Shadows Rising Thread [Spoilers]

[Varodoc]

Well in my opinion you don't make sense^^

Why tell hell would i trust someone who gave themself to a power i JUST fought against and who tried to destroy my world and now is sitting in front of me and torturing poeple?
Anduin is one of the reasons Jaina is concerned in the frist place.
Jaina is one of the leaders of the alliance you don't "ask" for their concerns. That would make leading quite difficult. She has every right to be wary of alleria as is everyone else... hell even turalyon is worried. He just agrees in part as the light is quit rigid too. Well he helps but don't tortures himself.

I am not saying alleria an turalyon were wrong or not. It is a fantasy setting. Quite difficult to work with moral in a world where someone can destory it with a snap.
I am just saying that Jaina, while she did wrong in the past, is not condemed to do so forever. She can make amends. And she can have a concience. That stuff doesn't just go away. And also is not mutually exlcusive.
She IS right from a moral poitn of view. Alleria also knows that. But she does what needs to be done to stop slyvannas. In her mind. Maybe another way would be possible. We will never know becuase that is a "What if" scenario.
If she would scold Alleria and on the next page ran trhough dalaran killing Blood elves, that would be something else. But she is not. SHe holds herself to the same standart.

It would be a rather bleak unvierse where people who did wrong can never say anything anymore. Because i don't think there is even one character in wow who would fill that criteria. Basically a free4all anarchy

So we're just going to ignore that Alleria's void powers saved the Alliance from annihilation at the Battle of Lordaeron? Because if she hadn't opened a void rift for void elves and gnomish reinforcements, then the Alliance army (Anduin and Jaina included) would have been surrounded and overwhelmed by Nathanos' forces, since they fell right into a trap. What does Alleria need to do to prove to the Alliance that void elves and their void power are, in fact, trustworthy? Let alone the fact that Jaina's plan to attack Dazar'alor worked only thanks to Magister Umbric opening a void portal to Rastakhan's gold vaults, so that they could take the scepter.

I don't even care if Blizzard wants Alleria to be an evil Void user, whatever, but the Alliance in this novel does not give Alleria and her people the respect they deserve for their contributions in the Fourth War.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I like how Bwonsamdi is still able to kick arse even when he's severely weakened. He's not easy prey. Also, nice try Nathanos, you tiny toy bow and trick won't defeat THE Loa of Death. Try again lol


And I like how he just summons a crapton of spirits and sends them after the troll Cultists. I had the feeling he would do that

[Fewane]

Maybe when he realize it was not a true mak'gora and actually accept his fault in the mess he can get his powers back.

I kind of like this version of Thrall without über-element powers. He might be in denial on why his powers are gone, but the powerless Thrall is way more interesting than a Cataclysm-era version, and his denial on any wrongdoing feeds to that.

[Syegfryed]

I kind of like this version of Thrall without über-element powers. He might be in denial on why his powers are gone, but the powerless Thrall is way more interesting than a Cataclysm-era version, and his denial on any wrongdoing feeds to that.

he just being a random orc is boring, you have all the alliance leaders as strong magic uses and way powerful mortals, like malfurion who killed hundred of orcs in the war of thorns, Jaina with her magic ship, alleria and turallyon with their OP powers, Anduin blasting people with light or healing an army.

In the horde you have a dude with an axe, a dude with a bow and another with a mace.

The only powerful leaders, that i can think off, in the magic sense, is A nightborne who came yesterday and Talanji with her priest stuff and that isn't like much.

[Alanar]

There was another Alleria hardcore fanboy who used to change name and avatar from time to time. Not sure if it's the same person, but definitely as much annoying.
These people also argue how Sylvanas fanboys are wrong, lmao.

Nope its the same person..

[Wangming]

I'd argue Illidan was retconned for his BC appearance given that he had little reason to do what he did other than the early devs being all "Hey you know what would sound good? If we added a bunch of iconic villains all in one expansion!" instead of how he should have been correctly portrayed as. That's like if in WOTLK, The Lich King decided to instead invade Un'goro Crater because those devs thought it'd be cool. It doesn't make sense for that character to do anything like that, so is it retconning or is it fixing an obvious mistake without completely changing the story by attempting to give a somewhat valid reason for their actions? (in my example, they'd have to try to incorporate the titan waygate between Sholazar Basin and Un'goro Crater to not completely erase what the previous devs did)

That's the issue when you have multiple hands touching a story for over 15 years. Not every one of them has the same vision or thought process when determining how best to write the narrative, and that's fine. They're at least trying to keep it semi-coherent without resorting to "...and then Thrall woke up from a dream, seeing a vision of all 40 years ahead"

BC had some issues, like wasting Vash as a random raid boss, but I didn't have much problem with Illidan. I mean sure he mostly did what he believed was good for the Night Elves, but he was willing to strike a deal with Kil'Jaeden AKA the Deceiver if it meant more power to him. His thout process was mostly:

Malfurion: Don't do that thing
Tyrande: Don't do that thing
Cenarius: Don't do that thing
Elune: Don't do that thing
Maiev: Don't do that thing or else
Illidan: Imma do that thing cause it will give me unlimited powaaa

[Alanar]

Anduin basically told her to stfu and pointed out her hypocrisy. Jaina like a good girl stopped bothering Alleria and Turalyon. That's basically what happened.

I'm not defending Alleria, I'm pointing out how Jaina is acting like a self-entitled asshole in this novel.

You are always defending alleria.. you are known for that.
Its hard not to see your view as bias.

- - - Updated - - -

One easily missable minor thing, by the way: the book finally got Talanji to say "For the Horde" :P

She said that in the game already.

[FlasKamel]

I'll just share my honest opinion, so here's some negativity for y'all:
I dislike most of this, but I wouldn't call it bad. I just don't like the new focus on very character driven stories, especially when I think all of them but Lor'themar and Bwomsamdi are terrible and uninteresting. In World of Warcraft I care about the world, the cultures and the races - not individuals (there's so many of them too). Sure, there was some of that this time, but not enough for me to care.

You can say "BUT WC3 FOCUSED ON THRALL AND ARTHAS" - sure, but those were full games, where the most interesting part was the orcs, humans and undead - not the leaders themselves.

I DID like the Turalyon/Alleria thing, and learning about the Zandalari's passage into the Shadowlands tho.

And I hate Zappy Boi so much.

[Mehrunes]

That's not really the same thing. Same as Alliance killing Horde is not the same thing as Forsaken killing Alliance and raising them.
Also - at the time of the Purge of Dalaran Jaina was not part of the Alliance - she was the leader of the Council of Six. However you want to spin this, her actions at that time are not tied to the Alliance. Whereas right now, Alleria and Turalyon are high ranking officers of the Alliance, and what they do is directly tied with Alliance ways. And these are not the Alliance ways.

Now, I don't disagree with your point about whether Jaina ha the right to call Alleria out or not. Especially since, as @Ardenaso said, Jaina killing people in the square is a bug. Blizzard confirmed that on Reddit. Admittedly, they did so around half a decade after the fact (which is particularly weird given how they talked about the missing part of Aethas walking in on the smuggling of the bell almost immediately). But that's just Blizzard being Blizzard.

However, while Jaina was indeed not a part of the Alliance herself during the Purge of Dalaran, the claim that her actions are not tied to the Alliance is wrong. Varian sent a batallion of Stormwind troops to help with the Purge, making the Purge a joint Jaina and Alliance operation. By teaming up and giving Jaina his support, Varian personally tied the event to the Alliance.

[DemonHunter18]

BC had some issues, like wasting Vash as a random raid boss, but I didn't have much problem with Illidan. I mean sure he mostly did what he believed was good for the Night Elves, but he was willing to strike a deal with Kil'Jaeden AKA the Deceiver if it meant more power to him. His thout process was mostly:

Malfurion: Don't do that thing
Tyrande: Don't do that thing
Cenarius: Don't do that thing
Elune: Don't do that thing
Maiev: Don't do that thing or else
Illidan: Imma do that thing cause it will give me unlimited powaaa

it was more about how he was developed as a villain rather than him being a villain.

I mean, when you have Blizzard openly stating that he was made a villain because of epics then you know how bad TBC was.

it's not just him btw.

same with Kael and even him had more spotlight.

[VinceVega]

So we're just going to ignore that Alleria's void powers saved the Alliance from annihilation at the Battle of Lordaeron? Because if she hadn't opened a void rift for void elves and gnomish reinforcements, then the Alliance army (Anduin and Jaina included) would have been surrounded and overwhelmed by Nathanos' forces, since they fell right into a trap. What does Alleria need to do to prove to the Alliance that void elves and their void power are, in fact, trustworthy? Let alone the fact that Jaina's plan to attack Dazar'alor worked only thanks to Magister Umbric opening a void portal to Rastakhan's gold vaults, so that they could take the scepter.

I don't even care if Blizzard wants Alleria to be an evil Void user, whatever, but the Alliance in this novel does not give Alleria and her people the respect they deserve for their contributions in the Fourth War.

Who the hell said that? Helping doesn't give you a free pass for everything. Sylvannas helped the horde and the world on numerous occations. Should the nightelfes stand there and thank her for burning down her tree?
No.
Good tasks do not justify wrong ones.
She doesn't need to proove anything as the alliance allready trusts her. She is a high ranking member of the alliance with a good deal of freedom in how she gets shit done. That doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with her methods or should ignore them if they think it is wrong.

[LemonDemonGirl]

You are always defending alleria.. you are known for that.
Its hard not to see your view as bias.

I hope I'm not becoming like that

[Fewane]

She said that in the game already.

Did she? Not at the end of the allied race quest chain at least. That ends with her asserting that she won't bow to Sylvanas with "I am de queen of Zandalar. And a queen kneels to no one. Surely, you understand." If she did the "For the Horde" in another place, I must have missed it, that's entirely possible.

(At the end of the allied race chains, only she and the Vulpera dodge doing "For the Horde" rote, I think?)

[LemonDemonGirl]

I'll just share my honest opinion, so here's some negativity for y'all:
I dislike most of this, but I wouldn't call it bad. I just don't like the new focus on very character driven stories, especially when I think all of them, but Lor'themar and Bwomsamdi are terrible and uninteresting. In World of Warcraft I care about the world, the cultures and the races - not individuals (there's so many of them too). Sure, there was some of that this time, but not enough for me to care.

You can say "BUT WC3 FOCUSED ON THRALL AND ARTHAS" - sure, but those were full games, where the most interesting part was the orcs, humans and undead - not the leaders themselves.

I DID like the Turalyon/Alleria thing, and learning about the Zandalari's passage into the Shadowlands tho.

And I hate Zappy Boi so much.

How is Bwonsamdi not interesting? I don't get it. Lor'themar I can agree on. He's just not himself after the Isle of Thunder

I care about how the Zandalari will be in Shadowlands though

[Mehrunes]

So we're just going to ignore that Alleria's void powers saved the Alliance from annihilation at the Battle of Lordaeron? Because if she hadn't opened a void rift for void elves and gnomish reinforcements, then the Alliance army (Anduin and Jaina included) would have been surrounded and overwhelmed by Nathanos' forces, since they fell right into a trap. What does Alleria need to do to prove to the Alliance that void elves and their void power are, in fact, trustworthy? Let alone the fact that Jaina's plan to attack Dazar'alor worked only thanks to Magister Umbric opening a void portal to Rastakhan's gold vaults, so that they could take the scepter.

Alleria did no such thing at Lordaeron. Blizzard may have tried to portray that way, but the scene that lead to this doesn't actually establish such an idea and Blizzard didn't realize it because how absolutely inept their writers are. The issue Anduin and Jaina's team ran into wasn't just Nathanos. It was the fact that Nathanos and his squad had Blight ready to deploy on the Alliance. The same Blight that just demolished the Alliance moments later at the front gates and would have destroyed the Alliance if not Jaina and machina.

Because neither Alleria nor any of the troops she teleported spawned right on top of the Blight containers or the people operating them, her arrival didn't actually change anything in regards to Anduin's and Jaina's situation. The fact that they all survived has consequently nothing to do with Alleria and everything to do with Alliance having a thousand layers of plot armor at Lordaeron.

Also, Alleria herself admits she will eventually fall to the Void, so your insistence that Alliance should trust her is contradicted by Alleria herself.

[Aucald]

I like how Bwonsamdi is still able to kick arse even when he's severely weakened. He's not easy prey. Also, nice try Nathanos, you tiny toy bow and trick won't defeat THE Loa of Death. Try again lol


And I like how he just summons a crapton of spirits and sends them after the troll Cultists. I had the feeling he would do that

Bwonsamdi was very interesting in the book, and it seemed to paint him much more benevolent than he seemed in BfA generally speaking. Still not one to be pushed, mocked, or condescended to - but receptive to both earnest praise and a bit of flattery.

I also appreciated Roux's attention to detail concerning Zandalar, it made it very easy to sort of visualize what was happening with her use of landmarks and in-game geography. The fight in the Necropolis was especially nice because I could almost see it as an in-game set-piece - like it was a cut-scene or cinematic in its own rite.

[FlasKamel]

How is Bwonsamdi not interesting? I don't get it. Lor'themar I can agree on. He's just not himself after the Isle of Thunder

I care about how the Zandalari will be in Shadowlands though

It says "everyone but"

[DemonHunter18]

he just being a random orc is boring, you have all the alliance leaders as strong magic uses and way powerful mortals, like malfurion who killed hundred of orcs in the war of thorns, Jaina with her magic ship, alleria and turallyon with their OP powers, Anduin blasting people with light or healing an army.

In the horde you have a dude with an axe, a dude with a bow and another with a mace.

The only powerful leaders, that i can think off, in the magic sense, is A nightborne who came yesterday and Talanji with her priest stuff and that isn't like much.

even with all that power, they were weaker than the Horde LOL.

if Saurfang didn't switch sides then ufff...

Blizzard is largely inconsistent with their armies and powerful characters.

at one point, Malfurion almost drowned both armies (demons and night elves) when he was sad back when he was less powerful than today but then in the other he struggles with some foot soldiers.

Jaina froze Necropolis and cracked it with firestorm but then struggles to move an elf with all of her arcane might while the guy wasn't even using magic.

at this point, they'll be as powerful as the plot demands it.

[Varodoc]

Who the hell said that? Helping doesn't give you a free pass for everything. Sylvannas helped the horde and the world on numerous occations. Should the nightelfes stand there and thank her for burning down her tree?
No.
Good tasks do not justify wrong ones.
She doesn't need to proove anything as the alliance allready trusts her. She is a high ranking member of the alliance with a good deal of freedom in how she gets shit done. That doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with her methods or should ignore them if they think it is wrong.

That wasn't a wrong task at all. They got the information they needed. Even Anduin defended Alleria and told Jaina to stop it because she isn't much better.

Which is the right thing to do. Jaina owes a lot of her success in BfA, including her own survival past the pre-patch, to the void elves. She has no right to insult them or claim that they are untrustworthy.

Jaina is not asked to agree with everything Alleria does. Alleria doesn't need Jaina's consent. Jaina is simply asked to not start drama and act like she's so superior. "The Alliance already trusts her", very clearly this is not true since Jaina said that Alleria is untrustworthy.

[Sorrowseer]

Vulpera can now amputate and replace limbs.

Context? Forsaken limbs? anyones limbs?