"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[music49]

I'm working on something like this, but I don't if/when I'll actually finish it. I imagine if I get it done, someone smarter and faster will have already added it to Wowhead or something. But I agree, I think it will be really helpful.

Doing gods work here, at least to help make a decision a little easier.

I really don't want to settle on a covenant because they are the middle ground

[Elias01]

Ok. Should they also removing transmog, spec and talent switching? Because, all in, right?

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Judging by the endgame content, it always was.

No it wasnt. You are right they should so be glad they are not. Becouse it would definitly make game better if our character builds would be pernament so each player feels unique. Like any developer would told you that talent swaping is terrible and makes game worse. They mostly implement some sort of way to swap under pressure of players feedback. Problem is what players consider good is in most cases actualy bad. Swapable covenats wont make game better. It will make game more acessible but less fun = worse game.

[Soon-TM]

Swapable covenats wont make game better. It will make game more acessible but less fun = worse game.

I fail to see the connection here.

[Kralljin]

It will make game more acessible but less fun = worse game.

You stole that line from people who shat on Wotlk.

[Tiev]

No it wasnt. You are right they should so be glad they are not. Becouse it would definitly make game better if our character builds would be pernament so each player feels unique. Like any developer would told you that talent swaping is terrible and makes game worse. They mostly implement some sort of way to swap under pressure of players feedback. Problem is what players consider good is in most cases actualy bad. Swapable covenats wont make game better. It will make game more acessible but less fun = worse game.

It would definitely make it better for anyone who plays WoW as a role-playing game.

It would make it unplayable for anyone who plays WoW as an MMO dungeon/raid game.

Wow is both. They need a middle ground.

[Echocho]

Agreed. Make us unable to change specs or talents, you cowards. I want some meaningful choice in this game!

That would be amazing. It doesn't make any sense at all that my character can all of a sudden have a completely different skill set than it had since the last trash pack.

[Vakir]

That would be amazing. It doesn't make any sense at all that my character can all of a sudden have a completely different skill set than it had since the last trash pack.

I mean, while I was sarcastically exaggerating, I don't entirely disagree. There's a version of the game that could exist in a really cool way if they did it scorched earth. But that would effectively be a new game with how much things have changed since around Wrath. They'd need a bold expansion to do that, one that changes as much as Cataclysm and Legion combined.

Do it one way or the other. Either make an uncompromising system where every choice matters and tune the highest content around it as such (right now, Blizzard tunes Mythic Raiding deliberately for players to pick the best options by their own admission) or allow the flexibility that exists now to carry into all systems.

Covenant abilities as they are right now just don't mesh with WoW's present idea of class design. And it further contradicts Blizzard's own decision to make you more about "class" than "spec" this expansion by their own words. And even then, you'd still have Soulbinds being exclusive. I trust them to balance 12 passive trees. I do not trust them to balance 52 active abilities.

[Sunslayer]

I love RPGs been playing them for 20 years. I used to love WoW (pre Legion). I love table top RPG, Pathfinder and D&D and I honestly feel that Covenants are the worst thing I've ever seen.

[Echocho]

I mean, while I was sarcastically exaggerating, I don't entirely disagree. There's a version of the game that could exist in a really cool way if they did it scorched earth. But that would effectively be a new game with how much things have changed since around Wrath. They'd need a bold expansion to do that, one that changes as much as Cataclysm and Legion combined.

Do it one way or the other. Either make an uncompromising system where every choice matters and tune the highest content around it as such (right now, Blizzard tunes Mythic Raiding deliberately for players to pick the best options by their own admission) or allow the flexibility that exists now to carry into all systems.

Covenant abilities as they are right now just don't mesh with WoW's present idea of class design. And it further contradicts Blizzard's own decision to make you more about "class" than "spec" this expansion by their own words. And even then, you'd still have Soulbinds being exclusive. I trust them to balance 12 passive trees. I do not trust them to balance 52 active abilities.

That's what I've been saying this whole time. We need lots more permanent choices, covenants stick out like a sore thumb because it's the first one we're getting. If we had like 4-5 systems like that it would no longer be an issue because no sane person would have 50 alts of the same class just to get all possible combinations.

[Sluvs]

IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.

[Tiev]

IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.

Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!

[Vakir]

That's what I've been saying this whole time. We need lots more permanent choices, covenants stick out like a sore thumb because it's the first one we're getting. If we had like 4-5 systems like that it would no longer be an issue because no sane person would have 50 alts of the same class just to get all possible combinations.

Then they'd need to redo the entire damn game for it to work. Active abilities are too jarring of a shift, too quickly. Again, Primordial or Deathborne are two easy examples where what it does for 1 spec is absurdly different in function from another in terms of quality. Soulbinds are at least exclusive trees, but Conduits are Covenant-agnostic so it's not that terrible to have some passive abilities that aren't the same across all characters. Let's see if those work first.

They should experiment first before they start flinging entire new class mechanics at the wall.

The funny thing is, Torghast is a great example of a way to do it right. You don't get those same powers outside of Torghast, but every single class in Torghast plays uniquely, and some are absolutely bonkers-fun based on the things you can get away with. But since they're totally detached from instanced content that's tuned very significantly for being able to meet certain scripted criteria, you can get away with it. And it means that it has value because your experience is totally different across 12 classes rather than it being what the game is in dungeons and raids sometimes - which is that you're just playing 12 flavors of similar tools.

[kaminaris]

Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!

Or change a guild to the one who values players that are capable of performing rotation, doing mechanics and not dying while enjoying faster progression that method-wannabees. Yep, choice matters, and it starts with class because that is far more important than covenants.

[Vakir]

Or change a guild to the one who values players that are capable of performing rotation, doing mechanics and not dying while enjoying faster progression that method-wannabees. Yep, choice matters, and it starts with class because that is far more important than covenants.

You are permitted to do this. Why enforce it on others?

[Krakan]

IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.

Choices never really mattered... people point to tbc rep factions but anything they had you ditched in kara once they rebalanced the loot.

The biggest gate for talents has been a hour of farming gold in vanilla if you hit the 50g cap.

[kaminaris]

You are permitted to do this. Why enforce it on others?

Enforce to what? You are free to play with anyone you want. Just don't complain if you want to stick with bad/toxic people that blame their gear for their lack of skills.

[Vakir]

Enforce to what? You are free to play with anyone you want. Just don't complain if you want to stick with bad/toxic people that blame their gear for their lack of skills.

High end content is literally tuned around making the most mathematically optimal choices. This is both confirmed by Blizzard and continues to be their M.O. for bleeding edge content, but sometimes even just below that.

This isn't an issue of "Method wannabes," it's literally how the game functions. And even then, if you wanna PUG, all the same issues. If you feel shitty about underperforming as a personal issue, all the same, but you're still stuck if you don't like the aesthetic, story, or flavor of the Covenant you chose that is "optimal."

Decoupling player power from choice fixes all of these issues. It does nothing to harm YOUR enjoyment. It does plenty to affect people who aren't you.

[Sunslayer]

Wanna do Mythic+? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

Wanna do PvP? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

Wanna do well in the cleave heavy Raid? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

Wanna do well in the single target heavy Raid? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

This isn't wrong at all. You'd know this if you push content. Trust me.

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High end content is literally tuned around making the most mathematically optimal choices. This is both confirmed by Blizzard and continues to be their M.O. for bleeding edge content, but sometimes even just below that.

This isn't an issue of "Method wannabes," it's literally how the game functions. And even then, if you wanna PUG, all the same issues. If you feel shitty about underperforming as a personal issue, all the same, but you're still stuck if you don't like the aesthetic, story, or flavor of the Covenant you chose that is "optimal."

Decoupling player power from choice fixes all of these issues. It does nothing to harm YOUR enjoyment. It does plenty to affect people who aren't you.

As someone that loves M+ key pushing this is correct. It's not just for "Method". LFG is brutal. Even guild runs are separated by those that are optimized and those that just play the game. I know many think "My guild lets me do M+ with them regardless". This is true. What you don't realize is that your guild probably has teams you don't even know about pushing higher keys that you are never invited to.

[LorDC]

No it wasnt. You are right they should so be glad they are not. Becouse it would definitly make game better for me if our character builds would be pernament so I feels unique. I tell you that talent swaping is terrible and makes game worse. They mostly implement some sort of way to swap under pressure of feedback from players who's playstyle I don't like. Problem is what players who's playstyle I don't like consider good is in most cases actualy bad for me. Swapable covenats wont make game better for me. It will make game more acessible for everyone but less fun for me = worse game for me.

Sorry, but there were some critical spelling errors in your post. I've corrected them.

[VinceVega]

Lol what? Making them switachble would completly ruin experience of choosing covenant. People want their choices to have impact and be meaingfull not just another ***** to min max and swap around when skill A will be best choice. Thats so boring and antirpg. There is only 1 problem. Playerbase is that problem. There is good chuck of players what plays wow with wrong mindset. WoW is supostu be MMORPG game yet there is this entilted playerbase what want play WoW ARPG dungeoon/raid simulator where all we do is solving math to pick best thing. Maybe its time for you to go play some other game.

Tbh you sound more like you are in the wrong mindset. Telling people how to play the game and how they are supposed to have fun.
WoW has always been about optimzing you character too. Since vanilla. Back then we just did not know how.

And if the ability is the only reason the covenants are a meaningful choice than there was non to begin with. The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it. Not if someone uses an ability in a dungeon you are not even in.

You can RP the hell out of the Covenant. RP that there are non of the abilities in game for all i care but don't tell me what i am supposed to have fun at.

Also: WoW will never become an ARPG. Complete system is different.
Take a step back an evaluate why YOU play the game