"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Soluna]

Again, nothing is vital. Raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities in mind. IF you are good, you will be able to handle it. I thought about it longer than you.

So let me reverse question. Now guilds are doing mythic nzoth with 10 immunity classes, you happen to play the one that doesn't have immunity. Does that mean they would bench you even if you perform top notch and always do mechanics properly? No, and if they do, they are crippling their progress to get one guy that has immunity but is measurably worse than you.

No you thought shit longer than me mate. The amount of bs in your post is straight up staggering. It doesn't matter if raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities, everyone who raids mythic (with a few exceptions), needs the best setup possible. Why?

Because top 100-200 raiders will strive to do the best they can stay competitive and get as early rankings as possible. It's not about the boss being impossible, it's about the fight becoming infinitely easier sometimes with the right setup. Did we need 4 warlocks on G'huun mythic? No we didn't when we killed him with my guild, did it make it infinitely easier with 4 portals instead of 3? Even though our 4rth warlock was shit dps wise? Damn right it did. Did it earn him a spot over our ret paladin who had nothing to offer for the fight? Absolutely.

If you fail to understand this, you are a small boy, who is trying to tell everyone to git gud, but lacks the mental capacity to understand how the damn community works. And for guilds who barely get cutting edge, the optimal classes/builds/etc, are a way to help them achieve eventually the kills. No sane man will try to progress cutting edge and not go for optimal build. I think it's you who needs to git gud because it seems like you've never even played the damn game.

Also your 'reverse question' is subject to the same flaw - If you have 21 raiders, 10 of which are key members (like 4 healers, 2 tanks, and 4 dps who are super good), and then you have ELEVEN more raiders, who all play immunity classes aside from that one enhancement shaman who is an extremely good player (always parses 90-95+ on mythic), is always there, consistent with mechanics, etc, and the 10 ppl who play immunity classes are all extremely good also, but play classes that are far stronger (fire mages, bm hunters) and can do much more dmg, while soaking with an immunity. What do you do then? Do you bring the shaman? Why? The immunities will make the fight a lot easier. The shaman is losing out on progression.

In shadowlands, this will happen with covenant abilities sometimes (like the venthyr teleport), and why the fuck something that should be an aesthetic choice for the most part, and something that was made to be fun, has to put you in such a spot? If you fail to understand all this, we are done discussing I think.

[Soon-TM]

Well the person i was responding to said becuase someone somewhere was using an ability in a different color breaks his immersion.

And i don't see how that should be? Immersion in WoW mostly comes from singel player content.
The moment people are seeing other people on a normal realm ther will be people on giant ass demons riding around clipping into each other hell hounds litteral undead horses flying monstrosities and whatnot. The covenant immersion comes from what it gives to you personally. Maybe some instanced content you run for the first time. If you choose to keep the ability fine. But what does it change for your immersion if i choose, say, Kyrian covenant, with the ability from nightfey? Nothing. Because we only communicate in content where the is no immersion.
If you want it to be there to you would have to join a RP server.

Man, the MUH IMMURZION crowd is in for a rough ride with SL. Kyrian DKs? Necrolord pallies? Venthyr holy priests? I can't wait lmao.

[Sunslayer]

You mean the majority of the playerbase? Why keep them happy.

I doubt that. I'd say the majority raid normal. If raided normal you'd see it's really close to lfr. Most people are in guilds.and if you're in a guild you can do normal easily. I'd hope that "majority" of human beings would have more competitive nature than settle for lfr as their WoW Everest.

[kaminaris]

It is, though. They've confirmed that tuning - TUNING, not catering - at high levels is based around maximized efficiency.

It is, they didn't touch echoing void until first world race has been done.

If you can do more, you are underperforming. Even if you're great.

Gear is your hard limit, if you are underperforming considering your gear then you are bad, as simple as that.

Trusting anything Blizzard does in terms of their overall design philosophy insofar as trusting their ability to balance these things correctly is perhaps the biggest "Sure, Jan..." imaginable.

And why you wouldn't? Balancing is different issue, dont try to argument your designing fights with issues with balance lol.

Not directed at me, but still a really silly question. What about immunity classes that perform equally well? Well then you're just shit out of luck, aren't you? You're operating under the assumption that having these advantages means some kind of disadvantage in play

Thing is, you don't have equally skilled players in real environment except maybe top 50 guilds.

- - - Updated - - -

No you thought shit longer than me mate. The amount of bs in your post is straight up staggering. It doesn't matter if raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities, everyone who raids mythic (with a few exceptions), needs the best setup possible. Why? .

No. This is bullshit. You need not best setup (which is like irrelevant for most bosses). You need steady players that also can perform mechanics perfectly, learn quickly and do good dps. Setup is maybe 4th variable in importance. You simply have no clue.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, if you try to think about it for more than a minute you will realize two facts:
1) Balance does not really matter for top 1% (or top 0.1%). Why? Because on one hand they will always play what's best no matter how time-consuming it is. And on the other hand they have skill to compensate for balance deficiencies.
2) Balance matters for much wider "middle-of-the-pack" audience. Because on one hand they don't have time or patience for time-consuming activities. And on the other hand they don't have the skill to compensate for playing non-optimal setups.

It's not some kind of "elitist" or "try-hard" attitude, it's normal human behavior. If you can't jump over the wall you don't go to athletics trainer, you bring ladder. If riding a taxi or public transport costs the same you chose taxi. If you need power socket fixed you get electrician not a plumber.

If you think even more than a minute you will realize that:

1) And this is why you are wrong, method said they lost CoS because they forced their players to play with alts. Just to have "best setup".
2) Balance does not matter for medium audience because by the time they get to meaningful bosses, they already vastly overgear those bosses.

Its not normal human behavior, it's elitists wannabee attitude because there are tons of players, playing with suboptimal specs that killed mythic nzoth faster than you and me while playing the same or even lower amount of time.

[Vakir]

It is, they didn't touch echoing void until first world race has been done.

By then, they'd already had those same guilds bust out hundreds of millions of gold, with some possibly feeling compelled to pay via tokens. You're telling me Blizzard didn't know how much of a huge impact these would have when they put out the system, despite all the warnings? Hell no. They knew. It financially benefited them, not to mention the scumming of taking as long as they did to implement Echoes. These QOL changes are things that should've been in since the inception. Same with Residuum, Wakening Essence, etc.

Gear is your hard limit, if you are underperforming considering your gear then you are bad, as simple as that.

I'm talking about class issues. Equally geared individuals of different classes or specializations can still "underperform" by not playing the best option. That is what we're talking about here. Having 52 major abilities like that is effectively adding significant sub-classes. Or I guess sub-talents if you prefer.

And why you wouldn't? Balancing is different issue, dont try to argument your designing fights with issues with balance lol.

It's reality of how the abilities are going to function. Let's keep it to the signature abilities for simplicity's sake. For something like Fleshcraft to matter as much as the two mobility options, they need to design a fight in mind with damage being severe enough to require having an extra shield. For something like Phial of Serenity, you'd need debuffs that are severe enough where a clear of it via your potion once an encounter would be enough of a benefit than just wait through a dispel cooldown.

But for the encounters to work, that would mean everyone would need to take those two. Other than that, they're irrelevant by comparison on Fleshcraft's end, because generally make-or-break damage like that is either avoidable or requires something like an immunity. Same with debuffs that are able to be cleared. If it's variable that ~25% of the player base will have these abilities, they can't design fights to have them or else they wouldn't work.

Meanwhile, Door of Shadows and Soulshape need not be required, but they are always good.

This is, again, ignoring problems that exist outside of top tier content that are problems for all players. You pick Primordial Wave. You can cleave a second Lava Burst, effectively, which is awesome. Then you swap to Enhancement, and it cleaves a Lightning Bolt, which is effectively not anywhere near the same impact. Deathborne? You're Arcane. Having Arcane Blast hit other targets is a huge, huuuuge boost vs. the same thing happening with Frostbolt or Fireball. But modern class design under Blizzard is that you are a Class, not a Specialization. So you're effectively extending Covenant choices to benefit certain specializations that are not equal across specs. That kinda sucks.

PvP vs. PvE is an issue. Tank vs. DPS is an issue, as only some of the Covenant abilities have functions that help with active mitigation or defense. I don't need to go on, do I?

Thing is, you don't have equally skilled players in real environment except maybe top 50 guilds.

We're talking anecdotally. On a theoretical level, if two players are effectively even at executing mechanics and are doing equal amounts of damage in terms of executing their rotation, the one with the better choice-based toolkit is more valuable. Whether that is 1% or 10%. For most guilds, sure, this won't matter - but, well, read above. There's other problems for Covenant abilities beyond that, and there's fundamental clashes against WoW's modern design.

Still waiting for the answer, BTW. Who does swapping Covenant abilities harm? What are the negatives? Are you implying that Covenant choices only matter insofar as the abilities? If so, you're taking a big shit on a system Blizzard seems to have a lot of pride in.

[kaminaris]

By then, they'd already had those same guilds bust out hundreds of millions of gold, with some possibly feeling compelled to pay via tokens. You're telling me Blizzard didn't know how much of a huge impact these would have when they put out the system, despite all the warnings? Hell no. They knew. It financially benefited them, not to mention the scumming of taking as long as they did to implement Echoes. These QOL changes are things that should've been in since the inception. Same with Residuum, Wakening Essence, etc.

Oh please stop with bullshit. Top 10 guilds have been paying real money to people who wrote addons/dbm modules for them for years, P2W! Hell even I did a service like that for gold.

I'm talking about class issues. Equally geared individuals of different classes or specializations can still "underperform" by not playing the best option. That is what we're talking about here. Having 52 major abilities like that is effectively adding significant sub-classes. Or I guess sub-talents if you prefer.

Again, this is not a problem for vast majority. If someone wants to go full "optimal" route, let them. Also let others pick whatever they like. Their skill will be a problem way before gear or choices will be.

It's reality of how the abilities are going to function.

Dude, face reality, if blizzard added another talent row people would still argue and shit on it because "only one is best" so there is no "choice". It's a problem with community, not a blizzard, even if there would be like 0.5% difference between those.

And only permanent solution to shutting up community is rotation of which covenant is best each week while making it hard to swap.

We're talking anecdotally. On a theoretical level, if two players are effectively even at executing mechanics and are doing equal amounts of damage in terms of executing their rotation,

Which just doesn't happen. And even if, there is a difference between player ability to perform mechanics and not die which is far more important for progress.
The only group of players that dps matters is maybe top 10 or 50 guilds.

[Vakir]

Oh please stop with bullshit. Top 10 guilds have been paying real money to people who wrote addons/dbm modules for them for years, P2W! Hell even I did a service like that for gold.

So do you think Blizzard deliberately sat on Wakening Essences, Echoes, Residuum, etc. until they needed a MAU/subscription shot in the arm, or do you think they're incompetent? Those are the only real options.

Again, this is not a problem for vast majority. If someone wants to go full "optimal" route, let them. Also let others pick whatever they like. Their skill will be a problem way before gear or choices will be.

What about people who don't want to be punished in terms of story, aesthetic, and other systems of other Covenants in terms of going optimal? Should high end players be forced to wear clownsuit mogs now, since it reflects old school? MUH PLAYER CHOICE

Dude, face reality, if blizzard added another talent row people would still argue and shit on it because "only one is best" so there is no "choice". It's a problem with community, not a blizzard, even if there would be like 0.5% difference between those.

Sure, people would argue on it. But at least then their choice wouldn't be hardlocked between spec and activity. The conversation wouldn't be arbitrarily limited by Blizzard trying to squeeze more of your time. That's what you're not seeing here. It isn't about that top 50 guild, it's also about Covenant choices not working with the present way that Blizzard designs classes, which is for them to have different specializations switched at any time and PvP abilities/talents that are fluid with being able to swap at any time. Covenant abilities don't mesh with this flexibility if they are hard-locked.

Which just doesn't happen. And even if, there is a difference between player ability to perform mechanics and not die which is far more important for progress.
The only group of players that dps matters is maybe top 10 or 50 guilds.

Lol? Are you joking? Of course that happens. People's performances don't exist in this weird vacuum where they are either 100% perfect in how they parse or are complete dogshit. Great players can also play poorly one night. Horrible players can do great one night but be a consistent fuck-up. There are players that can execute mechanics and not die of all stripes, but certain mechanics still favor certain classes or specializations.

Aaaaand one more time: "Who does swapping Covenant abilities harm? What are the negatives? Are you implying that Covenant choices only matter insofar as the abilities? If so, you're taking a big shit on a system Blizzard seems to have a lot of pride in."

You've ignored the questions three times now!

[kaminaris]

So do you think Blizzard deliberately sat on Wakening Essences, Echoes, Residuum, etc. until they needed a MAU/subscription shot in the arm, or do you think they're incompetent? Those are the only real options.

Only in your mind, reality is simple, once time goes on, requirements are relaxing. It does nothing to help maus. It just makes it easier for already playing people for their alts.

What about people who don't want to be punished in terms of story, aesthetic, and other systems of other Covenants in terms of going optimal? Should high end players be forced to wear clownsuit mogs now, since it reflects old school? MUH PLAYER CHOICE

What about people who are blind and cant raid on mythic level? Same type of argument. If you want to be high end, you gotta grind and have a skill. Thats it. It's the path you have chosen. Game shouldn't be designed around those people and i hope some day blizzard will grow a balls and tell those vocal minorities to fuck off.
I am kind in minority too and still would be glad.

Sure, people would argue on it. But at least then their choice wouldn't be hardlocked between spec and activity. The conversation wouldn't be arbitrarily limited by Blizzard trying to squeeze more of your time. That's what you're not seeing here. It isn't about that top 50 guild, it's also about Covenant choices not working with the present way that Blizzard designs classes, which is for them to have different specializations switched at any time and PvP abilities/talents that are fluid with being able to swap at any time. Covenant abilities don't mesh with this flexibility if they are hard-locked.

Please stop with this bullshit about arbitrarily squeezing more of my time because it's the dumbest argument you can present. Most people just leave once they don't like something. RPG isn't suppose to be freely swappable because it's not MOBA. It isn't suppose to be instanced based lobby simulator either. Choices are suppose to matter.

Lol? Are you joking? Of course that happens. People's performances don't exist in this weird vacuum where they are either 100% perfect in how they parse or are complete dogshit. Great players can also play poorly one night. Horrible players can do great one night but be a consistent fuck-up. There are players that can execute mechanics and not die of all stripes, but certain mechanics still favor certain classes or specializations.

So now you are complaining about classes and specs? Maybe lets make class and spec swappable at barber for everyone so they can play fire mage within a minute? Maybe your gear should convert while we are at it?

Aaaaand one more time: "Who does swapping Covenant abilities harm? What are the negatives? Are you implying that Covenant choices only matter insofar as the abilities? If so, you're taking a big shit on a system Blizzard seems to have a lot of pride in."

You've ignored the questions three times now!

IT FUCKING MAKES COVENANTS POINTLESS. Freely swappable covenants = might as well do it as another talent row.

And just so you know, it will definitely affect my guild and our rooster and squad for bosses as well. And I am still against making it swappable.

[Krakan]

Only in your mind, reality is simple, once time goes on, requirements are relaxing. It does nothing to help maus. It just makes it easier for already playing people for their alts.



What about people who are blind and cant raid on mythic level? Same type of argument. If you want to be high end, you gotta grind and have a skill. Thats it. It's the path you have chosen. Game shouldn't be designed around those people and i hope some day blizzard will grow a balls and tell those vocal minorities to fuck off.
I am kind in minority too and still would be glad.




Please stop with this bullshit about arbitrarily squeezing more of my time because it's the dumbest argument you can present. Most people just leave once they don't like something. RPG isn't suppose to be freely swappable because it's not MOBA. It isn't suppose to be instanced based lobby simulator either. Choices are suppose to matter.



So now you are complaining about classes and specs? Maybe lets make class and spec swappable at barber for everyone so they can play fire mage within a minute? Maybe your gear should convert while we are at it?



IT FUCKING MAKES COVENANTS POINTLESS. Freely swappable covenants = might as well do it as another talent row.

And just so you know, it will definitely affect my guild and our rooster and squad for bosses as well. And I am still against making it swappable.

All covenants are is a talent row. I don't really get how you perceive them as something more. The transmog doesn't make this a new concept.

[FlubberPuddy]

All covenants are is a talent row. I don't really get how you perceive them as something more. The transmog doesn't make this a new concept.

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

Can you tell me of a talent that changes its described function because of items that you equip?

[Vakir]

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

I know. I mean, if they didn't work like choosing a class, that would make Blizzard dishonest at worst and incompetent at best, right? We all know they'd never do that. /s

The fact that they said they'll allow them to be swapped ability-wise as a "last resort" is just conceding the reality eventually.

Only in your mind, reality is simple, once time goes on, requirements are relaxing. It does nothing to help maus. It just makes it easier for already playing people for their alts.

Man, imagine simping and acting as personal defense squad to a billion dollar corporation for free.

The game would be better for those systems being in sooner.

What about people who are blind and cant raid on mythic level? Same type of argument. If you want to be high end, you gotta grind and have a skill. Thats it. It's the path you have chosen. Game shouldn't be designed around those people and i hope some day blizzard will grow a balls and tell those vocal minorities to fuck off.
I am kind in minority too and still would be glad.

Those vocal minorities are vocal because they're the only ones affected and are deep enough into the systems for it to matter.

As far as you, we'll get to you.

Please stop with this bullshit about arbitrarily squeezing more of my time because it's the dumbest argument you can present. Most people just leave once they don't like something. RPG isn't suppose to be freely swappable because it's not MOBA. It isn't suppose to be instanced based lobby simulator either. Choices are suppose to matter.

If it isn't, the entire game should reflect it. If Blizzard wants to make specs and talents still swappable, systems should have parity with that.

So now you are complaining about classes and specs? Maybe lets make class and spec swappable at barber for everyone so they can play fire mage within a minute? Maybe your gear should convert while we are at it?

You can roll alts. The only way to "freely" swap a Covenant is to make 4 versions of the same class. The issue isn't that there's a lack of balance between classes and specs - there always has been. The issue is that it relatively enforces the same class to have vastly different choices.

IT FUCKING MAKES COVENANTS POINTLESS. Freely swappable covenants = might as well do it as another talent row.

Covenants are worthless if they don't directly make for player power? So those stories are pointless? The other activities like the soul gardens and vampire galas are pointless? Characters you meet that are exclusive and have unique interactions, also pointless?

Boy, sounds like you really hate RPGs.

And just so you know, it will definitely affect my guild and our rooster and squad for bosses as well. And I am still against making it swappable.

Yeah, uh, regarding your "rooster." I took a quick look.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...gion/kaminaris

Looks like you're running with a spec that is one of the best and most brain-dead in the game. You're also using all the best talents for that spec. You're using the most optimal Corruptions for your spec and you're also juuuust below the 40 threshold, i.e. the recommended break point for many specs.

But it's OK, you're probably in the top 10-50 in terms of guilds, right? We've established per your argument that you feel that's the only place where that kind of optimization matters.

https://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu...ion/Link+Curve

...wait, no. Your guild is in the 600s. OK, so maybe it's pure coincidence that you're Beast Mastery running the best and most optimized talents, corruptions, gems, most trinkets, etc. Even though that's a 1 in god knows how many shot, you're doing what you want and can get away with it, right? Afterall, maybe that hyper-simple spec is just how you want to play and it's a misunderstanding.

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/maxdps-hunter

...mmm, nope. You're playing Marksmanship here. Maybe you liked how it played then. ...what was the best spec in Hellfire Citadel? Oh, it was Marksmanship.

So if only pure optimization matters in the top 10-50 guilds, surely you wouldn't be saying absolute horseshit otherwise. I mean, that would be boldly hypocritical, wouldn't it?

It's fine, though. I'm sure with hyper-specific optimization of a character you've likely been playing first, given Bestdps Hunter was the first optimization mod you made, you'll be giving pitch-perfect performances every time, since if you're not performing up to par regardless of optimized choices, you need to "git gud," right?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...gion/kaminaris

...oh. Oh, I guess not.

So then we come to the intersection of all of this which is: you're so, so brave to speak up in support of "making choices matter," while picking the best choices yourself regardless in a guild you claim where it wouldn't matter...so I wonder what Covenant you're going to "choose?"

I'm thinking "the best one."

[OFiveNine]

tbh one thing i'd like to see is evidence that the best option has only ever been 0.5% better than the other options in the history of wow

[Vakir]

tbh one thing i'd like to see is evidence that the best option has only ever been 0.5% better than the other options in the history of wow

It just takes looking at sims and logs to see it isn't, lolol. The people that make this argument aren't dumb, they know it's false - they just don't care.

It's true for like, output racials, but as far as utility or CC breaks, all it takes is a cursory look at PvP stats to see a flood of orcs and humans. With a side order of Blood Elves, who remain great in M+.

[kaminaris]

I know. I mean, if they didn't work like choosing a class, that would make Blizzard dishonest at worst and incompetent at best, right? We all know they'd never do that. /s

The fact that they said they'll allow them to be swapped ability-wise as a "last resort" is just conceding the reality eventually.

That is fine as long as it happens at later because its borrowed power anyways. It's not permanent.

Man, imagine simping and acting as personal defense squad to a billion dollar corporation for free.

The game would be better for those systems being in sooner.

Imagine hating company just because it's what cool kids do right?

Those vocal minorities are vocal because they're the only ones affected and are deep enough into the systems for it to matter.

As far as you, we'll get to you.

Not really. Vocal minorities are just that, minorities. A small slice of playerbase that is vocal on forums.

If it isn't, the entire game should reflect it. If Blizzard wants to make specs and talents still swappable, systems should have parity with that.

No, it should not.

You can roll alts. The only way to "freely" swap a Covenant is to make 4 versions of the same class. The issue isn't that there's a lack of balance between classes and specs - there always has been. The issue is that it relatively enforces the same class to have vastly different choices.

Good thing then. You shouldn't be doing that. If you want to have char for every occasion, you do 4 versions and have fun with that.

Covenants are worthless if they don't directly make for player power? So those stories are pointless? The other activities like the soul gardens and vampire galas are pointless? Characters you meet that are exclusive and have unique interactions, also pointless?

Boy, sounds like you really hate RPGs.

Dude, covenants that don't affect players power are called FACTIONS. So yes, they would be pointless. And it's you who who hate RPGs.

Snip some bullshit

You know nothing son:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...one=8&new=true

Im already past that phase of chasing logs. And this was actually my former main that i only recently got back to, like a month or so, previously played demo lock.

Of course I will pick what is theoretically the best and STILL support blizzard in fucking my particular part of playerbase in ass (like top 200-2000). Because most of elitist wannabees are here. People who play mediocre and think they are in same situation as top 10 guilds so they require to have best raid composition and every 0.1% of dps matter otherwise they won't kill bosses. Which often ends up with mediocre players being taken just because of their classes/specs while better ones sit on bench. And that often leads to guild disbanding, seen that way too many times.

[Vakir]

That is fine as long as it happens at later because its borrowed power anyways. It's not permanent.

"This system isn't permanent, so it should get carte blanche to suck even harder until Daddy Blizzard decides it's OK." Good philosophy. Why not cut out the middle man on this one and prevent everyone and their mom spamming red abilities for a few months?

Imagine hating company just because it's what cool kids do right?

Corporations are not your friend. They are literally beholden to shareholders. The previous Blizzard gave a little bit more of a shit, but even they were interested in mainly profits. This entire system since roughly Legion has been an exercise in the frog in the pot - you turn up the heat and you don't realize you're getting boiled. Progressively systems have taken more and more away while asking for further and further time investment. Base class design is getting better in SL after a backlash, but there's still arbitrary restrictions being placed for the sake of keeping you hooked longer, not to create diversity of choice. Because as we've established, the people who are affected will all pick the same thing, and the people who aren't affected will not care.

Not really. Vocal minorities are just that, minorities. A small slice of playerbase that is vocal on forums.

How big is this minority? Originally, the idea was "it'll only affect the top 10-50." Then we looked at your stats with all kinds of excuses you threw out, which don't reflect these expectations, since now it apparently affects into the 600s. This is including the director of the damn game saying that it's a legitimate concern, by the way. So we're operating under the assumption that it's a minority without knowing how many people are affected within that minority. We're discounting legitimate criticism that the developers acknowledge while also saying it's a non-issue...while exclusively ignoring where it has been an issue for plenty of people that are not in the top 50.

Seems legit to me. /s

No, it should not.

Care to elaborate? If certain abilities suck for certain specs, why allow the changing of those specs in the first place? Why allow for certain talents to be changed when certain talents will inevitably have better synergy with certain Covenant abilities? Sounds a lot to me like the whole package is inherently flawed and people are willing to take anything they can get their grubby paws on under the guise of it being exciting to "choose," when it is a non-choice to anyone using their brain. Why even allow PvP on non-PvP premades if certain Covenant abilities suck in PvP? It just means I won't PvP on a character that's not specifically tailored to be one.

Again, with your horrible defense and with your logic of being OK with this, they'd have gotten away with hiding class abilities behind Aldors and Scryers back in TBC. And apparently you'd eat it right up. "Ooh, ooh, do I pick Fel Armor, or Seed of Corruption? HAVING SHIT TAKEN FROM ME IS EXCITING. It's an RPG, you guys!"

Dude, covenants that don't affect players power are called FACTIONS. So yes, they would be pointless. And it's you who who hate RPGs.

Ah, yes, factions. What were factions like again? Oh, right. They had an exclusive class each. Then they scrapped that because having that kind of dichotomy meant they couldn't design paladins and shamans to the fullest extent of how they wanted, heavily limiting them (e.g. Bloodlust was deliberately not added until Shaman were available to everyone). Then even after that, they had unique racial abilities for certain classes between factions, like seals, but that too did not last and had major fucking problems.

Factions were also much more strict in terms of racial benefits which took over a decade to get to the point where they are now, finally, having an almost marginal difference in DPS parsing, but with some still pretty major utility outliers. But rest assured, that did take a very, very long time, with some issues being worse later down the line (old Every Man for example).

So remind me again why I should take factions as an example of choice not mattering? And remind me again why I and anyone else should have faith in Blizzard's ability to balance these sorts of things?

The best designed RPGs don't put too much player power stock into your story-based choices. Your character based choices, certainly, although every modern CRPG now has a respec option and you can save scum anyway. But generally, if you're getting a huge power boost because you made a story based choice in your run, the developers kind of fucked up. Usually they're decoupled, and if you get a benefit in the game because of your story decision, it's usually not a game breaker.

And that's for single player games. Even moreso if it's an MMO, which doesn't follow the same rules. TOR had a wide suite of companions to use with different functions (healer, tank, whatever). Guess which one people used? The healer, whether they liked them or not. Which led to just letting every companion swap roles. What a shocker, right?

You know nothing son:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...one=8&new=true

Im already past that phase of chasing logs. And this was actually my former main that i only recently got back to, like a month or so, previously played demo lock.

Yeah, yeah. "If I'm not winning, it wasn't a competition." By your logic laid out earlier in the thread, you should still be parsing in the top percentile right this very second provided you don't suck, because mediocrity is just an excuuuuse, man. You should be totally be able to just go Marks and wear some sub-optimal gear and do fine, too. Stop making excuses! If your guild isn't a bunch of mediocre tryhards, they'll be fine with it!

Don't forget to throw some Masterful Rank 1 on all your pieces, too! You have the freedom of choice to do so now, so it's fine! Stop hating RPGs, since you clearly hate RPGs if you pick optimal decisions. Look at all that freedom of choiiiiiice!

Of course I will pick what is theoretically the best and STILL support blizzard in fucking my particular part of playerbase in ass (like top 200-2000). Because most of elitist wannabees are here. People who play mediocre and think they are in same situation as top 10 guilds so they require to have best raid composition and every 0.1% of dps matter otherwise they won't kill bosses. Which often ends up with mediocre players being taken just because of their classes/specs while better ones sit on bench. And that often leads to guild disbanding, seen that way too many times.

"I support the idea of meaningful choice while fully acknowledging that this choice is in fucking name only to anyone who wants to play to the best of their ability."

Just, absolute god damn what even. Who are you to even be on a high horse about people playing "mediocre" as if you have some kind of authority, when you yourself are playing a spec that's insanely good and absurdly easy to play with mediocre numbers? All after telling everyone that "gear is an excuse."

Can it be, maybe, that it isn't that fucking simple, and lots of people are expected to perform beyond the 0.1%?

You've rendered choice fucking meaningless when you have a best option, but a best option will always exist, and you admit that you and others are going to pick it. The answer is to not wrap player power into choice so people can choose the Covenant they like in terms of story, aesthetic, character, and flavor. This creates a more diverse spread of Covenants between players and actually reflects what people enjoy rather than what they feel compelled to play.

But you don't have to take my word for it! Just look at the damn forums and their feedback. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ovenant/553508

[kaminaris]

"This system isn't permanent, so it should get carte blanche to suck even harder until Daddy Blizzard decides it's OK." Good philosophy. Why not cut out the middle man on this one and prevent everyone and their mom spamming red abilities for a few months?

Why don't you play fortnite or LoL? Definitelly better for your tastes than wow.

Corporations are not your friend. They are literally beholden to shareholders.

Good lord, you have literally no idea how shareholders works, at least in WoW. But I can see you have just blind hatred for blizzard and justify you issues with "evil shareholders" bullshit. Look, there is tons of stuff I dont like about SL, but covenants are not one of them.

How big is this minority? Originally, the idea was "it'll only affect the top 10-50." Then we looked at your stats with all kinds of excuses you threw out

At the very least it doesn't affect top 200 and lower since i've been there. Which means its not even close to 1%.

Care to elaborate?

Dude, think for a second. Specs plays differently allowing people to customize their gameplay. Not to mention there are hybrid classes with healing/tanks specs.
I, for one, love demo spec and consider everything else ever created a garbage, compared to current demo lock. While I hate dot classes with passion so will never play affliction lock. Can I clear mythic with it? Yes I can, by the time I was at carapace, there was like 100 demo locks who killed nzoth.

So why do you not play meta class in every situation? Because you don't enjoy every class.

Ah, yes, factions. What were factions like again?

Not main factions horde/alliance. Secondary ones.

Yeah, yeah. "If I'm not winning, it wasn't a competition."

Choice is when you pick what you like, not what others tells you to pick. So stop hating RPGs and let players do whatever they fucking like.

"I support the idea of meaningful choice while fully acknowledging that this choice is in fucking name only to anyone who wants to play to the best of their ability."

More like "I support the idea of meaningful choice when it has fucking consequence and let players pick whatever the hell they want including those who want to pick best dps choice".

Just, absolute god damn what even. Who are you to even be on a high horse about people playing "mediocre" as if you have some kind of authority, when you yourself are playing a spec that's insanely good and absurdly easy to play with mediocre numbers? All after telling everyone that "gear is an excuse."

Which part of "I played demo lock this expansions" did you not understand? Also about the part of hitting 98-99% parses with other spec?
Anyone who blames gear for performance is bad. Period. It's universal and undeniable truth.

Can it be, maybe, that it isn't that fucking simple, and lots of people are expected to perform beyond the 0.1%?

And not even 0.1% of them can even reach 70%. Not to mention not even 0.00000000001% can play perfectly every pull - mechanics and avoiding shit.
Which is completely retarded people race for dps while not being able to have 95% of suvivability holding back progress.

You've rendered choice fucking meaningless when you have a best option,

And this is where you are fucking wrong because vast majority of people won't take "best option" since vast majority of playerbase don't even do mythic raids.
Nor high keys, nor high pvp.

But you don't have to take my word for it! Just look at the damn forums and their feedback. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ovenant/553508

[/QUOTE]

And vast majority of playerbase don't go to forums.

You have such small horizon like a horse with blinders.

[Krakan]

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

Can you tell me of a talent that changes its described function because of items that you equip?

Dozens with legion leggos.

[Sunslayer]

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

Can you tell me of a talent that changes its described function because of items that you equip?

Is that what Blizzard are calling Covenants now? Classes? I call em, an awful idea and I'm not alone. Covenants are going to flop , wanna know why? There are way too many moving parts for a single choice.

[Vakir]

Why don't you play fortnite or LoL? Definitelly better for your tastes than wow.

You're literally just buzzwording popular games now. None of these are reflective of any particular philosophy over Shadowlands. If anything, Blizzard trailblazed casualization that paved the way for some of those. It just happens to be less popular itself than it was a decade ago because it is no longer the modern gaming fad.

Good lord, you have literally no idea how shareholders works, at least in WoW. But I can see you have just blind hatred for blizzard and justify you issues with "evil shareholders" bullshit. Look, there is tons of stuff I dont like about SL, but covenants are not one of them.

I'm very clear on it, thank you. Due to costs being shifted away from exclusively subscription-based, player engagement is the metric by which investors are happy with the performance. It's not a coincidence that usually systems like Echoes, Residuum, etc. happen around key quarterly moments to artificially inflate monthly active users. If Blizzard can get away with a system that is designed from the outset to increase play engagement artificially, they will do it.

At the very least it doesn't affect top 200 and lower since i've been there. Which means its not even close to 1%.

Then why do you choose to play well?

Can it be that it, gasp, is actually fun to optimize sometimes, regardless of whether it's required?

Well shit, doesn't that just get in the way of actual choice?

Dude, think for a second. Specs plays differently allowing people to customize their gameplay. Not to mention there are hybrid classes with healing/tanks specs.
I, for one, love demo spec and consider everything else ever created a garbage, compared to current demo lock. While I hate dot classes with passion so will never play affliction lock. Can I clear mythic with it? Yes I can, by the time I was at carapace, there was like 100 demo locks who killed nzoth.

Ignoring the frustration that every damn spec is a builder-spender now, yes. Different flavors, some different mechanics. But that's where the wrinkle comes in that Blizzard set up Shadowlands deliberately to not reflect overspecialization, but to be "class based."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...-class-updates
"In Shadowlands, we want to return to the idea that a specialization is about powering up a specific part of a class’s kit, not narrowing down their toolset."

The entire basis for unpruning certain abilities was to create a greater sense of cohesion by class rather than to overfocus on spec, as it had been since around Mists through WoD. Then Covenant abilities immediately sodomize this notion by pretty much guaranteeing that your Covenant choice will dictate the best ability to go with your specific spec.

So why do you not play meta class in every situation? Because you don't enjoy every class.

Sure, I can buy that. I think Arms is paint-dry boring, for example. But if I play Fury, I still have the decision in place to play Fury optimally according to all aspects of it within my power. There isn't some arbitrary fucking group preventing me from getting Rampage and instead leaving me with Overpower. A bit extreme of an analogy, but the best one available. Because the Covenant ability targets "class" and not "spec," it means that you're intrinsically limiting your ability to change specs, something designed to be done on the fly, because of certain abilities that do not perform as well for them.

Soulbinds, on the other hand, as stupid as it is that Conduits are destroyed on the swap, at least give you the option of having different loadouts and customization by specialization and it's infinitely easier to balance passive benefits with some Covenant-agonstic Conduits.

So you'd still have an RPG-style choice in the form of Soulbinds, and they would still be exclusive by Covenant, but it wouldn't be as extreme. But apparently no compromise is acceptable in your eyes.

Not main factions horde/alliance. Secondary ones.

What, exactly, is wrong with secondary factions? They literally compared Covenants to the Wolvar and Oracles or the Aldor and Scryer, which were secondary factions. The difference is, something like Toy vs. much more rare green drake Mount or "these tradeskills off the vendor vs. these other tradeskills off the vendor" are completely valid choices to present in those factions. Core abilities are a disaster waiting to happen.

Choice is when you pick what you like, not what others tells you to pick. So stop hating RPGs and let players do whatever they fucking like.

So you're going to pick a suboptimal choice, right? We'll be watching!

More like "I support the idea of meaningful choice when it has fucking consequence and let players pick whatever the hell they want including those who want to pick best dps choice".

And what of people who want to perform well but fucking hate the Covenant in question?

"Well I guess don't enjoy your Covenant, or enjoy playing your class less. Gotta have some kinda fly in your soup since they said you do, LOLOL." Seems reasonable!

Which part of "I played demo lock this expansions" did you not understand? Also about the part of hitting 98-99% parses with other spec?
Anyone who blames gear for performance is bad. Period. It's universal and undeniable truth.

But you should still be able to jump onto a well-geared and optimized BM and do well. And ya didn't.

And this is where you are fucking wrong because vast majority of people won't take "best option" since vast majority of playerbase don't even do mythic raids.
Nor high keys, nor high pvp.

And vast majority of playerbase don't go to forums.

You have such small horizon like a horse with blinders.

You go with what's available in regards to feedback. Minority or not, when Blizzard puts out polls and opens threads, they're ostensibly doing so because they care about the feedback or engagement of those who choose to answer. When they give keys to certain high-end players that are critical of Covenants, they're doing so in part understanding that these same individuals have influence. They ask those same people for feedback and they even enter interviews with them directly. So regardless of whether it's a minority or not, it informs a lot of the decision making process.

Little Timmy may not give a shit, which means it doesn't affect him if they make the change. Blizzard, particularly Jeff Kaplan, had a philosophy in regards to hardcore vs. casual players: "Hardcore players are like the hole in a donut. They aren't representative of the whole thing, but they are a critical part of it." If you're making changes relative to the minority - whether that's 1% or perhaps more, which I think easily is - it's happening because the minority are the ones who give enough of a shit to bite the hand.

Little Timmy isn't going to care if Covenants are hot garbage on release, because he just got a dope-ass undead boar mount. People with good knowledge and understanding of mechanics and are hyper-critical of design philosophies are more likely to feel a certain way about the content, so they're the "vocal minority" because they're the only ones with a functioning opinion in the first place.

But the way it pans out, either way, this is going to be hilarious to watch. Either Blizzard will make a good decision to make the abilities swappable on release, which is good for everyone whether you want to admit it or not, or I'm going to be watching everyone and their mom rolling the same damn Covenant with Blizzard awkwardly backpedaling after a couple of months. All while people defending this swill either back up their changes because Daddy Blizzard said it was OK, or hem and haw about how nobody could have seen this coming.

Bet you liked Azerite Armor in Alpha, too! In any case, I'll be waiting for that Marksman kill of Mythic N'Zoth wearing all Masterful Rank 1 pieces. I'm sure your GM is fine with it.

EDIT: Whoops, it was Pardo, not Kaplan. Point stands.

[FlubberPuddy]

Dozens with legion leggos.

What Legion leggo took away a single-target focused talent and turned it into an AoE talent?