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  1. #1181
    So you want to hear about it when it becomes a valid problem, instead doing something to prevent it ever being a problem? It's hardly paranoid - like I said, Blizzard has a long history of buffing and nerfing abilities.

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    So you want to hear about it when it becomes a valid problem, instead doing something to prevent it ever being a problem? It's hardly paranoid - like I said, Blizzard has a long history of buffing and nerfing abilities.
    Yes, I want to hear about solutions to real problems, not solutions to delusional paranoid theories about the future. Crazy, I know.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #1183
    If your style of discussion is to call every argument you don't agree with "delusional" and "paranoid", you will soon be talking to yourself, mate.

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yes, I want to hear about solutions to real problems, not solutions to delusional paranoid theories about the future. Crazy, I know.
    paranoid theories

    like azerite gear being a problem because you have to unlock abilities over again

    like m+ being a problem because you would deplete the key and not get loot thus players who got carried through maw of souls had dead keys for a week

    like essences being locked behind different content and a pain on alts

    like TF

    like the ilvl lock on personal loot

    like corruption

    all of those things were called out before they went live

    im guessing that when it was talked about how WoD wouldnt have flying you waited until launch to share your thoughts

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If your style of discussion is to call every argument you don't agree with "delusional" and "paranoid", you will soon be talking to yourself, mate.
    It's just the truth. A whole series of avoidable, baseless "what ifs" about the future is not an argument for doing ANYTHING.

    It's as sensible as "WHAT IF MAGES HAVE ALL THEIR ABILITIES TAKEN AWAY IN THE NEXT EXPANSION? I DEMAND A FREE CLASS CHANGE WHENEVER I WANT JUST IN CASE!"

    I mean, have you considered that "We are making radical changes to this covenant, we are going to provide a free one time downside-free covenant swap when the patch goes out" might be a little less absurd of a solution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    paranoid theories

    like azerite gear being a problem because you have to unlock abilities over again

    like m+ being a problem because you would deplete the key and not get loot thus players who got carried through maw of souls had dead keys for a week

    like essences being locked behind different content and a pain on alts

    like TF

    like the ilvl lock on personal loot

    like corruption

    all of those things were called out before they went live

    im guessing that when it was talked about how WoD wouldnt have flying you waited until launch to share your thoughts
    I love pathfinder, so ok.

    Listing a bunch of other random, unrelated shit doesn't really make the case you seem to think it does.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  6. #1186
    You seem to miss the fact that for some abilites, even a small change can make it or breake it (like, I don't know, Fae Transfusion being instant for Enh instead of a channel) - and you exaggerate on purpose (are you really comparing it to taking away all abilities of a class?). Sorry to break it for you, but it makes your arguments look silly.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    There is a distinct difference between being able to change covenant and being able to combine covenant abilities with different covenants. Those aren't the same thing, just like it's different to be able to switch between Affliction/Demo and being able to take a Felguard while specced Affliction.

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    You mean like what happens with classes.... every patch?
    its not different

    you seem to think that the covenant is 100% gameplay

    having kyrian armor in the kyrian area on a kyrian mount with a kyrian soul bind and popping a night fae ability is not the same

    again you seem to be looking at this like "using blessing of season in kyrian makes no sense and break the covenant" when in reality its "using radiant spark as a venthyr just happened...fun"

    its no a fel guard in affliction its using the dreadstalker instead of the imp

    you can have two cahracters completely naked and you wont know what covenant they are until they use that one covenant ability

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    its not different

    you seem to think that the covenant is 100% gameplay

    having kyrian armor in the kyrian area on a kyrian mount with a kyrian soul bind and popping a night fae ability is not the same

    again you seem to be looking at this like "using blessing of season in kyrian makes no sense and break the covenant" when in reality its "using radiant spark as a venthyr just happened...fun"

    its no a fel guard in affliction its using the dreadstalker instead of the imp

    you can have two cahracters completely naked and you wont know what covenant they are until they use that one covenant ability
    The system is "pick a kit", not "pick from the buffet". Each of those ideas gets designed in a completely different way. Do you think your talent trees would look the same if you could pick any 10 choices rather than having three choices per tier? You aren't dealing with the real world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You seem to miss the fact that for some abilites, even a small change can make it or breake it (like, I don't know, Fae Transfusion being instant for Enh instead of a channel) - and you exaggerate on purpose (are you really comparing it to taking away all abilities of a class?). Sorry to break it for you, but it makes your arguments look silly.
    I demand to be allowed to swap my class at any time because Blizzard could theoretically nerf me someday.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I demand to be allowed to swap my class at any time because Blizzard could theoretically nerf me someday.
    Again, unnecessary exaggeration. In the example I've given: Fae Transfusion instant can be a great AoE tool for Enh, it being a channel is pretty much useless (you can't stand still as Enh and channel an ability for three seconds, it just won't work for melee class). And that ability is 50% of the Covenant active ability toolkit!
    So your argument should go like this: "I demand to be allowed to swap my class any time, because Blizzard could theoretically make 50% of my abilities unusable". And in that case, you have my vote: they should allow for a free class change in that scenario. But it's rather implausible they would make 50% of your abilities unusable, right? While it is quite plausible that they could make a minor change to a single ability that makes it or brakes it.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's just the truth. A whole series of avoidable, baseless "what ifs" about the future is not an argument for doing ANYTHING.

    It's as sensible as "WHAT IF MAGES HAVE ALL THEIR ABILITIES TAKEN AWAY IN THE NEXT EXPANSION? I DEMAND A FREE CLASS CHANGE WHENEVER I WANT JUST IN CASE!"

    I mean, have you considered that "We are making radical changes to this covenant, we are going to provide a free one time downside-free covenant swap when the patch goes out" might be a little less absurd of a solution?

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    I love pathfinder, so ok.

    Listing a bunch of other random, unrelated shit doesn't really make the case you seem to think it does.
    pathfinder didnt exist when that announcement came and the argument for everyone taht was ok with it being gone because it didnt effect them was "be quiet it doesnt effect you so stay out of it"

    also those arent unrelated dude....its all things that were introduced and the players pointed out problems with them in beta or ptr and they didnt get changed until after launch because it got into the hands of the general playerbase and they saw the issues with it

    i just dont want there to be 2 months of crap gameplay before the change is made because players dont see how they are effected and tell the ones who are to shove it

    if you disconnect the abilities from the covenants you get 0 negative side effects unless you can give me an example of what it could be outside of "a stranger might ask me to switch"

    why is making a free change every time they mess with a covenant (which will be weekly for a long time) any better than allowing us to swap abilities

    i love the kyrian armor and the kyrian story but in terms of stuff that effects my gameplay i hate it
    so its a choice of be in a covenant where i like the story and i like the aesthetics but hate the resulting gameplay OR be in a covenant where i like gameplay but hate everything else

    and you think giving players the choice to be happy with both is really bad because...blizzard said they were subclasses and the few links between abilities and the covenants are so important and changing them negatively impacts players who dont even swap specs

    like waht if little jimmy goes venthyr to try out an ability but doesnt like it so he wants to go back to his original covenant but is now punished because he wanted to try something new thats literally being punished for seeking out fun

    the best part of all this is that if the current system launches youll have unhappy people and some will quit but a change will eventually be made with blizzard saying they understand the players so why not just cut out that two months of time where players like jimmy will feel bad?

    at this point im convinced you are either of the mindset "this doesnt effect me so it shouldnt be changed" or you are of the mindset "theres a possibility this change might make me uncomfortable so the current system should stay"

    and the best part is the negative isnt even really a possible negative

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Again, unnecessary exaggeration. In the example I've given: Fae Transfusion instant can be a great AoE tool for Enh, it being a channel is pretty much useless (you can't stand still as Enh and channel an ability for three seconds, it just won't work for melee class). And that ability is 50% of the Covenant active ability toolkit!
    So your argument should go like this: "I demand to be allowed to swap my class any time, because Blizzard could theoretically make 50% of my abilities unusable". And in that case, you have my vote: they should allow for a free class change in that scenario. But it's rather implausible they would make 50% of your abilities unusable, right? While it is quite plausible that they could make a minor change to a single ability that makes it or brakes it.
    you dont understand though man

    theres a whole like 2 optional things per covenant that rely on that ability therefore the option to swap shouldnt exist even though the conduits themselves dont seem to require certain soulbinds so you could have the kyrian conduit in the necrolord soulbind

    i feel bad for venthyr mages because the ability they get is almost completely dead outside of pvp and a few encounters

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Again, unnecessary exaggeration. In the example I've given: Fae Transfusion instant can be a great AoE tool for Enh, it being a channel is pretty much useless (you can't stand still as Enh and channel an ability for three seconds, it just won't work for melee class). And that ability is 50% of the Covenant active ability toolkit!
    So your argument should go like this: "I demand to be allowed to swap my class any time, because Blizzard could theoretically make 50% of my abilities unusable". And in that case, you have my vote: they should allow for a free class change in that scenario. But it's rather implausible they would make 50% of your abilities unusable, right? While it is quite plausible that they could make a minor change to a single ability that makes it or brakes it.
    So I have your vote that classes should be hot swappable all the time because of theoretical nerfs?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #1192
    No, because I find it implausible that they could make 50% of your abilities unusable or just bad, while I find it plausible they could make 1 ability unusable or just bad. Problem is, that ability is 50% of a covenant's ability toolkit.

  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by razorpax View Post
    pathfinder didnt exist when that announcement came and the argument for everyone taht was ok with it being gone because it didnt effect them was "be quiet it doesnt effect you so stay out of it"

    also those arent unrelated dude....its all things that were introduced and the players pointed out problems with them in beta or ptr and they didnt get changed until after launch because it got into the hands of the general playerbase and they saw the issues with it

    i just dont want there to be 2 months of crap gameplay before the change is made because players dont see how they are effected and tell the ones who are to shove it

    if you disconnect the abilities from the covenants you get 0 negative side effects unless you can give me an example of what it could be outside of "a stranger might ask me to switch"

    why is making a free change every time they mess with a covenant (which will be weekly for a long time) any better than allowing us to swap abilities

    i love the kyrian armor and the kyrian story but in terms of stuff that effects my gameplay i hate it
    so its a choice of be in a covenant where i like the story and i like the aesthetics but hate the resulting gameplay OR be in a covenant where i like gameplay but hate everything else

    and you think giving players the choice to be happy with both is really bad because...blizzard said they were subclasses and the few links between abilities and the covenants are so important and changing them negatively impacts players who dont even swap specs

    like waht if little jimmy goes venthyr to try out an ability but doesnt like it so he wants to go back to his original covenant but is now punished because he wanted to try something new thats literally being punished for seeking out fun

    the best part of all this is that if the current system launches youll have unhappy people and some will quit but a change will eventually be made with blizzard saying they understand the players so why not just cut out that two months of time where players like jimmy will feel bad?

    at this point im convinced you are either of the mindset "this doesnt effect me so it shouldnt be changed" or you are of the mindset "theres a possibility this change might make me uncomfortable so the current system should stay"

    and the best part is the negative isnt even really a possible negative

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    you dont understand though man

    theres a whole like 2 optional things per covenant that rely on that ability therefore the option to swap shouldnt exist even though the conduits themselves dont seem to require certain soulbinds so you could have the kyrian conduit in the necrolord soulbind

    i feel bad for venthyr mages because the ability they get is almost completely dead outside of pvp and a few encounters
    Since I've repeated myself three times and you've ignored it every time, in favor of these bloviating repetions, I'm pretty much done. Let me know when you are done listening to yourself type and feel like addressing the balance issues of turning "pick a kit" into a"Mix and match".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    No, because I find it implausible that they could make 50% of your abilities unusable or just bad, while I find it plausible they could make 1 ability unusable or just bad. Problem is, that ability is 50% of a covenant's ability toolkit.
    I find it implausible that a covenant would be made completely awful and useless and destroy your ability to play the game.

    And if they did do that, I'm all for a free one time swap.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So I have your vote that classes should be hot swappable all the time because of theoretical nerfs?
    Of course, and it should be hot swappable in middle of encounter as soon as you start going down in dps charts. You know, like the moment your fire damage goes out of burn phase you hotswap to other class with steady dps, and once you reach 30/20% of boss you hotswap to class that has executes. Thats totally how game should work!

  15. #1195
    I never said anything about destroying my ability to play the game. Since the very beginning, I argue that it feels bad if your signature Covenant ability is bad, because it destroys the feeling of being practically benefitted for working for a certain Covenant. And I do believe that in at least some cases, small changes to said abilities can make them or brake them.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Of course, and it should be hot swappable in middle of encounter as soon as you start going down in dps charts. You know, like the moment your fire damage goes out of burn phase you hotswap to other class with steady dps, and once you reach 30/20% of boss you hotswap to class that has executes. Thats totally how game should work!
    If these guys genuinely got their way, that's what they would like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I never said anything about destroying my ability to play the game. Since the very beginning, I argue that it feels bad if your signature Covenant ability is bad, because it destroys the feeling of being practically benefitted for working for a certain Covenant. And I do believe that in at least some cases, small changes to said abilities can make them or brake them.
    You clearly define bad as "At all suboptimal in any way in any particular moment". That's just not reasonable or realistic.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #1197
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If these guys genuinely got their way, that's what they would like.
    Hardly, I'd never ever want it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You clearly define bad as "At all suboptimal in any way in any particular moment". That's just not reasonable or realistic.
    No, I've never defined what "bad" means.

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Since I've repeated myself three times and you've ignored it every time, in favor of these bloviating repetions, I'm pretty much done. Let me know when you are done listening to yourself type and feel like addressing the balance issues of turning "pick a kit" into a"Mix and match".

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    I find it implausible that a covenant would be made completely awful and useless and destroy your ability to play the game.

    And if they did do that, I'm all for a free one time swap.
    the balancing issues are the same

    lets say i have an OP combo and blizzard nerfs it

    in the case of the current system i would swap covenants

    in the case of now having abilities tied to the covenant i would swap abilities

    now if they nerfed that to make the previous combo better
    current system would punish players by more gating thus punishing the player because they like to optimize their character
    proposed system: just swap ability

    this allows players to have their preferred story and aesthetic choice at all times and not feel punished for things outside of their control

    now comparing this to class choice and your abilities being nerfed is nowhere near the same thing because your class is the only 100% permanent choice beyond your race that you make in this game

    a better comparison would be if you were a mage and they nerfed fire in which case you would swap to frost or arcane and then if they nerfed that to the point fire was the best again you would then just swap spec which at no point effects any of the story or cosmetic choices you have on your character

    as for a covenant being awful and useless and destroying your ability to play the game all they have to do is make the venthyr mage ability not work on players because then the ability really does have like 5% usefulness

    i just want player power not connected to a story or cosmetic choice because its never happened like that before and the way they want to do it now is bad and has so many issues that you can see the complaints are not dying down and blizzard is only enforcing the concerns

    "wait to judge the covenant abilities until you see everything including soulbinds in this system" well we have waited and guess what...the problems arent fixed

    if the soulbinds and conduits effected how the ability functioned i would be on your side of not swapping because at the point it would break them but they dont
    they increase damage or duration or a stat boost and that isnt enough to off set the complaints

    again i will go with mage because this is the worst case

    kyrian: general use slightly more towards ST

    necrolord: general use more cleave

    night fae: aoe CD reduction

    venthyr: debuff causing interrupt dealing damage

    if you go into a fight like patchwerk you will get some use from 3 of those abilities but you wont from venthyr because it reuires a cast that can be interrupted.
    as a mage im not going to choose venthyr for the ability but maybe i like the cosmetics

    so this means that no matter how the abilities are balanced the venthyr mage will not have that extra gameplay because they cant use that ability.

    Now if there was a fight with an interrupt then a venthyr mage can finally use their ability while the others can always use their ability



    now why should someone who likes the cosmetics and is ok with commiting to a covenant be punished because of how the ability is designed

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because you want lobby based game.
    Bold of you to assume what I want from how I view a system in a totally different game. A complete rework of WoW that is heavily choice based with no queue spamming and no compromises where nobody has any idea what the fuck they're doing is a dream come true. Don't presume how someone feels about games and how to enjoy them simply because they're offering feedback for something that is the hand they were dealt, whether they like that hand or not.

    Buuut they buried the lead too deep. That just isn't this present game. And they'd need an entire rework of the entire principles of the way the game works for me to accept this system. I don't buy it, and at worst it feels like an arbitrary set of decisions to trick people into wanting to swap regularly to boost out numbers and time. At best it's still going to be a shitshow, just a well-meaning one.

    Nope, in wow there is no optimization, your bis is already known because of lack of titanforging, and there will be zero in shadowlands, because of static gear.
    I enjoy it in PoE where this aspect EXISTS. In wow it just doesn't exist, there is and always was a clear path of gearing, and way too simple talents.
    But there are still better talents and better specs, no?

    Too late for that and nothing has really changed. Demo is still vastly different than affli.
    "It's too late. Better make some terrible design decisions. IDK, it doesn't matter, just do it I guess, it's too late lol."

    And what is the problem? It's the same aspect with covenants. If they are at least properly balanced, you still can play optimally within the covenant you chose.
    You know, maybe because you fucking hate the other covenant abilities?
    If you think they will, you are either hopelessly naive or just arguing in bad faith at this point.

    They are not called covenants, just factions. And major "feature" of shadowlands would cease to exist.
    A Covenant literally just means an agreement. There is nothing distinctive that separates a Covenant or a Faction or any other arbitrary term for it. You have decided a Covenant is only a feature if it makes a direct impact on player power, but that basically means that you're part of the problem, because you're insistent that it's the only way.

    New story elements come out for a game that doesn't give player power? Guess it's not a real feature, according to you. New characters to interact with? "It's not a real feature because it didn't make my character stronger!" New zone that doesn't give direct gear upgrades for people already ahead via raids? "Lol that's not a feature, it doesn't give me power!"

    Yeah, no. MMOs cover a wide variety of topics and interests, as even you have been aware enough to understand, and that's frankly an accomplishment. Something does not stop being a god damn feature because you have deemed it so.

    Besides, you ignored that you'd still have Soulbinds and Conduits anyway, so your "player choice" in infinite sarcastic quotation marks remains.

    You don't realize do you? I will pick probably what is best UNLESS blizzard will tell me to "fuck off" and start nerfing/buffing shit like they should.
    Sounds like you're pretty self-hating, then. I wonder how your guild feels about the fact that one of their own deliberately wants a major corporation to take a big shit all over their efforts to enjoy a game.

    BUT I will still have the choice on alts. Just not the one I plan to raid with.
    "I have to eat my meat in order to have my pudding because Daddy Blizzard has deemed it so. It's fine for me to actually do what I like after investing hours into a character where I feel an obligation...but have no self-awareness of how absurd that sounds."

    This is like talking to someone in an abusive relationship.

    Then they just have to fuck off, it's that simple. Blizzard desinged it in their own game, if they decide to put a permanent debuff on you and you only that makes you deal -50% damage, they can, and they can tell you to fuck off.
    "Blizzard designed it and it's their game" is up there with "you can't criticize my shitty fanfic because it's mine, just don't read it!!!!1" That's why Blizz asks for feedback and give alpha keys to people who almost unanimously hate this shit. But those people only matter if their opinion aligns with yours, I guess.

    Point is, if you would like to please everyone, you would have to make all damn classes a single button spec with constant damage. Never add anything new, never let game move forward and let it die. There will be always people who dislike something.
    There will always be people who dislike something in a community that ranges from hundreds of thousands to millions, depending on the time of the expac cycle, yes. That's why you need to use common sense and to be discerning in regards to complaints. If you respond to any criticism with dismissal because everyone criticizes something, you have the opposite problem where the game is always perfect.

    This is why people who rightly pointed out the problems in Legion and BFA were all dismissed as chicken littles, and then the community that the defenders insisted were "just the top 1%" all unanimously fucking hated those systems. Then Blizzard fumbled around like a freshman with a bra trying to fix those systems for like 2.5 patches before they settled on something that was mediocre instead of awful.

    Well this toon went from zero to hero in month. Pretty fast considering I was in like middle of pack on last boss while starting so late in patch.
    And I actually was 5th damage on nzoth itself. That is pretty good result I would say despite people having overall higher dps.
    But I thought gear was an excuse? You should be hero in 0 seconds. You should be getting 99th percentile parses wearing Mists greens, right?

    There is no feedback because blizzard doesn't ask community about anything, that is shit part of them. They should send surveys, not ask on forums where almost nobody checks and responds.
    They fucking do. But even then, the people who don't offer an iota of feedback usually end up disliking things that they defended at the inception. We've been through this for 2 full expansions, dude. People turned a blind eye to what the minority was warning about, because they were the minority, and it turned out to be absolute fucking dogshit.

    When you're offering strawman arguments in other posts like "haha people wanna switch specs mid-fight :^)" then you're just acknowledging you have no interest in talking about this in good faith and frankly just don't want to think about anything uncomfortable.

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by Sofo1 View Post
    remove player power from covenants and you are not forced to do anything.

    It's been said million times, 1 covenant will be the best dps whise -> blizz will nerf it -> people will be pissed because of their investment in that covenant -> they have to mend the situation.
    Yeah pretty much this. There's no reason that player power should be decided solely by each covenant having one arbitrary ability that is decided for your class by Blizzard ahead of time. Soulbinds or whatever can be interesting and probably would be much closer on balance since you have multiple choices that power you up instead of one big ability just given to you.

    Covenant choice should have been solely or mostly cosmetic/aesthetic and permanent as well. You select Venthyr then your character can never change, but you also don't feel like you have to change because you picked the "wrong" special ability. If they absolutely just HAVE to have some player power behind the system then it should have been soulbinds which have multiple options per Covenant, and would be easier to balance.

    Giving an ability for choosing a Covenant is just bad no matter how you look at it. Each ability is either a super OP ability with a niche use so each one feels exciting and unique (and then you have to select the one that's best for your content) OR each ability does virtually nothing and is boring which ends up feeling like they pointlessly slapped something on just because. Just remove this and give us Soulbinds as our power.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2020-07-17 at 05:40 PM.

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