DH [Havoc] Feedback Shadowlands (so far)

[Musta]

HOLY, that's a lot to read. Ok i need to read this later, but i wanted to tell something before i read, before i forget: I just don't like felrush and vengeful retreat as one build to go. I really like to how dhs are. But i know and recognize the dodging we provide in arenas is too much, and somewhat dumb. I understand why people want to #RemoveDh, but it's like, one of my favorite classes and thankfully for me and others it has been overpowered for 2 expansions, unfortunately, it has to take somewhat a nerf, but whatever they do, please don't go too low. It's cause, in the end of the day, it's still one of my favorite classes and i would still be liking to play it.

I have faith in DH players to know what we need on the class, and when i read this, i will tell what i think (even tho it's just my opinion and my own personal desire for the class ofc.) As a DH community i hope we can get some nice advice for blizzard and gameplay in the future.

looking forward to know what you think

[Shakana]

Ok @Musta sorry i took so much time to look into it, i was busy and i read now. I agree with you in many things and well-catched. First of all i think that yes, having 2 ways of build fury can be a bit misguiding and a lot of things works differently. Almost feels like 2 dps specs for demon hunter even tho it's havoc. They play really different. I think tho that demonblades takes away many things, if people already say that we are "brain-dead" class spec as dps, imagine taking away the only activity we have with blind fury/demonic appetite and demons bite. It's a dump and build rotation, while demon blades you basically sit there waiting for fury generation, while with demon's bite, you kind of chose when to dump and build, gives you more freedom to manage your fury. Which for me it's actually at all not a bad thing. What they could do it's working on that fury so that it doesn't exist just one or another. MAYBE it's time to do a big overhaul of demon hunter gameplay. But, at the same time, not disconnect us players from knowing demon hunter class as it is, so many of your suggestions are good because of that. For example, i felt fury of illidari was a big loss for us, in transition from legion to bfa, it was a really powerful skill and was basically our strongest skill. Felblade i always loved this, always always, but with demon's bite build felblade kind of doesn't do much, would actually feel nice to use it, but we only use it on demonblades. Not sure how much i would want it baseline tho. Fel barrage is actually a really nice skill too that needs to enter more on rotation. Something that shows more how much the demon we have within, should be showing more rather than just some demon's bite and death sweep, you know some dynamic while playing, the only thing we have the most that shows our demon within is eye beam and meta. Fel barrage definitely feels like we are about to explode and it's somewhat pleasing to use. First blood is really important and it will be strange, it will feel like they are changing too much the spec when using cycle of hatred, it's not bad, i will just feel some detachment from my demon hunter in this sense, and essence break i don't even know. I love demon origins that is on PVP talent, some of the talents we used in legion got turned into pvp skills. And i think demonic origins, a single talent could just the rest of the work that others are trying to. Demonic origins and First Blood really works well together. Pvp also is just so dead compared to how it was expansions ago, that feels like those talents stopped existing, unless you do PVP. As i said, i would comment, my opinions my own. Fact. But truly is what i believe that makes demon hunter interesting it's the dynamic of talents that work well together in every single row. I love the simplicity of demon hunter, it's actually good i don't have to press way too many buttons but in bfa i have been feeling the class is lacking something for me, everyone enjoys it, and i don't know what it is. Maybe it's demon's bite, maybe it's the lack of skills that went to pvp, maybe it's fury of illidary, somehow it feels fluid but stuck with something, i still am trying to figure out why i feel this way. I felt super super comfortable in legion with my demon hunter, bfa demon hunter, works fluid, but it still doesn't, and ain't even GCD's because we barely have to deal with it, we are the most fluid class when it comes to global cooldowns. And at the same time, we get so overpowered in so many things in bfa with borrowed powers that makes it even stronger, that feels a little effortless. I would like also to not spam a key all the time for dump and build so frequently but it's still something that gives me some smiles because i feel the freedom of management of my fury bar. If this makes sense. Now as i said, whatever they do, i hope fel mastery/momentum just doesn't exist anymore. It's just not pleasing for pve, that's what should be on PVP talents instead, would be way more useful for PVP than PVE, in my honest opinion. Opinions my own. And good post.

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There's also a take from someone on EN forums, if you want to give it a look: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...h-havoc/503607

[Skayth]

holy block of text

[Musta]

Ok @Musta sorry i took so much time to look into it, i was busy and i read now. I agree with you in many things and well-catched. First of all i think that yes, having 2 ways of build fury can be a bit misguiding and a lot of things works differently. Almost feels like 2 dps specs for demon hunter even tho it's havoc. They play really different. I think tho that demonblades takes away many things, if people already say that we are "brain-dead" class spec as dps, imagine taking away the only activity we have with blind fury/demonic appetite and demons bite. It's a dump and build rotation, while demon blades you basically sit there waiting for fury generation, while with demon's bite, you kind of chose when to dump and build, gives you more freedom to manage your fury. Which for me it's actually at all not a bad thing. What they could do it's working on that fury so that it doesn't exist just one or another. MAYBE it's time to do a big overhaul of demon hunter gameplay. But, at the same time, not disconnect us players from knowing demon hunter class as it is, so many of your suggestions are good because of that. For example, i felt fury of illidari was a big loss for us, in transition from legion to bfa, it was a really powerful skill and was basically our strongest skill. Felblade i always loved this, always always, but with demon's bite build felblade kind of doesn't do much, would actually feel nice to use it, but we only use it on demonblades. Not sure how much i would want it baseline tho. Fel barrage is actually a really nice skill too that needs to enter more on rotation. Something that shows more how much the demon we have within, should be showing more rather than just some demon's bite and death sweep, you know some dynamic while playing, the only thing we have the most that shows our demon within is eye beam and meta. Fel barrage definitely feels like we are about to explode and it's somewhat pleasing to use. First blood is really important and it will be strange, it will feel like they are changing too much the spec when using cycle of hatred, it's not bad, i will just feel some detachment from my demon hunter in this sense, and essence break i don't even know. I love demon origins that is on PVP talent, some of the talents we used in legion got turned into pvp skills. And i think demonic origins, a single talent could just the rest of the work that others are trying to. Demonic origins and First Blood really works well together. Pvp also is just so dead compared to how it was expansions ago, that feels like those talents stopped existing, unless you do PVP. As i said, i would comment, my opinions my own. Fact. But truly is what i believe that makes demon hunter interesting it's the dynamic of talents that work well together in every single row. I love the simplicity of demon hunter, it's actually good i don't have to press way too many buttons but in bfa i have been feeling the class is lacking something for me, everyone enjoys it, and i don't know what it is. Maybe it's demon's bite, maybe it's the lack of skills that went to pvp, maybe it's fury of illidary, somehow it feels fluid but stuck with something, i still am trying to figure out why i feel this way. I felt super super comfortable in legion with my demon hunter, bfa demon hunter, works fluid, but it still doesn't, and ain't even GCD's because we barely have to deal with it, we are the most fluid class when it comes to global cooldowns. And at the same time, we get so overpowered in so many things in bfa with borrowed powers that makes it even stronger, that feels a little effortless. I would like also to not spam a key all the time for dump and build so frequently but it's still something that gives me some smiles because i feel the freedom of management of my fury bar. If this makes sense. Now as i said, whatever they do, i hope fel mastery/momentum just doesn't exist anymore. It's just not pleasing for pve, that's what should be on PVP talents instead, would be way more useful for PVP than PVE, in my honest opinion. Opinions my own. And good post.

- - - Updated - - -

There's also a take from someone on EN forums, if you want to give it a look: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...h-havoc/503607

Thanks! Im glad to read your thoughts on the matter. I tried to not change DH too much and yet give us a little more room for choice while reading so you are right about that. I personally detest momentum and demons bite. They insist on a dps window like essence break in a class that has a lot of windows already, this make me furious. So I tried to give us a bit a control back....

Thanks for your feedback too! I hope something is done and thanks for taking the time to read it. /cheers

[Shakana]

Thanks! Im glad to read your thoughts on the matter. I tried to not change DH too much and yet give us a little more room for choice while reading so you are right about that. I personally detest momentum and demons bite. They insist on a dps window like essence break in a class that has a lot of windows already, this make me furious. So I tried to give us a bit a control back....

Thanks for your feedback too! I hope something is done and thanks for taking the time to read it. /cheers

You're welcome, i enjoyed reading it, and the most important is not changing so much the class to the point we don't recognize it anymore but a bit more pleasing. I think demon hunter players are doing a good job pointing out what is uncomfortable and what is not. We will see what blizzard will do with that information. I feel they are going to change the class over the top, something we are not expecting. I just hope by the end of the changes we don't feel disconnected from our class and from playing it.

[Musta]

You're welcome, i enjoyed reading it, and the most important is not changing so much the class to the point we don't recognize it anymore but a bit more pleasing. I think demon hunter players are doing a good job pointing out what is uncomfortable and what is not. We will see what blizzard will do with that information. I feel they are going to change the class over the top, something we are not expecting. I just hope by the end of the changes we don't feel disconnected from our class and from playing it.

I have the fear they will stop any changes to havoc. really worried there.

[Shakana]

I have the fear they will stop any changes to havoc. really worried there.

I'm also worried overall with what will happen to demon hunter. I know it will feel different.

[Xorzor]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316990/...gendaries-spec

This does not bode well for the Havoc Demon Hunter. We'll be slow to start off, but will we gain back some measure of power later on? Hard to say.

[Tiev]

Speaking as someone who doesn't play DH but loves the aesthetics and lore of the class, I wish they'd just make it more fun to play. It feels just so basic. Unless I'm missing something. I tend to go play my rogue even though I'd much rather be a DH because of little I have to juggle at a first glance.

[Musta]

STATE OF DH FROM WOWHEAD COMMUNITY:

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316990/...gendaries-spec

[Tiev]

STATE OF DH FROM WOWHEAD COMMUNITY:

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316990/...gendaries-spec

Wow, the spell toolkit part of that guide is exactly how I feel about it.

[Musta]

Wow, the spell toolkit part of that guide is exactly how I feel about it.

We need help. A LOT of help

[Lucrece]

Demonic and First Blood need to be BASELINE. Would also help if demonic appetite was also baselined. NOBODY WANTS TO ONLY BE A DEMON EVERY 3-4 MINUTES. NOBODY LIKES A 2 BUTTON ROTATION.

Delete fucking momentum already. Monks didn't like having to animation cancel chi torpedo mid animation with a jump to optimize DPS, and they shouldn't bring that defunct shit to DH either.

The real problem is Meta should also be halved in cd and duration and offer a % damage buff, even if they have to remove some power off the empowered spenders. Doesn't feel good to use any skill that's not chaos strike or blade dance because it's completely unaffected by meta and takes up precious GCD's.

They cannibalized a well fleshed out warlock metamorphosis and somehow made the DH one the blandest crap ever.

[BlakeArt]

You don't tell Blizzard how something should be play out, that's the first rule. Beta is out, don't expect any change anymore, just number tuning, so let's wait for 9.1 and may be enough flame with make them revert us to demonic instead of Cancertum, I mean Momentum.

A world where Blizzard would design a class with theyr playerbase. Doesn't make players game designer and in most cases they don't know shit about what's going on in term of game design, but when a vast majority ask for something, Blizzard should just make it happens and balance around and that's it. 90% of the playerbase don't want to see Momentum around and complaint about it ? Okey, we get rid of it, let design something else. Would be a simplier world, for sure, but whom am I kidding ?

[Accendor]

This is a big problem, that affect the spec directly and make the flow of the spec mute, because you "choose" Demon Blades. To me, personally, its really frustrating having to press such a stupid button like Demon's Bite forever. Its not fun, it limits me so much and is so against the premisse that we are a fast spec. So, Demon Blades should be how the DHs work and removed from the talent tree. It frees the class from having to chose to be smooth or not. It also frees us from the infamous Demons Bite, that is probably the most unsatisfying button to press in a long, long time. And we have to press it so many times if we dont have Demon Blades. Other reason is if we choose to talent Demon Blades, we cannot talent in fury generation support talents, as they are in the same row. I believe the team can understand why this is underwhelming.

While I agree with many other things you said, your argument here is a contradiction, because demon blades is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of a fast paces spec. It not only takes away a button to press, it gives you tons of empty GCDs that you spend waiting for ressources and makes you even press things like Glaive Through to just not waste a GCD.
If you plane is to completely rework how Demon Blades work, ok, but as it currently works, it immensely slows the spec down.

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NOBODY LIKES A 2 BUTTON ROTATION..

With Demon Blades you can go to a 1-Button-Rotation

[Musta]

While I agree with many other things you said, your argument here is a contradiction, because demon blades is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of a fast paces spec. It not only takes away a button to press, it gives you tons of empty GCDs that you spend waiting for ressources and makes you even press things like Glaive Through to just not waste a GCD.
If you plane is to completely rework how Demon Blades work, ok, but as it currently works, it immensely slows the spec down.

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With Demon Blades you can go to a 1-Button-Rotation

Demon blades should be 100% proc and how DHs work. ALso, demons bite fucks up my carpal tunnel.

[Lucrece]

Demon blades should be 100% proc and how DHs work. ALso, demons bite fucks up my carpal tunnel.

That's why shamans had rockbiter changed.

Honestly, fracture should be baseline for both specs.

[Sarevokcz]

While I agree with many other things you said, your argument here is a contradiction, because demon blades is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of a fast paces spec. It not only takes away a button to press, it gives you tons of empty GCDs that you spend waiting for ressources and makes you even press things like Glaive Through to just not waste a GCD.
If you plane is to completely rework how Demon Blades work, ok, but as it currently works, it immensely slows the spec down.

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With Demon Blades you can go to a 1-Button-Rotation

demon blades doesn't HAVE to slow down the spec, it didn't slow it down in Legion when CS refund was based on crit instead of flat % (and we had the ring)

for example they could easily make it 100% proc, give it generous fury so you don't really have THAT many free GCDs and remove the damage as a tradeoff so you sacrifice damage on generator but instead you get to press actual abilities more.

they could also make it as a supplement of demons bite, not replacement, nerf the fury gen by alot, remove the damage and make it basically steady but slow fury gen supplement which could allow you to do maybe one or two abilities more in short dps windows instead of resorting to demons bite spam after 3 CS.

blizzard definitely has ways to change demon blades (for better or worse) but leaving it in its sorry state for another expansion would suck. atleast they would show they are willing to experiment with the ability...

[Accendor]

demon blades doesn't HAVE to slow down the spec, it didn't slow it down in Legion when CS refund was based on crit instead of flat % (and we had the ring)

for example they could easily make it 100% proc, give it generous fury so you don't really have THAT many free GCDs and remove the damage as a tradeoff so you sacrifice damage on generator but instead you get to press actual abilities more.

Again, just ONCE empty cooldown is a contradiction to "demon blades makes the spec play fast".
If it is changed to fit _THAT_ theme (as was the idea from OP) than it needs to provide so much fury that you never have an empty GCD and at that point the questions stands, why do we have fury at all, if we have enough to fill every GCD anyway?
This becomes complicated very fast.

Another small addition: The only time in legion when demon blades did not slow down the spec was in the beginning of the expansion when we had the unnerfed ring. That was the only time it worked, and it was not intended to work that way, which is way the ring was nerfed multiple times. DB often still was a strong (sometimes even the strongest) spec during legion, but it was much slower than the alternatives and way more clunky.

I am not saying there is no solution to this, there most certainly is, its just not as easy as some people seem to think it is. Blizzard is not even trying ofc, thats the main issue here.

[Sarevokcz]

Again, just ONCE empty cooldown is a contradiction to "demon blades makes the spec play fast".
If it is changed to fit _THAT_ theme (as was the idea from OP) than it needs to provide so much fury that you never have an empty GCD and at that point the questions stands, why do we have fury at all, if we have enough to fill every GCD anyway?
This becomes complicated very fast.

Another small addition: The only time in legion when demon blades did not slow down the spec was in the beginning of the expansion when we had the unnerfed ring. That was the only time it worked, and it was not intended to work that way, which is way the ring was nerfed multiple times. DB often still was a strong (sometimes even the strongest) spec during legion, but it was much slower than the alternatives and way more clunky.

I am not saying there is no solution to this, there most certainly is, its just not as easy as some people seem to think it is. Blizzard is not even trying ofc, thats the main issue here.

having a free GCD or two every minute definitely isn't 'slowing down' the spec, it's actually what gives you the room for utilities (stun, CC, whatever) without overcapping or feeling you have to sacrifice dps ( that is acutally the main thing I dislike about demons bite, every single utility spell means you aren't generating fury).

And that was what the build actually accomplised from Nighthold forward. And while ring was nice to have early on, the nerfs later on weren't that impactful when you were at 55%+ crit. And the only reason people went for demonic in the last raid was purely because of set bonuses, not because ring got nerfed.

But I suppose your definition of 'very fast' is only about GCDs mashed per minute, while others feel it's about how many powerful/impactful GCDs they mash in minute. And busywork in spamming zDPS demons bite doesn't really make the spec feel fast in their opinion.

it's like ESO with no autoattack where you have to click for each normal attack. does that add APM? yes. does that make the gameplay feel faster? Eeeh, depending on taste I guess