There's no room for PoE-like games

[deenman]

Except the game isn't just about the D2 fanbase and they aren't the arbiter of where Diablo goes/alwaysknowswhats right. And stop with the Biber comparison, its absurd.

its actualy a fair comparison,some people like d3 and think its fine/gr8,some dont,maybe a better comparison is classic vs bfa,a lot of the people that play classic think bfa is a failure,but it still broke sales records and did well financialy all its lifespan,and i didnt say the d2 fanbase are some ultimate arbiters lol

[Redroniksre]

its not a failure financialy,but its clearly not the kind of game the d2 fanbase wanted,for them its pretty much a failure,justin bieber is a milionair,but plenty see him as a failure of an artist,its not all black or white

It was a game more aimed towards modern day ARPG players for sure. Honestly a remastered D2 would be nice to play, but for me personally, the combat would have to be fixed up. It was okay for the time it came out, but now it handles extremely jank. It had some nice systems though that is for sure.

[Coolthulhu]

Saying "PoE-like" is insinuating PoE was the pioneer and there are more coming after it. In a Diablo forum, shouldn't it read "There's no room for Diablo-like games"?

PoE is what we should've gotten instead of D3, and what saved us from having to play D3 till D4. Which will sell and will be played because it'll be a new Diablo game, make no mistake. Hell, people played D3 in his first, horrible phases.
So yeah, I even see myself buying D4, playing through it with one or two classes, but then I'll likely go back to PoE, unless Blizzard somehow manages to make something truly mind-blowing out of D4 (and given their love for dumbification and standardization I won't be holding my breath on it).

[Tojara]

The thread premise is absolutely retarded. Also claiming that D3 was a failure is incredibly silly. D3 was a commercial success and only really met major criticism a few months after it's launch, when people started to realize how shallow both the difficulty and reward structure was in the game. Whatever D3 ended up being personally to you is fine, but overall Diablo 3 is an incredibly successful title, regardless of whether or not it met it's 'potential'.

PoE is obviously doing well, so there's absolutely room for PoE-like games. The lack of 'room' probably has something to do with PoE being a superior product to any ARPG that's been released recently, simply because the game is iterated on and changed every 3 months. This makes it pretty hard for any ARPG to be taken seriously because everybody is going to compare it to a well oiled machine, regardless of whether or not it has faults or not. It's the same as WoW. MMOs occasionally get released but many of them fade and die away simply because none of them are going to release with even a quarter of the features that WoW has introduced over 15 years.

Saying D3 is a failure is completely asinine. I think PoE is a superior game, but it would be retarded for me to state that I think Diablo 3 is actually awful, especially after RoS was released. I have friends who think D3 is shit, yet sunk hundreds of hours into the game, which simply doesn't compute to me. Being critical is fine, thinking that you didn't get your moneys worth is something entirely different. While I think D3 being a lot more like D2 would've been a good thing, it would've run into the exact same problems anyways. There's little incentive in this day in age to continue supporting an ARPG without using a model like PoE to keep it fresh and interesting. D2 and D3 were both released under the model of box sales exclusively, with both getting patches along the way (D2 only had a few major revamps and patches, while D3 has some pretty bare bones seasonal updates at this point). The core game play loop and depth of PoE is superior, but it also tacks on most seasonal content to the core game play, something that D3 can't do because the game play loop is a bit too shallow.

There absolutely is room for PoE like games. D4 is going to sell incredibly well based on name alone. Whether it becomes a 'good' game or is entirely up the direction they take it. I'm of the opinion that ARPGs are healthiest when they have continued support, and realistically that can't be done without some sort of system like PoE does. D3s only real fault is that it's too shallow and isn't supported enough, it certainly isn't how the game handles or performs (PoE performance is terrible lol).

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't think there is room PoE-like games (hack and slash). Chaosbane wasn't that succesful and D3 was also fail. Can't see how D4 is going to success.

Wouldn't it be more correct to say PoE is a Diablo type game? And while I am being more correct then Diablo 3 was a massive success. Of course there is room for more Diablo type games, hence Diablo 4 coming out.

[Usernameforforums]

I don't think there is room PoE-like games (hack and slash). Chaosbane wasn't that succesful and D3 was also fail. Can't see how D4 is going to success.

Diablo 3 is a success. Yeah the launch was a failure but it has since been better from the release of RoS. About as many people, if not more, participate in the seasons for diablo and poe.

There are other games like grim dawn and torchlight that are pretty popular as well. Not as popular as poe and diablo but it has its cult.

[jackofwind]

its not a failure financialy,but its clearly not the kind of game the d2 fanbase wanted,for them its pretty much a failure,justin bieber is a milionair,but plenty see him as a failure of an artist,its not all black or white

You have a super narrow minded view of what success is. People dislike Justin Bieber's music but he's indisputably a successful artist. To say otherwise is silly, like saying that the Marvel cinematic universe wasn't a successful endeavor.

Your personal opinion of something doesn't make it objectively successful or not, it just shows whether or not you like it. You don't like D3, but it's successful despite your opinion. It's a top-10 bestselling game - it's successful. If you wrote a book and some people thought it was shit but it became the bestselling book of all-time would you consider it a failure?

You're just part of a vocal minority trying to spit against the wind. D3 was hugely successful for millions of people. Just because it didn't cater to your whims (or mine for that matter) doesn't mean it's entire success hinges on your silly opinion of it.

[Erous]

PoE is what we should've gotten instead of D3, and what saved us from having to play D3 till D4. Which will sell and will be played because it'll be a new Diablo game, make no mistake. Hell, people played D3 in his first, horrible phases.
So yeah, I even see myself buying D4, playing through it with one or two classes, but then I'll likely go back to PoE, unless Blizzard somehow manages to make something truly mind-blowing out of D4 (and given their love for dumbification and standardization I won't be holding my breath on it).

I hear you. We're Diablo fans. We're actually in the "I played D3 when there were real money transactions" club, and we still play D3. We're excited for Diablo 4 also...but the new PoE did catch my eye. I do NOT like the current PoE whatsoever, mind you.

[bbr]

Since when are diablo-like games poe-like games?

grim dawn and van hellsing say otherwise, as well as titan quest, and obviously Poe

[SirBeef]

PoE is what we should've gotten instead of D3, and what saved us from having to play D3 till D4. Which will sell and will be played because it'll be a new Diablo game, make no mistake. Hell, people played D3 in his first, horrible phases.
So yeah, I even see myself buying D4, playing through it with one or two classes, but then I'll likely go back to PoE, unless Blizzard somehow manages to make something truly mind-blowing out of D4 (and given their love for dumbification and standardization I won't be holding my breath on it).

As somone who was looking forward to PoE and could just never get into it because the janky combat, and over convoluted systems, I'm glad we didn't get anything like PoE. D3 is not without faults, but it is certainly a better experience IMO than PoE.

For the record, I have tried it at launch, and most leagues since it launched and was only able to force my self to complete the campaign once. I found the game boring to play. And usually gave up some time after the 3rd/4th act. Finally completed the campaign last season and had o desire to even delve into endgame. I may check out PoE2, because I like the gem changes, but it looks more of the exact same stuff that kept me from enjoying the first one.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

As somone who was looking forward to PoE and could just never get into it because the janky combat, and over convoluted systems, I'm glad we didn't get anything like PoE. D3 is not without faults, but it is certainly a better experience IMO than PoE.

For the record, I have tried it at launch, and most leagues since it launched and was only able to force my self to complete the campaign once. I found the game boring to play. And usually gave up some time after the 3rd/4th act. Finally completed the campaign last season and had o desire to even delve into endgame. I may check out PoE2, because I like the gem changes, but it looks more of the exact same stuff that kept me from enjoying the first one.

I like how PoE controls better then D3 but thats me. Gameplay isn't bad persay its probably on D3's level(Oh no I said the thing). I barely know whats going on in the story though much as I try.

[bloodwulf]

As someone that has 3000+ hours in both POE and Diablo franchise (probably 1500 or more in D3), there is plenty of room for a new game.

D3 lacks sufficient endgame. It turns into paragon grind and GRift grind (which essentially is just a +health/+damage modifier to mobs). It also does very little to refresh between seasons. Its fun for a week or two but then its over and move on.

That said.

POE is getting long in the tooth. GGG is starting to lose direction it seems. Instead of fixing existing systems (item unveil and trade for example) they just add new systems that are targeted at bandaiding over them (harvest crafting). They have also been extremely slow to react to quality feedback (most of the harvest changes were feedback to even prior to harvest launch). I love the game and still put hundreds of hours into every league, but to be honest, I really hope POE2 is the shakeup they are building it up to be.

POE is the obvious juggernaut and rightfully so because GGG has put so much effort into their leagues and providing content so frequently. Its just a shame that Chris Wilson gets his feelings hurt so much that the subreddit had to implement carebear censoring to keep him happy. Chris and his infamous manifestos are what is wrong with POE. GGG historically seems to care about their playerbase but some of the recent decisions are sketchy at best (league stash tabs even though they said they would rather fix existing ones at Exilecon for example).

Diablo 4 needs to provide Blizzard level visual fluidity, with a mechanically crunchier system than what D3 was. They did it perfectly before (D2 LOD) and they have reference games to look at (POE,Last Epoch, Wolcen) to learn what works (meaty systems and regular content drops as in POE) and what doesn't (basically all of Wolcen). If they pull this off they will have a juggernaut again.



ALSO, they are ARPGs, not POE-like or Diablo-like. The genre is ARPGs, and encompasses older Dark Alliance games and Titanquest to new games like Lost Ark and Last Epoch.

[SirBeef]

I like how PoE controls better then D3 but thats me. Gameplay isn't bad persay its probably on D3's level(Oh no I said the thing). I barely know whats going on in the story though much as I try.

Man I feel just the opposite. PoE controls like shit. It feels like a somewhat slightly faster D2. D3 feels buttery smooth and responsive, like no other ARPG. And I play them all.

[Coldkil]

-snip-

My main issues with PoE are basically two (since skills/sockets are going to be dealt with through PoE2 and i'm just waiting for that):

- as you said, Leagues tend to bloat the systems instead of fixing the issues. They're fun and everything but for the most part it's just "farm this additional new currency to make things work". Not really fond of that while additions to endgame activities and bosses are very good imho.

- the focus on GOGOGO and uberfast meta. I love how i can truly customize my character, but since there are extremes in power GGG decided to deal with it the wrongest way. This just results in a handful of build being 10000x better than everything else while it's still pretty likley you fall into "traps" and make your character useless.

For the rest, i'm really waiting for PoE2, i want to play the new and improved game.

[bloodwulf]

My main issues with PoE are basically two (since skills/sockets are going to be dealt with through PoE2 and i'm just waiting for that):

- as you said, Leagues tend to bloat the systems instead of fixing the issues. They're fun and everything but for the most part it's just "farm this additional new currency to make things work". Not really fond of that while additions to endgame activities and bosses are very good imho.

- the focus on GOGOGO and uberfast meta. I love how i can truly customize my character, but since there are extremes in power GGG decided to deal with it the wrongest way. This just results in a handful of build being 10000x better than everything else while it's still pretty likley you fall into "traps" and make your character useless.

For the rest, i'm really waiting for PoE2, i want to play the new and improved game.

Agree with number 1 entirely. I think a new league that focused on clean up and polish would be well warranted.

With number 2, yes there is a desire for speed, because the way the end game loop is, but i don't think its required, and i think more builds work than people give them credit for. People feel to play in trade league, they have to have 10 exalts by week one and farming t16 with 100% delirium, which is wrong. Bottomline is, this is a game, and people should play what they feel is fun. If mathil can make a flamedash totem character clear all content, then someone can make a relatively normal build clear all content with some points in the wrong place. Yes there are good builds, but every game in every genre has better builds/loadouts/specs/kits etc than others. I play SSF and i have 5 characters in harvest that can clear t16, and farm sirus. I might not of got there as fast as Empyrian and his crew, but i did not compromise my enjoyment.


As this is a topic in the diablo thread, i feel that if anything, Diablo is worse about the second issue. Diablo's endgame is focused almost exclusively on pushing Grifts, and there are not near as many builds that can push 100+ as there are builds in POE that can clear T16s/Sirus.

[kenn9530]

I don't think there is room PoE-like games (hack and slash). Chaosbane wasn't that succesful and D3 was also fail. Can't see how D4 is going to success.

selling 12 million copies means a fail then i want to know what you are smoking.

[bloodwulf]

Diablo 4 will sell millions with the franchise alone. But if it aims for a even little more casual approach instead of going fully hardcore unlike PoE it will also be very successful. By going non-Hardcore I don't mean the in-game HC mode but in general it should be more easier to approach as a game than PoE. Just like Diablo 3 is but modernized and slightly expanded (fully open world, for example).

Additionally, I bet it will also run better than PoE which has so many performance issues and it gets only worse every time GGG adds a new League / Mechanic to the game. The game was once very playable but isn't that anymore even on a modern PC which can run all the other games without any issues, yet PoE's performance is all over the place. It's Vulkan renderer helped a bit but the game is still a massive technical mess.

All early evidence is D4 is more mechanically dense than D3, but not as obtuse as POE (which i say with all love, i enjoy POE immensely). If they manage to secure that middle ground, it will be the go to ARPG on the market. POE will always be home to people that want 100s of mechanics layered on top of each other. I often compare Diablo series to POE the same way i compare D&D 5th Edition to Pathfinder 2.0. One is flashy, streamlined and easy to pick up, at the sacrifice of some depth, while the other is the mechanically "crunchy" system that sacrifices accessibility for nuance.

[Release]

All I want is the complexity with items and classes a game like Grim Dawn offers with the combat D3 offered. That is the perfect ARPG game and nothing like that is on the market right now. If D4 does happen to hit that sweet spot there is absolutely place for it.

[ParanoiD84]

Grim dawn is my favorite arpg, wonder if we will see a GD 2 in the future.

[bloodwulf]

Grim dawn is my favorite arpg, wonder if we will see a GD 2 in the future.

Id love for that. I came to GD too late in its life, and honestly while i found the game fun, the visuals really made it a rough experience for me.