Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Felya]

What you fail to do, every time, is separate the peaceful protesters from the rioters. They are different groups of people. What the rioters did is wrong - violence is not ok. Let us know if you need further clarification on that point - I know it can be confusing when you're still chugging the kool-aid, eyes closed - it's tough to look around and see reality, when your dear leader tells you not to believe it.

Just another reminder... these rioters happened under Trump’s watch. He is the leader of the country and couldn’t do what Clinton did during Rodney King or Obama during Trayvon Martin. They yelled how Obama was placating protestors, but are now complaining that Trump not doing the same, resulting in riots, is someone else’s fault?

[Felya]

I feel like this needs to be said... because we heard it so often, before this year. @DocSavageFan, this is mostly for you... Trump is the president of the US... again, to reiterate... Trump is the president of the US.

There might be rioting and looting under democrats, like Trump ads try to scare you... but, there is rioting and looting under Trump. Not prediction or fortune telling... is... and he is inapt in dealing with it. The last thing a president should be doing during race protests, is accidentally tweet his supporters screaming “white power”. We had riots and looting, because of that level of incompetence in our president.

[DocSavageFan]

The fact that I used the word "Rioters" twice is a pretty clear indication that I did not miss that. Nobody likes or supports Rioters (Except @Rochana apparently). However, your attempt to lump the two together is not something most of us agree with.

Your logic goes like this.

Rioters = Bad
BLM = Rioters
BLM = Democrats

By transitive property, all democrats are bad and rioters, and anyone who disagrees with this logical assessment is supporting rioters.

Your logic is horrid and completely twisted. I'm embarrassed for you.

[Felya]

These rioters brought more positive change to the USA in a short period of time than voting ever will.

Uhm... there would be no riots or protesting without voting...

- - - Updated - - -

Your logic is horrid and completely twisted. I'm embarrassed for you.

These riots you are so scared of... are they happening under Trump or will happen under crazy liberals? Who is the president of US? If you fear these riots, how is 4 more years of the same, help? Isn’t that the definition of insanity?

[Thekri]

Maybe it's because Fuckida normally sees around 2.8K-3K~ pneumonia/influenza deaths per year, and they're over 6K-7ak already this year, depending on where you look.

Even when you account for the CDC counting covid deaths in both the pneumonia and covid category, and thus subtract covid numbers from pneumonia numbers, the excess deaths still don't align with previous years.

Covid deaths aren't lower in states that aren't NY, they're just more hidden in Red states. It's the same in TX. Hospitals are jam packed, but miraculously no-one is ever dead of covid.

Also a possibility, I haven't looked into it enough to say for certain that is a determinate cause, but it is plausible. Either way, case numbers for something like Covid are obviously always going to be hugely wrong, and death numbers even more so. I will definitely agree that comparing cases in situations like this is a very dicey proposition, because no two places are counting the same way. This applies to different nations even more so. We can just infer general trend lines.

[Breccia]

Pence is going to Louisiana, likely to ask how things are going in a deep South red state that only recently started a mask mandate and is seeing their second wave after the disaster that was Mardi Gras. Obviously, one of the things Pence, as head of the coronavirus task force...actually, we haven't heard much from them, have we? [url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/donald-trump-coronavirus-task-force/index.html]They've been sidelined as Trump pushes for reopening[/ulr] while Fauci hasn't talked to Trump in two months.

Anyhow, you'd think Pence would meet, amongst other people, the Louisiana AG, to discuss things like enforcement of mask mandates and large gathering bans. It makes sense. After all, look at what Maryland is doing:

The vast majority of bars and restaurants in our state are in compliance, but some are flagrantly violating the law and endangering public health. You have the responsibility to enforce these laws,

Violators should be warned, fined, have actions taken regarding their licenses, or closed if necessary. Local health departments, local liquor boards and inspectors, and local law enforcement agencies must work together to ensure public health is protected

See? That sounds like enforcement in action to me. So you'd think Pence would meet people in charge of enforcement wherever he goes, such as Louisiana. But he won't, because the AG tested positive and will be staying home.

Not a great sign.

Louisiana, shown here:



has not broken its record yet, otherwise @Benggaul would have mentioned it, but is definitely on an upswing. They also have a $250 hazard pay bonus for essential workers and seem to be literally bribing people to get tested using McDonalds Happy Meals. I hope these steps, plus the Pence visit, are evidence that they learned from their first wave and are trying to combat the second. Hospitalizations are up, positivity rate is up.

I want to see Louisiana recover. I saw what Katrina did to them firsthand -- the rampant neglect caused damage to their impoverished that lasts to this day. They don't deserve to be kicked while they're down.

But let's move to Virginia.

Last week, Rep. Morgan Griffith was at a meeting with his fellow Tea Party...I mean, Freedom Cockup...I mean, Freedom Caucus meeting, during which he said:

What happens when you don't go back to school? You have food insecurity. You have emotional problems that are not being addressed. There may be child abuse going on. Nobody's seeing it, nobody's paying attention. Parents are under a lot of stress. Kids may be left at home. Mom and Dad may have to go to work

Hmm. Kids have to go to school because, if they stay home, there might be child abuse. I'm not a psychologist, tho "Last Night Gus" is my favorite, but..if the parents were going to abuse the children when they were staying home, would sending them to school really have stopped them? And if so, why hasn't Griffith moved to ban summer break? Or weekends? Or, is he suggesting that there isn't abuse now, but if they stay home there would be? Because I haven't seen reports that say that. Has anyone seen reports saying child abuse went up due to stay-at-home orders? I'll give you a hint: No.

But maybe there is evidence not currently known to us. I'm sure Rep. Griffith will find it and display it soon. After all, he has plenty of time, he's self-isolating because he tested positive.

And we can keep going. Alabama just hit a record number of deaths. Alabama does not have a mask mandate, as evidenced by all these mayors and hospital employees demanding one. New York just added Minnesota, New Mexico, Ohio and Wisconsin to the quarantine list which means their positivity rate has all gone up. The military rate is growing faster than the civilian rate, too. Hospitals everywhere fear for the communities they serve as cases, hospitalizations, and deaths rise.

And Kushner's private reserve of PPE is running low.

See signature.

[Thekri]

Your logic is horrid and completely twisted. I'm embarrassed for you.

Would you like to present what your logic actually is then? Because you haven't provided any sort of evidence, details, or logical process for any of your claims. 100% of your posts are vaguely worded emotional appeals, so of course it looks silly when I try to form a logical framework around a purely emotional posting history.

[Felya]

Would you like to present what your logic actually is then? Because you haven't provided any sort of evidence, details, or logical process for any of your claims. 100% of your posts are vaguely worded emotional appeals, so of course it looks silly when I try to form a logical framework around a purely emotional posting history.

I think I know what it is... GOP Senate + GOP President + GOP SCOTUS = Riots

[NoiseTank13]

Your logic is horrid and completely twisted. I'm embarrassed for you.

Uh oh.

Stinky.

[cubby]

Hard to say, both because they are obscuring their data and because treatment HAS improved a lot since March. The average age of those admitted to the hospital has dropped dramatically which means there's probably also a better chance of their survival (although probably not without lifelong complications). Of course, if their healthcare system is being overwhelmed--and there is every indication that it is--then seeing a daily total of several hundred in the near future probably isn't out of the question.

That was where my thoughts were going, that FL is now almost certainly going to be overwhelmed (TX, too - and others), and at that point, as in NY State, people started dying with greater increase.

[Felya]

Uh oh.

Stinky.

Hey now... Trump being president results in riots... 4 more years, will be no riots... as if anyone ever called doing the same thing multiple times, but expect different results... insanity...

[alexw]

Also a possibility, I haven't looked into it enough to say for certain that is a determinate cause, but it is plausible. Either way, case numbers for something like Covid are obviously always going to be hugely wrong, and death numbers even more so. I will definitely agree that comparing cases in situations like this is a very dicey proposition, because no two places are counting the same way. This applies to different nations even more so. We can just infer general trend lines.

Before the recent exponential explosion in cases in Florida, their reported covid-19 caused deaths were being massively undercounted. That undercounting will be far worse now. Moreover we can assume its deliberate. This isn't a mistake or error, they've had plenty of time to fix counting errors. DeSantis and their republican controlled legislature just don't want the public to know the truth of how badly they have fucked things up.

https://www.abcactionnews.com/reboun...oll-in-florida

A look at the past six months in Florida shows why health experts are increasingly concerned about death toll numbers here. Between January to June 30, Florida reported 8,671 excess deaths, that’s more than double the 3,650 deaths the state attributed to COVID-19.

[DocSavageFan]

Would you like to present what your logic actually is then? Because you haven't provided any sort of evidence, details, or logical process for any of your claims. 100% of your posts are vaguely worded emotional appeals, so of course it looks silly when I try to form a logical framework around a purely emotional posting history.

Logical framework? Is that what you call it? Tell me something...where did I equate BLM with Rioters? Where did I equate BLM with Democrats? Please provide your evidence, details, and logical process for your claims.

Failing that, perhaps it's time for you to take a good, long look in the mirror.

[Zeth Hawkins]

These rioters brought more positive change to the USA in a short period of time than voting ever will.

The riots only brought responses, both positive and negative. More negative than positive, in my opinion.

[Breccia]

That was where my thoughts were going, that FL is now almost certainly going to be overwhelmed (TX, too - and others), and at that point, as in NY State, people started dying with greater increase.

This is such a tough thing to work with, mathematically.

1) Any changes made right this second won't show up for weeks.
2) Any new cases made right now won't become deaths for weeks.
3) There's too many people out there without the desire to use evidence responsibly, as shown by how Florida mocked New York earlier on, to work with 1) and 2) at the same time
4) Every day that passes the school year gets closer to starting (because that's how time works). Some states, like New York, have specific rules and deadlines in place. DeSantis was pushing for in-person schools literally 3 days ago. The longer he waits before he changes his mind, the less time Florida schools have to prepare. This is also less time for them to get necessary supplies or funding for supplies, and if, say, teachers start bailing either "No way am I meeting these disease-carrying children when I'm 80" or "I ain't got no compy-tar skills, uh-huh, so I'm, r'tiring y'all", there's less time to replace them and less time to train their replacements. (Don't think you can drop an unemployed bartender into a third-grade history class and expect it to go well)

But, hopefully, the least likely but worst possible part:

5) Hurricane season goes through November. It's hopefully a low risk, but the poorer areas (cough cough South cough) do not have the ability to handle both issues at once. And FL in particular attracts hurricanes like someone drew a path with a Sharpie or something. Serious hurricane damage brings all sorts of related issues, including, yes, crowded shelters and hospitals.

I really hope we don't see that part.

[Kaleredar]

I'm talking about the RIOTERS Dr. Einstein. How the fuck could you miss that?

Why the fuck are you talking about some random rioters in a thread about Trump?

[Thekri]

Logical framework? Is that what you call it? Tell me something...where did I equate BLM with Rioters? Where did I equate BLM with Democrats? Please provide your evidence, details, and logical process for your claims.

Perhaps it's time for you to take a good, long look in the mirror.

*Sigh* These "Challenges" to dig through your posting history is beyond distasteful, but this particular one takes almost no time, so sure.

News flash...hundreds (if not thousands) of violent protesters in front of your house is dangerous as hell and represents a real threat...unless of course one happens to live in some kind of incredibly twisted alternate reality.

Here is you calling the protests in front of the White House violent and dangerous. Notice complete absence of evidence for this claim.

Perhaps you missed my point as it was indeed a little subtle. My point was that it's irrational as hell to broadly disparage either political party due to the actions of a few fringe violent extremists. And I'll add to that point to say that people who rationalize the actions of only one political set of fringe violent extremists have some serious personal issues in my opinion.

Here is you acting hurt, while making a somewhat reasonable point…

If you're currently a liberal and believe that you're on the better side of history in these times of pervasive hatred, bigotry and violence that's prevalent among a huge left-wing element of our current society...I would highly disagree.

And here is you being a complete hypocrite about the above point.

One thing that is fundamentally missing in all your posts is any sort of facts, evidence, or specifics of anything. It is all vaguely threatening generalizations, with nothing concrete that can be refuted, because there are no claims actually being made. Compare this to the "Groupthink" you rail against. I counted the number of links in a @Breccia post from about 5 minutes ago. 14 links. Everything is sourced, so even if you disagree Breccia on the analysis, it is extremely clear what information was used to form that decision, and what the train of thought leading up to that conclusion. Obviously Breccia has a very clear opinion on things, and it would be disingenuous to claim that there is no bias against Trump or the GOP there, but since the argument is based on evidence, and is extremely transparent what argument is being made, it is a solid and reasonable base for dialogue. Your inability to do the same is why you are not respected on here. You like playing the victim, and think people are treating your opinions unfairly, but that is because you don't actually present your opinions in a way they can be addressed in the first place.

[DocSavageFan]

Why the fuck are you talking about some random rioters in a thread about Trump?

Perhaps you should read the previous posts regarding this discussion?

[Kaleredar]

Perhaps you should read the previous posts regarding this discussion?

We were discussing trump and the republican’s continued bungling of the quarantine situation, involving trump’s complete unwillingness to address the situation until far too late, his penchant for blaming others for his own lack of action or competence, and of course the ever-increasing death toll we have to thank trump for.

You came in spouting off about rioters who in no way were involved with Covid or Trump.

That was the discussion. I know you’ve run out of ways to defend Trump, but it’s best you go back to being a conspicuous silence, rather than a thread derailed.

[DocSavageFan]

<snip>

In those posts I never equated BLM with Rioters or BLM with Democrats. And if that's what you saw, then you're delusional as hell.