the aesthetic of Venthyr for my elven mage cause it fits the entire image of him, but if i make that choice i am stuck with an ability that is largely nonfunctional as it stands in the content i play.