"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Noctiphobia]

Honestly, I wouldn't complain at all if they were disabled in PvP. I'd probably pick whatever looks most interesting (either lore/aesthetic or just the ability itself). 1% DPS in raids or M+ is probably not going to make any difference at my level of raiding/M+.
But since they work in PvP, I'm just going to pick the best one for PvP on every character (let's face it, for most classes there will be a clear winner, for some maybe two will be decent). For arenas I'm pretty sure even at my level (2k at most) it's going to make a big difference.
Imagine playing a Retribution Paladin in 2v2, and picking Kyrian. You get an awesome ability - Judgment, except on a 1 minute cooldown! Meanwhile, the enemy paladin just buffed their healer for +20% healing done and taken.
Or any kind of Druid picking Venthyr, with Ravenous Frenzy. Nothing is better than having a major cooldown entirely counterable with any 1.5s CC. You'll get shut down any time the enemy wants, and maybe also get a nuke to your face. Fun!

In theory, they could balance the covenant abilities in PvP specifically, so that everything is viable. In practice are they really going to make sure that all 4 covenants are viable on every spec, when they can't even make every spec viable?

[kaminaris]

You're literally just buzzwording popular games now.

Because you want lobby based game.

I'm very clear on it, thank you. Due to costs being shifted away from exclusively subscription-based, player engagement is the metric by which investors are happy with the performance.

)))))) please, take a look at what majority of blizzard shareholders are before sprouting nonsense.

Then why do you choose to play well?

Can it be that it, gasp, is actually fun to optimize sometimes, regardless of whether it's required?

Well shit, doesn't that just get in the way of actual choice?

Nope, in wow there is no optimization, your bis is already known because of lack of titanforging, and there will be zero in shadowlands, because of static gear.
I enjoy it in PoE where this aspect EXISTS. In wow it just doesn't exist, there is and always was a clear path of gearing, and way too simple talents.

Ignoring the frustration that every damn spec is a builder-spender now, yes. Different flavors, some different mechanics. But that's where the wrinkle comes in that Blizzard set up Shadowlands deliberately to not reflect overspecialization, but to be "class based."

Too late for that and nothing has really changed. Demo is still vastly different than affli.

Sure, I can buy that. I think Arms is paint-dry boring, for example. But if I play Fury, I still have the decision in place to play Fury optimally according to all aspects of it within my power.

And what is the problem? It's the same aspect with covenants. If they are at least properly balanced, you still can play optimally within the covenant you chose.
You know, maybe because you fucking hate the other covenant abilities?

What, exactly, is wrong with secondary factions?

They are not called covenants, just factions. And major "feature" of shadowlands would cease to exist.

So you're going to pick a suboptimal choice, right? We'll be watching!

You don't realize do you? I will pick probably what is best UNLESS blizzard will tell me to "fuck off" and start nerfing/buffing shit like they should.
BUT I will still have the choice on alts. Just not the one I plan to raid with.

And what of people who want to perform well but fucking hate the Covenant in question?

"Well I guess don't enjoy your Covenant, or enjoy playing your class less. Gotta have some kinda fly in your soup since they said you do, LOLOL." Seems reasonable!

Then they just have to fuck off, it's that simple. Blizzard desinged it in their own game, if they decide to put a permanent debuff on you and you only that makes you deal -50% damage, they can, and they can tell you to fuck off.

Point is, if you would like to please everyone, you would have to make all damn classes a single button spec with constant damage. Never add anything new, never let game move forward and let it die. There will be always people who dislike something.

But you should still be able to jump onto a well-geared and optimized BM and do well. And ya didn't.

Well this toon went from zero to hero in month. Pretty fast considering I was in like middle of pack on last boss while starting so late in patch.
And I actually was 5th damage on nzoth itself. That is pretty good result I would say despite people having overall higher dps.

You go with what's available in regards to feedback.

There is no feedback because blizzard doesn't ask community about anything, that is shit part of them. They should send surveys, not ask on forums where almost nobody checks and responds.

What they do instead is brining out concerns of community/forums into discussion and see if it's valid or not.
IF you have a topic like you lined, where 1/3 of people are going for pure performance, 1/3 is going for astetics and 1/3 is going to pick based on different things then
it is going to be dismissed as working as intended - because it's working as intended.

Forum only works where community is all against something - camera changes in legion, everyone was against it, blizzard finally bent down and even Ion (canon) himself responded to this topic. Otherwise, don't even think they should be acting on some small slice of small slice of playerbase.

[Krakan]

What Legion leggo took away a single-target focused talent and turned it into an AoE talent?

I mean by name?

I don't recall but there was that rogue cloak are you now shifting changing spells though to changing them in a highly specific way because you point got torpedoed?

[FlubberPuddy]

I mean by name?

I don't recall but there was that rogue cloak are you now shifting changing spells though to changing them in a highly specific way because you point got torpedoed?

You didn't torpedo my point you showed you didn't understand it. I wouldn't consider showing a lack of reading comprehension as a "win".

In Shadowlands, there's going to be Covenant specific Legendaries that change the function of your Covenant ability. Let me say it in another way:

The SL Legendary will change a single target burst covenant ability to one where it loses its ST burst but instead gains AoE capabilities.

Have we ever had that with Legion leggos? No.

Because I'm not talking about adding additional function. I'm literally saying what I said originally: taking an existing talent and changing its function to another.

[razorpax]

ok so the covenant issue is this

theres an issue taht effects a minority and the easy fix is making it unattached from the covenants themselves since the covenants are PRIMARILY a cosmetic option since if your character was next to mine theres no way you would know what covenant i was outside of the armor or other cosmetic items outside of the two abilities on cooldowns

so allowing us to swap abilities freely and making the conduits and soulbinds choice regardless of covenant effects the majority in NO way

you can argue immersion or convenience or that the player power is what gives the covenant system meaning and that semi permanent choices are a core rpg aspect and you would be wrong

your immersion and convenience are not effected in a meaningful way and if the covenants that have unique stories and cosmetics are only meaningful to you if the abilities are connected then thats a problem with the covenant system itself. Once you finalize your character and log into WoW every single choice you make is easily swappable in terms of choices you make for player power.

Covenants are not a subclass

so i say again if the changes suggested are made then the only result is that players who care about optimization can also play the covenant story that they want and the other players are not effected at all.

"blizzard always caters to the 1%"
bullshit otherwise they wouldnt have taken away m+ gear swapping

so for once just for once if you are not one of the players that actually care about optimization can you please not try and say they are wrong because its constantly a problem where any change that effects us gets praised by you even though it doesnt effect you while if theres a choice that only effects you (lfr in WoD) you want us to shut up and stay in our lane.

though to be honest this all doesnt matter because if it doesnt change now then it will in the first patch and we will get the usual "we agree with players" speech from blizzard

- - - Updated - - -

You didn't torpedo my point you showed you didn't understand it. I wouldn't consider showing a lack of reading comprehension as a "win".

In Shadowlands, there's going to be Covenant specific Legendaries that change the function of your Covenant ability. Let me say it in another way:

The SL Legendary will change a single target burst covenant ability to one where it loses its ST burst but instead gains AoE capabilities.

Have we ever had that with Legion leggos? No.

Because I'm not talking about adding additional function. I'm literally saying what I said originally: taking an existing talent and changing its function to another.

can you link those legendaries??

- - - Updated - - -

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

Can you tell me of a talent that changes its described function because of items that you equip?

they are not a class

they are 2 on use abilities and a few passives

[NineSpine]

ok so the covenant issue is this

theres an issue taht effects a minority and the easy fix is making it unattached from the covenants themselves since the covenants are PRIMARILY a cosmetic option since if your character was next to mine theres no way you would know what covenant i was outside of the armor or other cosmetic items outside of the two abilities on cooldowns

so allowing us to swap abilities freely and making the conduits and soulbinds choice regardless of covenant effects the majority in NO way

you can argue immersion or convenience or that the player power is what gives the covenant system meaning and that semi permanent choices are a core rpg aspect and you would be wrong

your immersion and convenience are not effected in a meaningful way and if the covenants that have unique stories and cosmetics are only meaningful to you if the abilities are connected then thats a problem with the covenant system itself. Once you finalize your character and log into WoW every single choice you make is easily swappable in terms of choices you make for player power.

Covenants are not a subclass

so i say again if the changes suggested are made then the only result is that players who care about optimization can also play the covenant story that they want and the other players are not effected at all.

"blizzard always caters to the 1%"
bullshit otherwise they wouldnt have taken away m+ gear swapping

so for once just for once if you are not one of the players that actually care about optimization can you please not try and say they are wrong because its constantly a problem where any change that effects us gets praised by you even though it doesnt effect you while if theres a choice that only effects you (lfr in WoD) you want us to shut up and stay in our lane.

though to be honest this all doesnt matter because if it doesnt change now then it will in the first patch and we will get the usual "we agree with players" speech from blizzard

- - - Updated - - -



can you link those legendaries??

The idea that being able to hot-swap covenants is not going to affect everyone is insane. It will make the expectation be that you max out all covenants. it will make the expectation be that you swap covenants between encounters. This is delusional.

- - - Updated - - -

they are not a class

they are 2 on use abilities and a few passives

It's a subclass. That's just a fact.

[razorpax]

The idea that being able to hot-swap covenants is not going to affect everyone is insane. It will make the expectation be that you max out all covenants. it will make the expectation be that you swap covenants between encounters. This is delusional.

not covenants

the abilities themselves

but ok lets go into the swapping entire covenants

if you are in a raid team that requires that then you are in one of two situations
1. you are in a team where optimization matters and everyone does it
2. you are in a guild where it doesnt matter

you can say no

but please tell me how me not being able to go with my preferred covenant because of the fact i want my character to not be crippled is harmful because you cant tell someone no


and it wont effect everyone because do you know how many players dont even swap specs??


you know what a subclass is??? a spec

the two abilities you ahve dont change your entire playstyle its not a fact its something blizzard said but they also said recently in an interview that masterlooter was taken because guilds and pugs took player control of loot away when Pugs didnt get master loot in legion

[klogaroth]

It's a subclass. That's just a fact.

It's not a subclass. That's just a fact.

[NineSpine]

not covenants

the abilities themselves

but ok lets go into the swapping entire covenants

if you are in a raid team that requires that then you are in one of two situations
1. you are in a team where optimization matters and everyone does it
2. you are in a guild where it doesnt matter

you can say no

but please tell me how me not being able to go with my preferred covenant because of the fact i want my character to not be crippled is harmful because you cant tell someone no

Swapping just the abilities is absurd. The abilities are part of a kit. They would all have to be reassessed and rebalanced around their potential pairings with EVERY other covenant if that was done.

You can go with whatever covenant you want. The fact that you have developed some kind of obsessive-compulsive derangement where you think minor degrees of being sub-optimal in some situation is being "CRIPPLED" is a YOU problem and I am not interested in a game developed in accordance with that kind of delusional thinking, largely because that kind of delusion is never sated and simply moves on to the next inane, absurd thing.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a subclass. That's just a fact.

Define subclass in such a way that this doesn't count.

[klogaroth]

Define subclass in such a way that this doesn't count.

A subclass requires a significant specialisation into a theme of your class. Spec achieves this, talents and covenant abilities do not. In the time before we had enough AP to fill out artifact weapons, picking certain abilities in your weapon, and a particular talent setup was not a subclass. Same here. Picking some talents and some covenant options is not a subclass.

It could be said that fire mage is a subclass of mage, though the game chooses to call it specialisation. A mage that uses rune of power and meteor is not a subclass of mage.

[NineSpine]

A subclass requires a significant specialisation into a theme of your class. Spec achieves this, talents and covenant abilities do not. In the time before we had enough AP to fill out artifact weapons, picking certain abilities in your weapon, and a particular talent setup was not a subclass. Same here. Picking some talents and some covenant options is not a subclass.

It could be said that fire mage is a subclass of mage, though the game chooses to call it specialisation. A mage that uses rune of power and meteor is not a subclass of mage.

Covenants have WAY more in common with spec than they do with talents. They are discreet options that are not able to borrow from each other, just like spec. They cannot be swapped at will, just like spec. They have distinct internal choices that are different from other covenants and allow focusing on specific aspects of that covenant, like spec.

They have basically nothing in common with talents.

[FlubberPuddy]

can you link those legendaries??

If that's how you wanna see em, go ahead. But Blizzard has literally said to treat them like choosing a class. There's also apparently supposed to be covenant specific legendaries and/or legendaries that modify your covenant abilities which we haven't seen yet.

Keep up with the news first dude.

Also I'm not saying whether the playerbase wants to consider them a class or not, I'm saying that's what Blizzard is telling players to treat the choice like.

[razorpax]

Swapping just the abilities is absurd. The abilities are part of a kit. They would all have to be reassessed and rebalanced around their potential pairings with EVERY other covenant if that was done.

You can go with whatever covenant you want. The fact that you have developed some kind of obsessive-compulsive derangement where you think minor degrees of being sub-optimal in some situation is being "CRIPPLED" is a YOU problem and I am not interested in a game developed in accordance with that kind of delusional thinking, largely because that kind of delusion is never sated and simply moves on to the next inane, absurd thing.

ok lets say im on my monk and i take the night fae ability but im in the kyrian covenant

you know what i lose??

1 soulbind ability that either increases a stat or increases damage
there is almost 0 actual interaction between the ability and the covenant

you dont have to swap if the choice is there so if the possibility of the choice existing makes you not like the game because someone will suggest you do it and you cant tell them no then idk what to tell you because you dont swap talents apparently

the difference in dps between say a kyrian monk and a night fae monk will be large and not just because of the ability
night fae has a soul bind that can boost your dps by up to 15% during execute and a 10% crit increase on pull
kyrian has....a 5% vers increase and a 5% mastery increase when you use the covenant ability which is on a long CD and mastery is garbage

but of course we must look into the conduits as well right
1 conduit that effect the covenant ability each and the one for kyrian increases the duration by 5 seconds and the mastery bonus by 5%
night fae is a 10% damage increase per target

the abilities themselves are also very different
kyrian doesnt really work too well with the class and is essentially just a damage boost ST on a 2m CD if im remembering right and a 5 second duration
night fae is a shockwave aoe that leaves an aoe on the ground pulling up chi and energy which again isnt really useful but you have a chance to reset the CD which is 30 secs and the faeline lasts for 30 seconds

now are you going to tell me that swapping those two abilities would destroy the soul bind and conduit system??

oh but the legendaries

yeah currently 0 legendaries attached to the covenant abilites

so tell me why shoiuldnt i be allowed to swap the abilities??

- - - Updated - - -

Keep up with the news first dude.

Also I'm not saying whether the playerbase wants to consider them a class or not, I'm saying that's what Blizzard is telling players to treat the choice like.

yeah blizzards track record is kinda shit with these things

they will flip

- - - Updated - - -

Covenants have WAY more in common with spec than they do with talents. They are discreet options that are not able to borrow from each other, just like spec. They cannot be swapped at will, just like spec. They have distinct internal choices that are different from other covenants and allow focusing on specific aspects of that covenant, like spec.

They have basically nothing in common with talents.

they can be swapped
you can swap between all 4 and not have your overall gameplay changed like talents
interaction between them and the rest of your abilities is almost 0 unless stated like talents
they are the same no matter what spec you are in like some talents

[klogaroth]

Covenants have WAY more in common with spec than they do with talents. They are discreet options that are not able to borrow from each other, just like spec. They cannot be swapped at will, just like spec. They have distinct internal choices that are different from other covenants and allow focusing on specific aspects of that covenant, like spec.

They have basically nothing in common with talents.

Spec can't be swapped at will??



Covenants exist above the class level. Necrolord cannot be a subclass of anything, because it exists for everything. That's where the "sub" comes from. It exists within your class, under it. Covenants do not.

The individual abilities (that should not be tied to the covenants) function in a similar manner to talents, but with a massively more steep respec cost in the form of a re-grind to go back.

[NineSpine]

ok lets say im on my monk and i take the night fae ability but im in the kyrian covenant

you know what i lose??

1 soulbind ability that either increases a stat or increases damage
there is almost 0 actual interaction between the ability and the covenant

you dont have to swap if the choice is there so if the possibility of the choice existing makes you not like the game because someone will suggest you do it and you cant tell them no then idk what to tell you because you dont swap talents apparently

the difference in dps between say a kyrian monk and a night fae monk will be large and not just because of the ability
night fae has a soul bind that can boost your dps by up to 15% during execute and a 10% crit increase on pull
kyrian has....a 5% vers increase and a 5% mastery increase when you use the covenant ability which is on a long CD and mastery is garbage

but of course we must look into the conduits as well right
1 conduit that effect the covenant ability each and the one for kyrian increases the duration by 5 seconds and the mastery bonus by 5%
night fae is a 10% damage increase per target

the abilities themselves are also very different
kyrian doesnt really work too well with the class and is essentially just a damage boost ST on a 2m CD if im remembering right and a 5 second duration
night fae is a shockwave aoe that leaves an aoe on the ground pulling up chi and energy which again isnt really useful but you have a chance to reset the CD which is 30 secs and the faeline lasts for 30 seconds

now are you going to tell me that swapping those two abilities would destroy the soul bind and conduit system??

oh but the legendaries

yeah currently 0 legendaries attached to the covenant abilites

so tell me why shoiuldnt i be allowed to swap the abilities??

If you allow people to mix and match, certain combinations could end up being significantly more powerful than others. Do you really expect me to believe that if Frost DKs are ripping up the charts because of one of these combos you aren't going to demand that the ability be nerfed? You will, and who does that nerf impact? Just you, or eeeeeeveryone else?

Stop being intentionally obtuse. You know just as well as I do that if you allow easy swapping you will immediately demand that any OP combos are nerfed to the group. Get real.

You need to make up your mind. Are the potential combos so profoundly important that you NEED THEM or are they so unimportant that Blizzard can't possibly need to balance them with each other? It can't be both.

yeah blizzards track record is kinda shit with these things

they will flip

The main expansion features have stayed relatively constant through each expansion except BFA.

they can be swapped
you can swap between all 4 and not have your overall gameplay changed like talents
interaction between them and the rest of your abilities is almost 0 unless stated like talents
they are the same no matter what spec you are in like some talents

So they are completely unimportant but also COMPLETELY NEEDED OR WE CANT PLAY THE GAME! Right.

- - - Updated - - -

Spec can't be swapped at will??

Covenants exist above the class level. Necrolord cannot be a subclass of anything, because it exists for everything. That's where the "sub" comes from. It exists within your class, under it. Covenants do not.

The individual abilities (that should not be tied to the covenants) function in a similar manner to talents, but with a massively more steep respec cost in the form of a re-grind to go back.

I'm not really super interested in definition games, because they are the refuge of those who can't make a genuine case, but the reality here is that distinct abilities for each class makes this a very light version of a subclass.

[razorpax]

If you allow people to mix and match, certain combinations could end up being significantly more powerful than others. Do you really expect me to believe that if Frost DKs are ripping up the charts because of one of these combos you aren't going to demand that the ability be nerfed? You will, and who does that nerf impact? Just you, or eeeeeeveryone else?

Stop being intentionally obtuse. You know just as well as I do that if you allow easy swapping you will immediately demand that any OP combos are nerfed to the group. Get real.

You need to make up your mind. Are the potential combos so profoundly important that you NEED THEM or are they so unimportant that Blizzard can't possibly need to balance them with each other? It can't be both.



The main expansion features have stayed relatively constant through each expansion except BFA.



So they are completely unimportant but also COMPLETELY NEEDED OR WE CANT PLAY THE GAME! Right.

1. the combo will be OP and will be nerfed like everything in the game and then players will swap

with the current system that will still happen but players will be punished for swapping by it requiring extra time and effort because blizzard decided to lock player power
this isnt new and one worry about the system because one covenant will be best one week then another covenent will be the best so players swap then it gets nerfed and the first one can be the best again so guess what....they swap but now its more difficult and yes that effects everyone thank you for pointing out the problem with the current system because if they werent connected to the covenant a majority of the players wouldnt notice

a covenant specific legendary isnt really a feature its more of an item like gorehowl from WoD when we were told grommash was the final boss

i didnt know that i was saying they should be removed....i dont think you understand so im going to try and be very clear and very simple

ability unattached from covenant
mean jimmy can swap
mean jimmy have choice
mean jimmy have fun at will
not mean removed

[Rageonit]

The way I see it, they should make Covenants easily swappable, but at the same time give incentive to not to do so. But that incentive can't be tied to player power, especiallly for instanced content. Make it quality of life stuff, economy bonuses (tied also to the mission table - the more renown you have with a certain Covenant, the better rewards you get), world buffs, cosmetic stuff like tmogs, pets, mounts... Make it so that for people who want to RP, there is a valuable reward for being faithful to your covenant choice. And that could be something that resets when you change your Covenant. Keeps min-maxers happy, gives RP-ers something to work for. So when you are an "ambassador" for your faction, you can be recognized in the world & get valuable (though mostly economic) benefits.

Because I do understand (and share) some of the concerns - especilly if you account for the fact that Blizzard has a long history of buffing/nerfing stuff. Some of the covenant abilities feel powerful now for certain classes; for others, there's still not enough info. I wouldn't like to wake up in a world where my previously amazing, signature ability suddenly becomes redundant or straight up bad, because they decided to nerf it. What then? Should they offer free Covenant reroll for affected people?

[NineSpine]

1. the combo will be OP and will be nerfed like everything in the game and then players will swap

with the current system that will still happen but players will be punished for swapping by it requiring extra time and effort because blizzard decided to lock player power
this isnt new and one worry about the system because one covenant will be best one week then another covenent will be the best so players swap then it gets nerfed and the first one can be the best again so guess what....they swap but now its more difficult and yes that effects everyone thank you for pointing out the problem with the current system because if they werent connected to the covenant a majority of the players wouldnt notice

a covenant specific legendary isnt really a feature its more of an item like gorehowl from WoD when we were told grommash was the final boss

i didnt know that i was saying they should be removed....

There is a distinct difference between being able to change covenant and being able to combine covenant abilities with different covenants. Those aren't the same thing, just like it's different to be able to switch between Affliction/Demo and being able to take a Felguard while specced Affliction.

- - - Updated - - -

The way I see it, they should make Covenants easily swappable, but at the same time give incentive to not to do so. But that incentive can't be tied to player power, especiallly for instanced content. Make it quality of life stuff, economy bonuses (tied also to the mission table - the more renown you have with a certain Covenant, the better rewards you get), world buffs, cosmetic stuff like tmogs, pets, mounts... Make it so that for people who want to RP, there is a valuable reward for being faithful to your covenant choice. And that could be something that resets when you change your Covenant. Keeps min-maxers happy, gives RP-ers something to work for. So when you are an "ambassador" for your faction, you can be recognized in the world & get valuable (though mostly economic) benefits.

Because I do understand (and share) some of the concerns - especilly if you account for the fact that Blizzard has a long history of buffing/nerfing stuff. Some of the covenant abilities feel powerful now for certain classes; for others, there's still not enough info. I wouldn't like to wake up in a world where my previously amazing, signature ability suddenly becomes redundant or straight up bad, because they decided to nerf it. What then? Should they offer free Covenant reroll for affected people?

You mean like what happens with classes.... every patch?

[Rageonit]

You mean like what happens with classes.... every patch?

Classes have a lot more going for them - it's not like when they nerf an ability, you suddenly become redundant or straight up bad as a whole. Covenant is just two main abilities plus some minor conduits. If they nerf an ability to the point where it's not worth using (and that could be a core reason of my choice), you're not left with much more. The idea of the system is that the ability you get is something great and worth using, so you actually feel a practical benefit of being in that Covenant. If that is stripped away... for many players, who are less into RPing faction choices and more into being a hero with amazing abilites - that can be a deal breaker.

[NineSpine]

Classes have a lot more going for them - it's not like when they nerf an ability, you suddenly become redundant or straight up bad as a whole. Covenant is just two main abilities plus some minor conduits. If they nerf an ability to the point where it's not worth using (and that could be a core reason of my choice), you're not left with much more. The idea of the system is that the ability you get is something great and worth using, so you actually feel a practical benefit of being in that Covenant. If that is stripped away... for many players, who are less into RPing faction choices and more into being a hero with amazing abilites - that can be a deal breaker.

When Blizzard starts radically changing covenant abilities every patch, that's when I am interested in hearing about this. Until then, I don't think its reasonable to demand the game be redesigned to accomodate paranoid hypothetics.