Unsocial in m+ = impossible to push?

[odamienskii]

i am really struggling in m+ i am currently 4400 rio and im finding it so so hard, not because i lack skill but because i lack social skills.

I know so much about the game and how to play but i have crippling social anxiety so i do not speak, i played with a rogue the other day who has the same understanding as me, all the calls of combinations for caster packs he did and called for the warrior tank (who needed help)

Spell reflect > aoe stun > aoe fear > db > spell reflect > aoe stun > single interupt yada yada........beautiful! the first player ive seen calling that stuff, my only critisism, he didnt add a vortex knockback in that rotation, thats his fault? no its mine for having crippling social anxiety and not being able to say the simple thing of hey! im capable to help with my utilities too.

Every time i am in a party i see everyones fails, if there is a bit of a small brain dps whore i will prebark him on stuff i know he should be avoiding but probly wont, i never get thanked for this stuff because they do not even know they have gotten a carry. having arguements with mages and hunters about avoidance and how it helps the healer in text also is becoming a regular thing, so i suck it up and make sure those guys have more hots on them than the tank knowing full well in 24/25 they would be dead, what happens throughout the run? snidey comments aimed towards me, i dont know if its subconciously by the players because im not vocal and dont fit in but its nearly always unjustified and im always the first one to get blame fired at me.

24ml this week, tank does a big pull with 2 brutes, one charges me instantly so naturally i swiftmend ready for the regrowth, the swiftmend pulled aggro from the tank and i got melleed in the face, the parties response "healer how you dieing" "he sucks" no i dont suck, poor play by the rest of the party made it look like i suck, no misdirect from the hunter and not enough threat from the tank to ensure i dont pull aggro from 1 single heal, course because i dont speak i get the blame, and when i type i got melleed there response was yeah dont heal, so i dont heal and get charged by the second brute, my fault too? ofc i could of vortex 2nd in hindsight and not heal but i legit didnt expect to pull aggro from a single swiftmend, there was no hots anywhere else

24kr tyranical last week, i played with some 5.5k guys whos best tyranical kr was 22 deplete, in short they didnt play tyranical they are fortified gamers.
At the end of the dungeon as a resto druid when nobody died on any of the bosses purely down to how i set my toon up to be insane single target heal pump i was pretty proud of myself, not these guys... they critisise me because i did 11kdps overall, now i know on the surface it sounds like thats low but consider this

1) i am not a paladin i am a resto druid
2) it is not fortified it is tyranical
3) my corruption was not in ooze it was in masterful/versatile/haste

The 5.5k guys were argueing that if i kept sunfire/moonfire up i would do 30kdps easily, well, my uptime was 56% and total combined was 8k, why is it so low? because i had stacked more mastery than i would on say fortified. lets say i did 100% uptime, im still only doing 16-20kdps a difference of 5-8k, is this enough to make up the 6minutes we lacked at the end of the dungeon? no its not, i was scapegoated into being to blame, they didnt want to acknowledge that actually they simply didnt have the st dps (110k overall all of them) when you consider they are 5.5k id expect......well more.

Booted from the party being called a noob when clearly i know alot more about the depths of the game than they do, my first attempt with them to heal 24kr tyranical was always going to be safe, if we played regular i would of tweaked my gear a bit more to be a bit more aggressive and looked more to keep dots ticking closer to maybe 70/80% uptime but being honest i was in the most part nervous of how hard the bosses were going to hit and being extra cautious not to burn mana (dots cost mana)

Since going there i have realised the versatile build would of maybe been a much better way to go, im still learning, im not a retard. i just need good ppl to spam keys with.

If you arent incredibly bored of what i have written and can relate to what i have said id really love to find some ppl to play with that can respect me as a top level player and not just quickly pass the blame onto me because i dont speak, if i fail (im human) i will own it and apolagise, if theres something i can tinker to suit the party i will! i have gearsets in abundance, i just need some consistency to learn peoples playstyles/pulls and i have absolutely no doubt at all i will be back as world 10-15 like i was in legion, currently i feel like i am just hammering my head against the corruption boosted wall of players with little/no understanding other than how to sim output.

why do i play the game? i enjoy the hard content, as it is currently healing maximum 24s i am very underwhelmed with the difficulty bored and frustrated to the point im thinking i may aswell unsub because wow is mainly more than anything a social game over a skill based one.

Maybe i will feel a bit better getting this off my chest. im a chilled as heck guy il run keys all day every day keys i dont need but how am i meant to do this if as soon as a key depletes the whole party disbands or if i get in a premade they are very quick to lay blame at my door rather than accepting that maybe they are the ones that didnt play so good, even so... i dont complain to them about it as i said we all human! but come on be fair be honest, dont just lay the blame at the socially anxious guys door while he has actually played close to flawless the entire run.

[Tiev]

Seems to me there is one area that is lacking, which is impacting your progression. Sounds like a good opportunity to improve your communication skills?

Learning how to make suggestions without sounding confrontational is key.

[ONCHEhap]

I know that's easier said than done,but one thing that really helped me is to realise that pugs are irrelevant and you'll never see again given how WoW works nowadays,so you don't have to fear consequences if you defend yourself and talk back to them. I'm not encouraging you to be toxic of course,just trying to make you feel less afraid to talk,you can absolutely be more assertive without being an asshole.

More specifically,you should usually just consider DPS as dead meat,since they're both the most easily replacable members of your group,and almost always the least skilled and the most toxic,as well as prone to use healers or tanks as scapegoats for their own failure. It gets easier when you're talking to tools compared to talking to humans

[odamienskii]

I know that's easier said than done,but one thing that really helped me is to realise that pugs are irrelevant and you'll never see again given how WoW works nowadays,so you don't have to fear consequences if you defend yourself and talk back to them. I'm not encouraging you to be toxic of course,just trying to make you feel less afraid to talk,you can absolutely be more assertive without being an asshole.

More specifically,you should usually just consider DPS as dead meat,since they're both the most easily replacable members of your group,and almost always the least skilled and the most toxic,as well as prone to use healers or tanks as scapegoats for their own failure. It gets easier when you're talking to tools compared to talking to humans

While i appreciate your helpful comment it kinda defeats what my ultimate game goal is and that is to push insanely high keys like 26/27/28 and play with elite players, to do this i think you need consistency to configure routes / gearsets, hard spamming keys all week failing just as many keys as completing, the rogue i played with was true elite level but he was only 5.2k didnt play much he was exceptional in underot the co-ordination exactly when i needed a stun on thh swarmer so i could heal (hibernate spam) it was there from him not to mention him organising anything and everything, i could play with that guy all day

social anxiety makes me feel like im playing with rez sickness, im so gimped because of it and 24 keys simply arent fulfilling at all, underwhelming when i time a 24 key its not a sense of happiness its a sense of underachievement

[wtfbbq]

it's a great achievement that you went this high only with pugs, congrats

[Motso]

The higher level of content you push the more coordination will be required and at a certain point communication just becomes something you have to do. If your social anxiety is really that severe would it be worth making a couple of 'hi guys hows it going' macros and/or other conversational macros for stuff you find yourself wanting to say on the regular?
It honestly just sounds like you have hit a wall though, if you believe yourself to be at such an elite level of ability then the onus is on you to seek out and play with people at your level. If you want a silent run with people you know will play as well as you do, you gotta go looking for them. If you are running very high level content, and not speaking except to critique people who are also playing at that level (Whom you have to remember, probably believe they belong there and are doing the right thing) of course you are going to turn yourself into a target.

[Azerate]

it's a great achievement that you went this high only with pugs, congrats

This. At first I thought it was a typo. Seriously how much further would you like to go while pugging it? It sounds insane to me there are even successful pugs for keys of this range

[odamienskii]

The higher level of content you push the more coordination will be required and at a certain point communication just becomes something you have to do. If your social anxiety is really that severe would it be worth making a couple of 'hi guys hows it going' macros and/or other conversational macros for stuff you find yourself wanting to say on the regular?
It honestly just sounds like you have hit a wall though, if you believe yourself to be at such an elite level of ability then the onus is on you to seek out and play with people at your level. If you want a silent run with people you know will play as well as you do, you gotta go looking for them. If you are running very high level content, and not speaking except to critique people who are also playing at that level (Whom you have to remember, probably believe they belong there and are doing the right thing) of course you are going to turn yourself into a target.

Thanks for this, you hit the nail on the head really, when i type what i think to help the party i fear it is nearly always taken out of context like text can be, especially in such a toxic world like wow, its not that im confrontational im just making the point about things and people often i feel take it as an attack or a callout of them not being good enough.

Because im not vocal they cant hear me laughing at there jokes and dont realise im actually having a good time with them, thats another thing, im quite funny i make ppl laugh in text, but they dont know that im laughing with them too, or if something is going horrificly bad sometimes i will find it hilarious, in the past i have actually been in tears of laughter at how bad a run is going, they dont know this for all they know im raging.

[Trend]

social anxiety makes me feel like im playing with rez sickness

I would suggest putting effort into addressing the root issue rather than focusing on pushing keys. I am not trying to be condescending. We all have issues and some are willing to face them and work on self improvement and others are just content to keep doing the same things. If you have difficulty forming relationships and/or establishing emotional boundaries, the internet is a terrible place in general and gaming is particularly awful.

[ZazuuPriest]

I know so much about the game and how to play but i have crippling social anxiety so i do not speak, i played with a rogue the other day who has the same understanding as me, all the calls of combinations for caster packs he did and called for the warrior tank (who needed help)

Stop being pathetic, problem solved

[schwarzkopf]

i am really struggling in m+ i am currently 4400 rio and im finding it so so hard, not because i lack skill but because i lack social skills.

If you are on 4400 - you aren't struggling at all, congratulations on being one of the lucky ones.

I get 1 or 2 M+ runs a week at best... with hours and hours of waiting in between - at 1600 and could push higher if I could get more runs.

So no - you are not struggling OP, you are doing absolutely fine.

[mauserr]

Stop being pathetic, problem solved

at least he's 4,4k rio and you're a scrub that's getting declined for a +15 weekly depleto run, ez bratan

[Autoriot]

You touched on it, but you should find yourself a set group instead of pug'ing. One, it will help with some of the toxicity, and two, maybe you'll be able to speak with the group if you play with them more often and get comfortable speaking around them.

If your anxiety is so bad that you cannot even speak with a set group that you get to know, then that is a larger issue that you should work on for sure with a Doctor/Psychiatrist.

[Mrbleedinggums]

As others are saying, it looks like you already understand and acknowledge the main concern here that you can improve on, which is your social skills.

Just try to be friendly or even just roleplay as if that's how your character is. Even a friendly "hi everyone, how's it going?" in chat usually goes a long way. If you guys wipe just post "no worries guys and gals, we got this!" and maybe a "Anyone have any suggestions how to handle this next pack? That bruiser keeps charging me at the start, should we probably root that add?". Even if you know what to do, by constructing your comment into an open ended question with a possible suggestion, it gets the other people thinking and more likely to have a positive reaction.

You don't have to go above and beyond in holding a conversation, just some kind suggestions that you can even pose as a question to have the other person agree with. If you know the dps are wiping the group because they aoe all the adds down and get too many stacks maybe form it as "hey guys, sorry but i cant keep up with that many stacks. can we try spreading the dps out a bit more so that we manage the stacks better?"

[ZazuuPriest]

at least he's 4,4k rio and you're a scrub that's getting declined for a +15 weekly depleto run, ez bratan

interesting assumption, must have been looking in a mirror and gotten confused

[odamienskii]

If you are on 4400 - you aren't struggling at all, congratulations on being one of the lucky ones.

I get 1 or 2 M+ runs a week at best... with hours and hours of waiting in between - at 1600 and could push higher if I could get more runs.

So no - you are not struggling OP, you are doing absolutely fine.

oh im struggling, im struggling really bad, 24s are painfully easy for me, the struggle is trying to get to a level that i will find difficult, to do that i need people that are good enough for it and wont rage if a key depletes or someone makes a human error. thats what im struggling with that part, not the actual game.

23s/24s are puggable so no im not struggling with the game up to 4400 its getting to the level i want to be to actually test myself im really struggling with because nobody will take me and even if they do they dont keep me around due to no comms.

[ID811717]

snip

I can add this to the list of fun situations when pugging high keys as a healer: some people are very vocal and annoying (very few, but you will meet them more than once). Every time they die - they immediately start asking something along the lines "why did I die, did you not heal me?". Which sounds passive-aggressive right off the bat. That always makes me think: ok, I know exactly what happened, but do you really want to stop and spend 5 min discussing the chain of events that lead to your death?!

I know that's easier said than done,but one thing that really helped me is to realise that pugs are irrelevant and you'll never see again given how WoW works nowadays,so you don't have to fear consequences if you defend yourself and talk back to them. I'm not encouraging you to be toxic of course,just trying to make you feel less afraid to talk,you can absolutely be more assertive without being an asshole.

More specifically,you should usually just consider DPS as dead meat,since they're both the most easily replacable members of your group,and almost always the least skilled and the most toxic,as well as prone to use healers or tanks as scapegoats for their own failure. It gets easier when you're talking to tools compared to talking to humans

The OP is ranked around top 3000 in the world, so he might be able to get away with it for a little while... But as you get into top 1000 and above, you start meeting the same people over and over again. You develop reputation, and if you keep behaving as if other players are not relevant - you'll have a hard time getting any pug invites anymore. I still remember some players both in Legion and BfA (especially Dominique!) who kept buying name changes just to try starting from a clean slate, but to no avail.

Even if you're playing at rank 50k or 300k only, good social skills go a long way. I am still in touch with some M+ players I met and added in the first 1-2 patches of Legion when I was only starting to aspire to play high keys. Acting the way you suggested is very counter-productive if you want to climb the ladder.

Anything above +15 is not PUG material. That's just for guilds and friends. It's not that it's too hard to PUG. It's that it's not healthy on your sanity to PUG.

That's a myth. No one builds a group to push +16s and end up playing +26s with the same group months later. If you want to achieve anything, you have to go out there and pug a lot (regardless of whether you are also playing with a premade group at the same time). Sticking to a fixed premade group will only lead to a quick and easy way to plateau in a rather low score bracket.

The comfort of a premade group is not needed (and is actually harmful) until you reach +24/+25 level keys. You're much better off going out there and actively learning from all the people (of your score bracket) you meet in pug groups. To reach these key levels, you do not need some insane group cohesion, but rather a lot of straightforward dungeon/strat/route/class knowledge.

The higher level of content you push the more coordination will be required and at a certain point communication just becomes something you have to do. If your social anxiety is really that severe would it be worth making a couple of 'hi guys hows it going' macros and/or other conversational macros for stuff you find yourself wanting to say on the regular?

Having any sort of macros would look really weird. All communication in high keys happens in discord voice. And a lot of top players are very good at communicating... So it is fair that less vocal people could feel out of place in comparison. Besides just the pure social skills, people also initially worry about the language barrier (do I speak clear enough, is my English enough, and is my mic good?). I can certainly relate to all of this, from past experiences both in real life and in WoW. But when you spend hours upon hours upon hours speaking English in discord voice, you eventually just get over all of this, it becomes a very standard experience.... Also, I guess that's also one example of a transferable skill that you can get in many ways. If you have a raiding guild that spends hours of free time on discord voice, you might have gotten that basic experience there. Or if you spent a lot of time travelling to/living in an English-speaking county...

Thanks for this, you hit the nail on the head really, when i type what i think to help the party i fear it is nearly always taken out of context like text can be, especially in such a toxic world like wow, its not that im confrontational im just making the point about things and people often i feel take it as an attack or a callout of them not being good enough.

Because im not vocal they cant hear me laughing at there jokes and dont realise im actually having a good time with them, thats another thing, im quite funny i make ppl laugh in text, but they dont know that im laughing with them too, or if something is going horrificly bad sometimes i will find it hilarious, in the past i have actually been in tears of laughter at how bad a run is going, they dont know this for all they know im raging.

Yea, it is a hard sell to strangers. I can totally see how a silence can be misinterpreted as hostility ("I am above ya all, you do not deserve me speaking with you, mortals!"). I hope you are at least saying hellos and goodbyes on voice. I think that alone helps a lot even if you are going to use chat for the rest of the communication. It immediately makes you a lot more relatable (and proves you have a mic, for whatever it's worth).

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with quiet people arises when shot callers do not see clear reaction to their requests. They start questioning whether the quiet person understands English, or whether the quiet person is even listening. It might be OK for a while, as long as the no-mic person clearly reacts to the calls giving out externals/disrupts/etc. But as soon the first hiccup happens (even because of the caller's fault), people might immediately lose trust in the quiet person, and start mentally assigning some undeserved blame to them. So it certainly is very hard to be a non-speaking player in high M+ keys.

I think it's somewhat of a basic psychology... And as much as I understand exactly what and why goes wrong in the above, I don't think I can avoid being biased myself. The limited communication really makes everything hard.

[arkanon]

There really are only 2 options - try to join a guild or community, prove yourself with some lower keys, get to know people over time, and when you are comfortable, explain the situation to someone you trust and im sure they wont mind working with you. I have raided pretty high end stuff with people who were unable or unwilling to use their mic - one was Korean and felt embarrassed by her accent, and we raided 7 years with her before she spoke a work over voip - but she was always listening and followed instructions clearly.

The others were in dorm / community living situations, and didnt feel comfortable yapping away.

Your situation is different, but the result is the same - no communication. The thing is, communication has become more of a requirement as encounters and content demand quicker reactions. There are now many situations where you either bark out a request / order, or its a wipe / someone dies, and there really isnt a solution for that other than MAYBE aggro macros etc, but they would get very spammy very quickly, and are likely to annoy.

[klaps_05]

In higher keys nobody struggles to tank/heal/dps, the challenge comes from coordinating with 4 other ppl efficiently, executing strategy and making tactical decisions when necessary. Thats can be somewhat challenging for unsocial ppl - the performance of some of the best teams right now is due to them working well as a team and clicking as a group. When you remove group cohesion, the rest falls apart.

[schwarzkopf]

oh im struggling, im struggling really bad, 24s are painfully easy for me,

Ok .. this is obviously one of 'those' threads... I also feel sorry for Jeff Bezos and how much he is struggling.