"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[temple1906]

As someone that loves M+ key pushing this is correct. It's not just for "Method". LFG is brutal. Even guild runs are separated by those that are optimized and those that just play the game. I know many think "My guild lets me do M+ with them regardless". This is true. What you don't realize is that your guild probably has teams you don't even know about pushing higher keys that you are never invited to.

This is so true it hurts my soul. Players focused on optimization and pushing content to congregate together. I promise you that if your guild has content pushing focused people on it, they are running with their own groups on a different Discord and not telling you about it so that you don't get your feelings hurt. I have been on both ends of this.

[Lurker1]

Nothing is forced here keep reaching.

[Echocho]

And if the ability is the only reason the covenants are a meaningful choice than there was non to begin with. The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it. Not if someone uses an ability in a dungeon you are not even in.

Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.

[temple1906]

The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it.

It's funny you say this, because my ability choices don't offer me any immersion at all yet I often get very immersed in the game. The immersion is literally your connection to your character and the world itself, not the systems that you navigate. I get immersed in WoW in all content at all levels despite enjoying the higher end more than any other function of the game. I can do this because my connection is to the game world and my character and not whatever arbitrary systems they are attaching to it. The idea that not having Covenants be a permanent choice somehow breaks immersion is ridiculous. It's a total cop out. The truth is, these players want the higher end players to suffer because they envy them. Making the systems more accessible does not hurt anyone or stop anyone from playing the way they want to play. Keeping them as is actually does that.

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Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.

If you can't immerse yourself because some player in a Mythic raid is Venthyr and used the Kyrian ability (that you did not even see) then there is something wrong with you. What, just the knowledge that there could be players out there using abilities that don't match their Covenant suddenly breaks your immersion? The very thought of a player that you will never meet or see doing something that you will never witness somehow detracts from your experience? Is this what you are implying?

[Kithelle]

snip

Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,

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Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!

Yup...because everyone is a mythic record chaser where every little bit of DPS absolutely matters

If your raid is teetering on a single ability you either aren't that good or your raid isn't that good

Probably both...

[VinceVega]

Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.

Well the person i was responding to said becuase someone somewhere was using an ability in a different color breaks his immersion.

And i don't see how that should be? Immersion in WoW mostly comes from singel player content.
The moment people are seeing other people on a normal realm ther will be people on giant ass demons riding around clipping into each other hell hounds litteral undead horses flying monstrosities and whatnot. The covenant immersion comes from what it gives to you personally. Maybe some instanced content you run for the first time. If you choose to keep the ability fine. But what does it change for your immersion if i choose, say, Kyrian covenant, with the ability from nightfey? Nothing. Because we only communicate in content where the is no immersion.
If you want it to be there to you would have to join a RP server.

[Specialka]

Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,

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Yup...because everyone is a mythic record chaser where every little bit of DPS absolutely matters

If your raid is teetering on a single ability you either aren't that good or your raid isn't that good

Probably both...

Unless you can show us some parses, it is rich saying that coming from probably someone who is a LFR warrior.

[klogaroth]

Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,

I've played plenty thanks. Which is why I know that the system is much better suited to a single player game than an MMO. Also you've not played Diablo 3 where you can switch abilities really easily? Or D:OS2 where you can respec at will? Or FFXIV where changing to a new class is as simple as switching your weapon? Or Witcher 3, where you can use a respec potion? You've missed some big games.

In terms of combat - you are practically locked into the ability. If someone asks you if you want to do M+ and your reply is that you'll be ready in 2 weeks, that's locked.

[Sunslayer]

Nothing is forced here keep reaching.

Nothing is forced but please realize, while you reach for the lowest hanging branch, others are reaching for the stars. I understand that you exists, do you understand that players that want far more challenge than you exists? The difference between you and I is. I see you, I know you, I was you. But, do you see me? Do you care that I also play the game?

[Specialka]

I've played plenty thanks. Which is why I know that the system is much better suited to a single player game than an MMO.

In terms of combat - you are practically locked into the ability. If someone asks you if you want to do M+ and your reply is that you'll be ready in 2 weeks, that's locked.

And even if the a single RPG does not allow you to respec, there is a chance that someone made a mod that allows you to do it. So you know, you can try different thing without remaking a character and losing your progression.

[Sunslayer]

Nothing is forced here keep reaching.

Nothing is forced but please realize, while you reach for the lowest hanging branch, others are reaching for the stars. I understand that you exist, do you understand that players that want far more challenge than you exist? The difference between you and I is. I see you, I know you, I was you. But, do you see me? Do you care that I also play the game?

[badgersmashr]

Nothing is forced but please realize, while you reach for the lowest hanging branch, others are reaching for the stars. I understand that you exist, do you understand that players that want far more challenge than you exist? The difference between you and I is. I see you, I know you, I was you. But, do you see me? Do you care that I also play the game?

You have found the words i've been looking for when trying to describe my feelings. Some people don't seem to understand that there is a contingent of us whom Cutting Edge is just a baseline thing that is inevitable, largely because of our quest to be efficient and not dogshit at the game.

[Sunslayer]

First of all, giving out free movement was a terrible idea, giving out free mobility selectively was not the galaxy brain play blizzard thinks it was.

Second of all trying to 'fix' the problem they created by giving out more free movement and starting a mobility arms race will end in tears.

Finally, if the venthyr teleport goes live as is and venthyr skips become meta anyone saying "no one will be asking for venthyr in m+" is going to get BTFO immediately.

As someone that pushes keys this person is 10000% correct. If Shadowlands goes live as is you have to have Venthyr to push keys and that is all there is to say. No matter how loudly you scream at the skies, the truth remains. Venthyr or declined. Simple.

[Doffen]

Don't worry guys, if I get beta invite I'll fix it.

[Sunslayer]

Or they could change dungeon design in such a way that skips are not needed. Which is very much doable (can be done by making the linear path to the end boss not give you 100% so instead of skip you'd need to actually pick packs on the sides to get complete) and we still haven't seen the SL M+ design in action.

I would love this and embrace such a change. But, to make this so they need to change current dungeon design cause as it stands now in Alpha, it's all still the same. You need skips.

[klaps_05]

Blizzard heard players dont like borrowed power, so now instead they give us entire borrowed classes.

[Sunslayer]

Blizzard heard players dont like borrowed power, so now instead they give us entire borrowed classes.

This person wins the prize. Covenants are straight trash.

[Kithelle]

Unless you can show us some parses, it is rich saying that coming from probably someone who is a LFR warrior.

Sorry don't LFR...and I'm not pretending to be some elite player like most of the others complaining about it.

[SirBeef]

Yes and no. Venthyr will probably be the go-to in high mm+. So if you pick your best covenant for raid and if it is not Venthyr, you won't be able to do high key as you will rejected because you won't have the tp to skip.

But what is a best covenant for raiding? You'll have movement fights, you'll have ST fights, you'll have AoE/cleave fights, you'll have fights with DoT's applied to you, you'll have fights that require to use defensives, and so one. One could easily "need" all 4 for one raid. So really where does it end? I really haven't seen any evidence that one ability will make anyone so unoptimal in other areas that they won't be taken, or can't achieve high levels of competition all around. It might be a bit harder, or take a bit longer, but it certainly better than having everything just be a loadout as was mentioned earlier, and feel a bit more like an RPG.

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Do you care that I also play the game?

Do you not see that others want meaningful decisions?

[Sofo1]

It's so dumb locking choices away from players. keep all covenant stuff cosmetic and let everyone use and enjoy the skills.