Best way to bring out the stars in the Kaldorei (Children of the Stars)?

[Mace]

I think the best way to bring up their 'star' aspect without turning them into Nightborne would be to give Nelf Priests (and possibly mages) some star-based spell animations (Their old racial WAS Starshards after all), and essentially do a deep dive on Elune's connection to astronomy and arcane energy, as well as the Nelves other niches, with a spiritual focus as opposed to Nightborne's scholarly take on them.

This way Night elves are juxtaposted from Nightborne by having a broader focus (Arcane casters, Druidism and Sentinel/huntress/Warden/watcher martial aspects all with a different 'aspect' of Elune attached to them) While Nightborne are more specialized (It's all arcane with them, but they have a bit of Time Focus, Illusion Focus, and Shield Focus)

That is a credible idea...it can be an in game distinction....I also maintain the major difference between Nightborne and Night elves is that Nightborne only focus on the Highborne civilization side, while Night elves have that but a stronger influence in druidsm and religion of Elune. This is not to say nightborne cant gain druidsm and Elunism as Raven puts it, in fact, they should but it is focusing society in an urban setting, so you see more of that side of the kaldorei, but as I mentioned earlier, it depends how blizzard take the nightborne forward, do they keep theor kaldorei ide tity? Or just make them blood elf sidekicks

Several things to note is Highborne and Nightborne differences are like void elf and blood elf differences
Nightborne are not "of the stars" night elves are, but because they are connected strongly they can show this too.
Night elves should get racial star/moon spells if we ever get them, but Nightborne should have chronomancy/telemancy ones like warpcasting
Night elves should get star effects for hair, nightborne get arcane effects in hair.
Cultural star influence should be in both - i.e. the things Raven said on culture that I expanded on, but we should see night elves bringing some of this back to nightborne, but see some aspects of it in nightborne that we havent seen in niht elves IF blizzard choose to take the Nightborne in that direction.

[Specialka]

Can you share a bit of what you are smoking ?

You should drop the Elf fetish, it is starting to show. Do you also have personal pleasure on elf ?

[Mace]

This is true, it makes sense for what nightborne stands for and what they are.. night elves not so much.

That is only because Nightborne are Kaldorei based entirely, it will make no sense if blizzard take them away from what they are, so we will have to see.

But the irony about night elves is that indeed they are not so much this, but should be because that's what their name implies, but it's not been woven in much or expanded to the level of focus it ought to.

But it is there, you see it briefly in the priests and druid spells, but it's not talked about in lore and other signs arent shown.

This is likely to do with how content creators have fashioned content, but whereas art and systems picked it up - hence the spell abilities and the appearance/ emotes, it's like creative forgot to weave it in - except, the game and books never actually tell you much about the cultures, at least not in any serious detail or occasionally in fluff quests like the cooking racial dailies in cata that revealed about the rice bowls to the ancestors.

It is books like Traveller, or Warcraft RPG that have done the Lionshare of transitioning Azeroth from barebones to something more realistic, but even Traveller doesnt expand nearly enough, I think because blizzard hasn't really had this conversation for the races and gone out to flesh them out.

If they were to, and were serious to approach the night elves as they fully created them, the star focus would dominate the forest and arcane sides or rather permeate them such that it would be quite plain to all that the night and the stars is the first thing you think about the night elves before the forest or the pre-sundering civilization.

As long as their origin and name remain canon, failure to orientate the race around this will look very sloppy to anyone coming in to appraise the work or develop it further for a bigger game or a tv series.

You see the dragon prince animation covered above? Well night elves should be a combination of the Moon Elves and the Star elves. The religion should have that moon and star focus and it should have meaning in their lives.

I can easily see the moon elves part being the basis for the Sisterhood of Elune, if they were to flesh out the Order of Elune the sentinels and huntress would be like the Moon Elves, and the Priestesses and their mage chapter would be like the Moon Elf magician we meet.

Now the Moonguard, Highborne would be like the star elves - but the relevance and reliance on moon and stars for magic would be seen cultural in all of them. And hold great significance to them.

The druidic culture would be like the forest elves, because night elves are not all only about the moon and/or the stars, but the forest too and a small but elite section about demons.

This makes the night elves a broader race like humans, because it is a full race, humans have breadth and scope like this where everything is not all centred about 1 thing.

It is the fuller scope of the race, but it really hasn't been utilised well in warcraft, it is as if they started then stopped bothering, only focusing mainly on Malfurion. It's only very recently, Tyrande is getting limelight after next to nothing for the first 14 years in game.

But when you think of Trolls, the loa, voodoo,, jungle (switch environment based on troll group) and cunning warrior spring to mind

When you think of Night elves, the stars, the moon goddess Elune and her Sisterhood, the forest and the dark elf arcane wizardry civilization should be the first 4 things that come to mind

But for most people, only the forest comes to mind. If you are a huge fan of the lore like I was, forest and pre sundering civilization spring to mind.

Herein lies the issue and evidence how theyve fallen short.

[Specialka]

That is only because Nightborne are Kaldorei based entirely, it will make no sense if blizzard take them away from what they are, so we will have to see.

But the irony about night elves is that indeed they are not so much this, but should be because that's what their name implies, but it's not been woven in much or expanded to the level of focus it ought to.

But it is there, you see it briefly in the priests and druid spells, but it's not talked about in lore and other signs arent shown.

This is likely to do with how content creators have fashioned content, but whereas art and systems picked it up - hence the spell abilities and the appearance/ emotes, it's like creative forgot to weave it in - except, the game and books never actually tell you much about the cultures, at least not in any serious detail or occasionally in fluff quests like the cooking racial dailies in cata that revealed about the rice bowls to the ancestors.

It is books like Traveller, or Warcraft RPG that have done the Lionshare of transitioning Azeroth from barebones to something more realistic, but even Traveller doesnt expand nearly enough, I think because blizzard hasn't really had this conversation for the races and gone out to flesh them out.

If they were to, and were serious to approach the night elves as they fully created them, the star focus would dominate the forest and arcane sides or rather permeate them such that it would be quite plain to all that the night and the stars is the first thing you think about the night elves before the forest or the pre-sundering civilization.

As long as their origin and name remain canon, failure to orientate the race around this will look very sloppy to anyone coming in to appraise the work or develop it further for a bigger game or a tv series.

You see the dragon prince animation covered above? Well night elves should be a combination of the Moon Elves and the Star elves. The religion should have that moon and star focus and it should have meaning in their lives.

I can easily see the moon elves part being the basis for the Sisterhood of Elune, if they were to flesh out the Order of Elune the sentinels and huntress would be like the Moon Elves, and the Priestesses and their mage chapter would be like the Moon Elf magician we meet.

Now the Moonguard, Highborne would be like the star elves - but the relevance and reliance on moon and stars for magic would be seen cultural in all of them. And hold great significance to them.

The druidic culture would be like the forest elves, because night elves are not all only about the moon and/or the stars, but the forest too and a small but elite section about demons.

This makes the night elves a broader race like humans, because it is a full race, humans have breadth and scope like this where everything is not all centred about 1 thing.

It is the fuller scope of the race, but it really hasn't been utilised well in warcraft, it is as if they started then stopped bothering, only focusing mainly on Malfurion. It's only very recently, Tyrande is getting limelight after next to nothing for the first 14 years in game.

But when you think of Trolls, the loa, voodoo,, jungle (switch environment based on troll group) and cunning warrior spring to mind

When you think of Night elves, the stars, the moon goddess Elune and her Sisterhood, the forest and the dark elf arcane wizardry civilization should be the first 4 things that come to mind

But for most people, only the forest comes to mind. If you are a huge fan of the lore like I was, forest and pre sundering civilization spring to mind.

Herein lies the issue and evidence how theyve fallen short.

They are called Children of the Stars because when you sleep in the forest, you can see the stars. See ? EZ! Can we move on to an interesting subject or will you continue to spam non sense thread ?

[Alanar]

They are called Children of the Stars because when you sleep in the forest, you can see the stars. See ? EZ! Can we move on to an interesting subject or will you continue to spam non sense thread ?

Or just clubbing the childeren to make them see stars

[Powerogue]

When you think of Night elves, the stars, the moon goddess Elune and her Sisterhood, the forest and the dark elf arcane wizardry civilization should be the first 4 things that come to mind

But they're not, because that's not what the night elves are about.

They are fiercely divergent from the highborne after the Sundering, distrusting magic users and only begrudgingly even letting the survivors from the demon-siphoning cult of Dire Maul into their walls. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_elf

The nightborne on the other hand literally love to hang out in a place called the Court of Stars where they drink magic wine and have a raid boss who's an astronomer.

[Saltysquidoon]

The nightborne on the other hand literally love to hang out in a place called the Court of Stars where they drink magic wine and have a raid boss who's an astronomer.

I think we both know that's not how the game is played in these threads.

[Mace]

But they're not, because that's not what the night elves are about.

They are fiercely divergent from the highborne after the Sundering, distrusting magic users and only begrudgingly even letting the survivors from the demon-siphoning cult of Dire Maul into their walls. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_elf

The nightborne on the other hand literally love to hang out in a place called the Court of Stars where they drink magic wine and have a raid boss who's an astronomer.

An astronomer with no real stars? it's an echo to this time as a kaldorei, because the entire culture is based on the kaldorei, and you'd be kidding yourself to think otherwise. Their presence doesn't nullify the kaldorei or alter them, they affirm them rather. Until blizzard take the Nightborne away from their kaldorei roots. And turst me, giving them a star focus is doing the opposite of that.

[Syegfryed]

focusing on the druid balance part of it, balance mess up with star shenanigans

druid=night elf

[Powerogue]

An astronomer with no real stars? it's an echo to this time as a kaldorei, because the entire culture is based on the kaldorei, and you'd be kidding yourself to think otherwise. Their presence doesn't nullify the kaldorei or alter them, they affirm them rather. Until blizzard take the Nightborne away from their kaldorei roots. And turst me, giving them a star focus is doing the opposite of that.

The real question here is: what do you want? It can't possibly be kaldorei who exemplify traditional pre-sundering society with their focus on stars and magic, because they already exist and are already playable.

To make the night elves more like them would be to devalue their character and pointlessly make what are supposed to now be two different playable race themes the same.

[ravenmoon]

What do you mean? Its overkill to create a seperate thread when we already have 3 of those now, with just some slight differences. Its not worth the discussion with you anymore ravenmoon. You are not listening to others.. therefore its pointless. When you open a third thread and it ends in the same discussion people will get irritated by you.. and that already happend and tbh.. no one agrees with you besides mace, 99% all the time... all the people who respond to your threads dont agree with you over and over again. Do you consider this a healthy/usefull discussion ?

The way you view the night elves is just how YOU envision them, its your opinion and by no means law. We know there is a blue post of The argument of wood elves and dark elves combined is what made the night elves... well that all goodie and all but that is 15 years ago. Opinions and how they view that race can shift.. same as blood elves who had a major shift with the sunwell restored. I mean I get it.. there are no 2019/2020 blue posts regarding your view.. so you use old ones.. who are questionable to say the least.

You don't have to repeat everything Enigmaddict says, this topic is about ways to bring out more of the stars in the night elves, to think a bit more creatively about an aspect and identity the race is defined by that has a measure of expression in the game, but not enough to justify it's name.

However as to how I view the night elves? Please point out what exactly is wrong about that? The only thing that is remotely accurate is that screentime has lent a much heavier weight to the forest side of the night elves, however I don't believe what I've commented about the lore or the night elves is incorrect, because all of it is drawn from the text. The bits Mace wrote in his Misconceptions post are fairly accurate.

The point is those who love night elves actually wish for a bigger vision for them than just running around as forest elves they kinda just turned out to be in wow. It's not enough for us. We weren't satisfied with the night elf neglect, we weren't satisfied with the human sidekick conversion of the night elves, we weren't satisfied with night elves playing the victim constantly, - no one who has loved this race and seen the fuller extent to which it was originally designed is happy with them just being a fraction of that.

The complaints against me and other Nelf fans is largely coming from horde fans and those who night elves isn't such a high priority, you wouldn't care much if night elves were as neglected as gnomes or worse, you might half open a sleepy eyelid, but otherwise your focus would be on the race you really like. Not so for us, so excuse me if we continue to make a fuss about something we actually care the most about in warcraft.

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This is true, it makes sense for what nightborne stands for and what they are.. night elves not so much.

Nearly everything Nightborne stands for exists in night elves too, as apart of night elves. The only bit that isn't night elven is their ears curling upwards and their chronomancy developments.

They are a night elf sub-race, focusing soely on the kaldorei pre-sundering civilization. The rest of hte kaldorei have moved on from that culture, (apart from the Highborne), that is not to say the Night elves don't have great arcane mastery, or are incapable or lack desire to building cities as great as before, nor does it mean that the children of the stars is not their primary identifier and cultural focus.

It just means the night elves have continued to develop and have broader range than the nightborne, It doesn't mean the Nightborne replace the night elven arcane aspects or civilization aspects, it doesn't mean night elves are the wild elf group, they have a wild elf portion, but they're much more than that. Night elf culture even in urban areas will be different from nightborne, becuse they have the priesthood and druidism alongside the arcane and demonic. Their broad, reach and health is greater.

Nightborne will continue with their city state, and will only grow in that area as continuing their kaldorei traditions and likely in conjunction with the very kaldorei themselves. Without it they lose meaning as who they are and become something else. What is entirely up to the devs.

[Alanar]

You don't have to repeat everything Enigmaddict says, this topic is about ways to bring out more of the stars in the night elves, to think a bit more creatively about an aspect and identity the race is defined by that has a measure of expression in the game, but not enough to justify it's name.

However as to how I view the night elves? Please point out what exactly is wrong about that? The only thing that is remotely accurate is that screentime has lent a much heavier weight to the forest side of the night elves, however I don't believe what I've commented about the lore or the night elves is incorrect, because all of it is drawn from the text. The bits Mace wrote in his Misconceptions post are fairly accurate.

The point is those who love night elves actually wish for a bigger vision for them than just running around as forest elves they kinda just turned out to be in wow. It's not enough for us. We weren't satisfied with the night elf neglect, we weren't satisfied with the human sidekick conversion of the night elves, we weren't satisfied with night elves playing the victim constantly, - no one who has loved this race and seen the fuller extent to which it was originally designed is happy with them just being a fraction of that.

The complaints against me and other Nelf fans is largely coming from horde fans and those who night elves isn't such a high priority, you wouldn't care much if night elves were as neglected as gnomes or worse, you might half open a sleepy eyelid, but otherwise your focus would be on the race you really like. Not so for us, so excuse me if we continue to make a fuss about something we actually care the most about in warcraft.

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Nearly everything Nightborne stands for exists in night elves too, as apart of night elves. The only bit that isn't night elven is their ears curling upwards and their chronomancy developments.

They are a night elf sub-race, focusing soely on the kaldorei pre-sundering civilization. The rest of hte kaldorei have moved on from that culture, (apart from the Highborne), that is not to say the Night elves don't have great arcane mastery, or are incapable or lack desire to building cities as great as before, nor does it mean that the children of the stars is not their primary identifier and cultural focus.

It just means the night elves have continued to develop and have broader range than the nightborne, It doesn't mean the Nightborne replace the night elven arcane aspects or civilization aspects, it doesn't mean night elves are the wild elf group, they have a wild elf portion, but they're much more than that. Night elf culture even in urban areas will be different from nightborne, becuse they have the priesthood and druidism alongside the arcane and demonic. Their broad, reach and health is greater.

Nightborne will continue with their city state, and will only grow in that area as continuing their kaldorei traditions and likely in conjunction with the very kaldorei themselves. Without it they lose meaning as who they are and become something else. What is entirely up to the devs.

Excuse me? Ravenmoon I think you need to lower your tone first.

First of all I have been against your view since the beginning of time, I am not repeating what some one else said, ooh nono I am repeating my own opinion to you.

Your view is just how you envision the night elves. 99% of the people who come here dissagree with your fantasy.

So obviously some opinion cross eachother or sound the same.

We dont want, what you want.. not very hard. You are some one who puts hes foot between the door when some one is closing it.. you dont need to convince people and specially not when you create 4 differnt thread in 6 months time with just more of the same. People are fed up and bored of your essays of headcannon..

I have a sticker at my door saing: no relegion people or other uninvited guests, also no newspaper etc.

I get crazy vibes with you being some.one like that.. I realy dont like that. So if you continue pushing this so fanatical I will have to report you.

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The real question here is: what do you want? It can't possibly be kaldorei who exemplify traditional pre-sundering society with their focus on stars and magic, because they already exist and are already playable.

To make the night elves more like them would be to devalue their character and pointlessly make what are supposed to now be two different playable race themes the same.

I asked the same question.. and also pointed out I had concerns taking stuff from the nightborne that makes them nightborne.. so whats left that makes them unique then??

[ravenmoon]

The real question here is: what do you want? It can't possibly be kaldorei who exemplify traditional pre-sundering society with their focus on stars and magic, because they already exist and are already playable.

To make the night elves more like them would be to devalue their character and pointlessly make what are supposed to now be two different playable race themes the same.

I can only answer for myself, but Nightborne reflect night elves, it is meaningless to accuse night elves of being more like Nightbornea dn make that like iti s some wrong thing, when everything about Nightborne is Night elven except for chronomancy and developing ears that point upwards - and living without actually seeing the stars and moon.

So it isn't unsurprising to expect things you see in the nightborne to be available to the Night elves. However what I want is more than that, I want the original full flavour of the night elves out. The stars shoudl be the primary focus. currently they feel more liek Children of hte forest, it's over focused on, they need to bring out their chidlren of the stars.

I also would like to see more focus no their dark elf side, their Highborne/moonguard, cities, Moon priestess order, the high arcnae stuff.


Now, don't mistake what I say I want, from what I say they are. A common mistake some people here love making. Let language inform of the context intended, I think I make it pretty clear when I am stating fact, and when I am asking for something /giving my opinion/desires.

But if i make an opinion post, what's the point coming on and telling me or others that this is what "they want"? I mean duh yes. I literally ask people to also share what they want, but you come and tell them when they answer that this is what they want - it's hardly constructive - that's what I want to hear here. There is another topic for debating the validity of the other aspects of the night elves. if you want to question or challenge that the night elves shouldn't be focused ont he stars.. by all means go ahead.

I see no just cause for that, the topic is based onw who the night elves are, they are children of the stars, and wanting the race to reflect the name which is what names do you know..they define things, it's pointless if race doesn't reflect the meaning - this is why other groups change name, the High elves as Quel'dorei call their race quel'dorei, it's a race now, not a caste, amongst the night elves it's a caste, always has been, and continues to be Therefore Highborne are different from High elves - and that's not just in name, it's clear to see. Yet kaldorei remains the name.

This gives you an insight to the race. If you plug into druidism as I have, you find out that it's not about the night elf people, it's about nature and the world. it has a large night elf following because the night elves couldn't use arcane, and there's nothing else much for them to do/help except if they turn to helping out with nature. Unless they're female, where the Order of Elune is open up to them but only to a point, as a male you can never become Sister of Elune, the highest echelon of the order.

characterising the race as druids is a mistake, and i have noticed the earlier implementations of night elves always made this distinction subtly, I know players did not notice this, which is why they wondered why druids weren't involved in the cata horde attacks, and bitched about Malfurion not helping the night elves. They didn't understand.

But i can't blame them fully, the devs never decrypted the night elves for them, and imo many of the new devs don't understand either, and are actually just following the mis0interpreation leading to this mess.

If they came out and announced the night elves were changing their name to Children of the forest - i would no longer insist on holding true to the earlier concept. I would call for the original night elf to return, or for it to live on in addition. But the way I see it, the better option is to instead introduce a forest elf race, like the Night elf worgen, use that as the Worgen allied race, but heavily tied to nature, and call them children of the forest, so the night elf continues to be it's original which they make more of an effort to show.



We know the night elf was never created to just be a wood elf, so children of the stars is not levied as. As I mentioned in the other post:

Night elves were even more interesting, but blizzard destroyed them by reducing them to forest elves and suppressing every other aspect.


That a Quintet of strongly defined aspects: Arcane masters (highborne/moonguard), Druid naturists, Moon Priestesses, Amazonian female warriors, Edgy demonic Illidari - and this all wrapped under the banner of the stars - i.e. children of the stars.


But we almost only see night elves as mainly forest kin - the Highborne portion is tiny - no cities, no great arcane works, the demon hunter section is tiny too, barely around, short cameos, the moon priestess aspect is like the tiniest of the lot, you barely see them do anything or play any major role, the Amazonian female warrior/huntress you see a bit more off, but it's nothing compared to the Druids.


It's like they planned and mapped a wonder race, called them children of the stars, started with an incredible background story they made into a book, but the visual aspect started at the forest stage, and they forgot to progress it on properly. While they showed all these other aspects , which one stands out most to people?


It's not the stars, or the night, nor is it the arcane, or the females, nor the Moon goddess and her priestesses., it's the druids.. Even after Legion and it's well balanced portrayal of the night elves, you mostly see that foresty aspect.


They need to start showing the stars in Children of the stars, give them star effects in their models, glitter like stars on their hair as an alternative to vines, some of the tattoos should instead map star constellations on their skin, have head pieces and jewellery with stars / diamonds - yes, diamonds represent stars. Something like this.





Make night elves feel they are several things. We already got the full Illidari customisation : but Illidari should be usable as Warlocks, shadow priests and possibly rogues at the very least.


You need to look up character creation and feel you are making:
1. A Child of the stars
2. A Highborne night elf unmistaken
3. A wild forest night elf whether druid or hunter
4. An elegant Moon Priestess
5. An Illidari half demon night elf


These 5 qualities need to be available, and I'm afraid only the wild forest night elf and half demon night elf is fully satisfied.


Toned down version of this should do for the star tattoos.







Star effects on hair like glitter could have this sort of texture:

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Excuse me? Ravenmoon I think you need to lower your tone first.

First of all I have been against your view since the beginning of time, I am not repeating what some one else said, ooh nono I am repeating my own opinion to you.
Your view is just how you envision the night elves. 99% of the people who come here dissagree with your fantasy.

I'm afraid I cannot excuse this time. Your analysis of 99% of people is a gross exaggeration, I only see nods from fellow hordies. Also your take on what you call "my fantasy" is also disagreeable, my impression of the night elves comes from their lore.

And I think you should be able to distinguish between talking about the lore shows, and what we would like to see. I know I certainly am, I take a lot of effort in the opening post to point out what we observe, what is lore and then my desire of wanting more of the stated core theme and my opinion and suggestions on what could be done to show these, asking others for theirs on the issue.

But in case you forget, this work is entirely someone's fantasy they share, and if they get inconsistent about what they portray, or fans join their fantasy, they are quite free to base their opinions on it, which is what i am doing here in a place no developer is around or looks - which means I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions and fantasies for this exercise.

[Alanar]

I can only answer for myself, but Nightborne reflect night elves, it is meaningless to accuse night elves of being more like Nightbornea dn make that like iti s some wrong thing, when everything about Nightborne is Night elven except for chronomancy and developing ears that point upwards - and living without actually seeing the stars and moon.

So it isn't unsurprising to expect things you see in the nightborne to be available to the Night elves. However what I want is more than that, I want the original full flavour of the night elves out. The stars shoudl be the primary focus. currently they feel more liek Children of hte forest, it's over focused on, they need to bring out their chidlren of the stars.

I also would like to see more focus no their dark elf side, their Highborne/moonguard, cities, Moon priestess order, the high arcnae stuff.


Now, don't mistake what I say I want, from what I say they are. A common mistake some people here love making. Let language inform of the context intended, I think I make it pretty clear when I am stating fact, and when I am asking for something /giving my opinion/desires.

But if i make an opinion post, what's the point coming on and telling me or others that this is what "they want"? I mean duh yes. I literally ask people to also share what they want, but you come and tell them when they answer that this is what they want - it's hardly constructive - that's what I want to hear here. There is another topic for debating the validity of the other aspects of the night elves. if you want to question or challenge that the night elves shouldn't be focused ont he stars.. by all means go ahead.

I see no just cause for that, the topic is based onw who the night elves are, they are children of the stars, and wanting the race to reflect the name which is what names do you know..they define things, it's pointless if race doesn't reflect the meaning - this is why other groups change name, the High elves as Quel'dorei call their race quel'dorei, it's a race now, not a caste, amongst the night elves it's a caste, always has been, and continues to be Therefore Highborne are different from High elves - and that's not just in name, it's clear to see. Yet kaldorei remains the name.

This gives you an insight to the race. If you plug into druidism as I have, you find out that it's not about the night elf people, it's about nature and the world. it has a large night elf following because the night elves couldn't use arcane, and there's nothing else much for them to do/help except if they turn to helping out with nature. Unless they're female, where the Order of Elune is open up to them but only to a point, as a male you can never become Sister of Elune, the highest echelon of the order.

characterising the race as druids is a mistake, and i have noticed the earlier implementations of night elves always made this distinction subtly, I know players did not notice this, which is why they wondered why druids weren't involved in the cata horde attacks, and bitched about Malfurion not helping the night elves. They didn't understand.

But i can't blame them fully, the devs never decrypted the night elves for them, and imo many of the new devs don't understand either, and are actually just following the mis0interpreation leading to this mess.

If they came out and announced the night elves were changing their name to Children of the forest - i would no longer insist on holding true to the earlier concept. I would call for the original night elf to return, or for it to live on in addition. But the way I see it, the better option is to instead introduce a forest elf race, like the Night elf worgen, use that as the Worgen allied race, but heavily tied to nature, and call them children of the forest, so the night elf continues to be it's original which they make more of an effort to show.



We know the night elf was never created to just be a wood elf, so children of the stars is not levied as. As I mentioned in the other post:



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I'm afraid I cannot excuse this time. Your analysis of 99% of people is a gross exaggeration, I only see nods from fellow hordies. Also your take on what you call "my fantasy" is also disagreeable, my impression of the night elves comes from their lore.

And I think you should be able to distinguish between talking about the lore shows, and what we would like to see. I know I certainly am, I take a lot of effort in the opening post to point out what we observe, what is lore and then my desire of wanting more of the stated core theme and my opinion and suggestions on what could be done to show these, asking others for theirs on the issue.

But in case you forget, this work is entirely someone's fantasy they share, and if they get inconsistent about what they portray, or fans join their fantasy, they are quite free to base their opinions on it, which is what i am doing here in a place no developer is around or looks - which means I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions and fantasies for this exercise.

Its mace and you, who else? No one likes your fantasy.
And 99% here want night elves to be night elves and nightborne to be nightborne.
Night elves have their own thing, just give it a damn rest. Once again we dont need 5 differnt threads for you to convince people. Who are you to do that? So please listen for once.. my man.

Once again you are not listening to others, and not reponding to concerns. Its your view only.. for that reason alone there is no debate. Just your view.

Yellow hordies, okey dude lol.

Bye ravenmoon welcome on ignore.

Edit; idk why you are linking me with anigma, but you seem confused alot, dont look weird when he will ignore you as well if we follow your logic. People already suspect you and mace of having multiple accounts to respond on your own threads.. I mean if I were you I would chill down.

[Sangris]

The real question here is: what do you want? It can't possibly be kaldorei who exemplify traditional pre-sundering society with their focus on stars and magic, because they already exist and are already playable.

To make the night elves more like them would be to devalue their character and pointlessly make what are supposed to now be two different playable race themes the same.

I commend you for your efforts, but they won't accept this answer because they don't want to play on team red. That's the whole issue behind it.

[ravenmoon]

Its mace and you, who else? No one likes your fantasy.
And 99% here want night elves to be night elves and nightborne to be nightborne.
Night elves have their own thing, just give it a damn rest. Once again we dont need 5 differnt threads for you to convince people. Who are you to do that? So please listen for once.. my man.

Once again you are not listening to others, and not reponding to concerns. Its your view only.. for that reason alone there is no debate. Just your view.

Yellow hordies, okey dude lol.

Bye ravenmoon welcome on ignore.

Edit; idk why you are linking me with anigma, but you seem confused alot, dont look weird when he will ignore you as well if we follow your logic. People already suspect you and mace of having multiple accounts to respond on your own threads.. I mean if I were you I would chill down.

I'm not confused, you are saying the same things here, but I get it, it's my opinion etc blah blah, you still haven't answered constructively to the topic at hand here Alanar. This was not a debate on whether a person should give their opinions or whether the opinions are a valid one, although even discussing that would be better than just slamming me here.

but I can take it, i have a level 120 478 ilvl druid and dh tank, I'm use to taking punishment and can dish out, still, I wanted to talk about bring out the star culture of the kaldorei, not whether what I wrote is my opinion or not.

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I commend you for your efforts, but they won't accept this answer because they don't want to play on team red. That's the whole issue behind it.

Do you think we should be forced to play team red to experience the star culture of the children of the stars? I think that's unrealistic. It's one thing to agree or say that the Nightborne should have that in them too, but it's another thing to say that only the Nightborne should. You might as well rename the Nightborne the children of the stars i.e. kaldorei but don't stop there (cos we know they're 90% there already), you'd then have to rename the night elves/kaldorei to children of the forests.

Nightborne is not a replacement for the kaldorei fantasy parts it represents, or it shouldn't be, it's fine as an addition for the horde to experience some aspects of the kaldorei, but it's lazy imo to just lump it all on the horde side and not develop the kaldorei as the name implies and as originally outset.

Before the Nightborne went horde, Legion I would saw was a very good portrayal of the full scope of the night elves because it had everything related to them, it had druids, nature, it hard Highborne/Moonguard arcane legacy, it had forests and a pristine night elven city, it had sub-race Nightborne, it had demon hunter demonic elves, it had warrior maiden females in largely the wardens but sometimes sentinels too.


That's how it should be going forward, each of these further developed, and doing so would mean different things, but the biggest missing component is the really making the children of the stars mean something significant enough both visually and experientially to warrant the name. And no, it shouldn't be super cryptic. As my opening post outlines, there is evidence of this in the night elves, throughout the lore and in game, it should be more pronounced because currently they feel more like the Children of the Forests.

This is nothing to do about team red or anything like that, - never you mind my comments to Alanar and Enigmaddict.

[Mrbleedinggums]

How do you bring out the stars in the Kaldorei? Easy, just light a big enough bonfire.

Too soon?

[Sangris]

Do you think we should be forced to play team red to experience the star culture of the children of the stars? I think that's unrealistic. It's one thing to agree or say that the Nightborne should have that in them too, but it's another thing to say that only the Nightborne should. You might as well rename the Nightborne the children of the stars i.e. kaldorei but don't stop there (cos we know they're 90% there already), you'd then have to rename the night elves/kaldorei to children of the forests.

Nightborne is not a replacement for the kaldorei fantasy parts it represents, or it shouldn't be, it's fine as an addition for the horde to experience some aspects of the kaldorei, but it's lazy imo to just lump it all on the horde side and not develop the kaldorei as the name implies and as originally outset.

Before the Nightborne went horde, Legion I would saw was a very good portrayal of the full scope of the night elves because it had everything related to them, it had druids, nature, it hard Highborne/Moonguard arcane legacy, it had forests and a pristine night elven city, it had sub-race Nightborne, it had demon hunter demonic elves, it had warrior maiden females in largely the wardens but sometimes sentinels too.


That's how it should be going forward, each of these further developed, and doing so would mean different things, but the biggest missing component is the really making the children of the stars mean something significant enough both visually and experientially to warrant the name. And no, it shouldn't be super cryptic. As my opening post outlines, there is evidence of this in the night elves, throughout the lore and in game, it should be more pronounced because currently they feel more like the Children of the Forests.

This is nothing to do about team red or anything like that, - never you mind my comments to Alanar and Enigmaddict.

Look, I agree with you that the Nightborne were not needed on the Horde side, as their niche, aside from the stars aspect, has already been well represented by the Blood Elves. In fact, if I had my way, Nightborne would have gone to the Alliance and Horde would have gotten San'layn instead.

But you can't tell me that the faction isn't an issue for you. I remember full well when Void Elves were announced that you changed your avatar to a Void Elf and how glad you were that you could finally play a Thalassian elf on the Alliance.
And since the parts of the Night Elves you want most is exactly what's represented in the Nightborne, you could literally play the kind of Elf that you want right now. It's just not on the faction that you want. I also full well remember that you once said (far before Nightborne were being announced) you'd switch to Horde in a heartbeat if they had playable Nightborne. Well, here we are, and they're playable.

[ravenmoon]

Look, I agree with you that the Nightborne were not needed on the Horde side, as their niche, aside from the stars aspect, has already been well represented by the Blood Elves. In fact, if I had my way, Nightborne would have gone to the Alliance and Horde would have gotten San'layn instead.

But you can't tell me that the faction isn't an issue for you. I remember full well when Void Elves were announced that you changed your avatar to a Void Elf and how glad you were that you could finally play a Thalassian elf on the Alliance.
And since the parts of the Night Elves you want most is exactly what's represented in the Nightborne, you could literally play the kind of Elf that you want right now. It's just not on the faction that you want. I also full well remember that you once said (far before Nightborne were being announced) you'd switch to Horde in a heartbeat if they had playable Nightborne. Well, here we are, and they're playable.

I did switch, then Teldrassil happened, and I still cant fully reconcile with the Nightborne going horde, every angle I look at it feels inferior to neutral or going with the night elves, and the only scenario it works for me is if the Nightborne end up working closely with the night elves or continue in their own identity as a kaldorei race themselves not dependent or tied to the hip of the blood elves they can be great friends but not sidekicks.

My horde issue is there is little I find attractive character wise about all the races, character and attitude in both cata and WoT, major turn offs. I was fine with the Nightborne, but when Thalyssra and the rest of the Nightborne dont challenge or rebel against Sylvanas after Teldrassil, (not even kaldorei roots loving Valtrois - they say and do nothing going a long like impotent sidekicks rather tha 10k year old ancients whove ruled the world and just defeated for good the menacing demons) this is when my Nightborne toons drop to 4th place from 2nd and even a brief top spot.

I expected way more from them, , defying the warchief without betraying the blood elves, helping night elves anyway, and being a strong voice for what's right and unflinching at the warchief disagreement, afterall, Suramar is or should be very powerful.

I'd have Thalyssra have a power scuffle even, one that they triumph confidently over their accusers, but Thalyssra doesn't aim to destroy or rule the horde, regretting her decision to join based on the horde's Teldrassil actions, she decides leaving is pointless and it's better to fix from the inside and teach these younglings some perspective, this is why she isnt afraid to work with night elves despite being on the horde, she doesnt quite view the factions the same way, not even like the kaldorei kin who've been swept up on it, she and the Nightborne behave like imperial kaldorei Kalimdor, but if it were spearheaded by a noble leader..and this leads to interesting things.


However I found nothing in the BFA story to make me proud of or want to be in the horde. I have blood elf toons, I have about 4 belf toons, 4 nelf toons, 2 nightborne and 2 void elf.

I probably like the void elves the most at the moment and that's a combination of portrayal etc, but I think it's more because they are less messed up - the night elves continue to draw my attention the most on boards either because they are misunderstood by a lot of forum folk here or the crappy way blizz keeps showing them, they have so much more potential and good stuff in their lore, but they choose some of the weakest and most boring sides to keep harping on (well it wasnt boring at first, but after dominating for15 years it definitely is.)

In other words, my problem with them Nightborne is how they've been developed so far, they feel both wasted and pointless, if they were bringing a kaldorei identity to the horde, it would have helped, incl Elunism and druidsm, but particularly pre sundering kaldorei and kaldorei star culture from an arcane centre, it would have helped, but it's like a new race now, only warpcasting and chronomancy, is shown usefully, and for the rest they kinda get in the way of the blood elves and it feels they are becoming blood elves with a different skeleton, it annoys me, feels wasted.

So I think well the night elves have a better set up for showing the fullness of the race, and I realise that an allied race is not meant to be a full race, altho they could make the nightborne as such, the depth to carry that is in the kaldorei pre sundering civilisation they represent, this is what interests me the most. But without it, acting as blood elves or hordies, it has little interest to me, just like I hate the night elves being all alliance focused or human potential rubbish.

[Powerogue]

currently they feel more liek Children of hte forest, it's over focused on, they need to bring out their chidlren of the stars.

Because that's what they are now. Would it finally satisfy you if they just did the now all too commonplace theme of renaming themselves? Tree'dorei?