Best way to bring out the stars in the Kaldorei (Children of the Stars)?

[ravenmoon]

Because that's what they are now. Would it finally satisfy you if they just did the now all too commonplace theme of renaming themselves? Tree'dorei?

No it would piss me off, but I'd accept them for that.

However I'd find it unnecessary. They can achieve the same thing with the night elf worgen as an allied race being tree-dorei, it would be a loss to the night elves to do that

but I d accept if the Nightborne were developed as the kaldorei sub race they were introduced as, and the two together developed as two halves if the same race - Nightborne being the Highborne wing, night elves being the druid wing, priests shared by both

[Beloren]

No it would piss me off, but I'd accept them for that.

However I'd find it unnecessary. They can achieve the same thing with the night elf worgen as an allied race being tree-dorei, it would be a loss to the night elves to do that

but I d accept if the Nightborne were developed as the kaldorei sub race they were introduced as, and the two together developed as two halves if the same race - Nightborne being the Highborne wing, night elves being the druid wing, priests shared by both

I think the elf focus has shifted slightly from what you and Mace keep talking about, Maybe it's cos you're older. I think now the elves come in two umbrella groups. Night and Thalassian.

Within each group you have different races carrying out different functions, and they sort of form the whole. e.g. the Night elf group you have:

Kaldorei
Nightborne
Highborne
Illidari
Worgen
Naga
Satyr

So it's a set, the kaldorei don't need to show everything evenly, because although the nightborne are across the faction line, they are still part of the package. So kaldorei show mainly the forest bits and the priestly bits, the Nightborne show mainly the arcane bits - it's all connected to the same Night elf umbrella, it's just focused differently. It's like void elves and blood elves, they're across the faction divide, but the void elves continue the blood elf race, just a facet of it.


Kaldorei - druids and amazonians, Nightborne = highborne pre-sundering in the present, Highborne = faded glory of the old nobility, Illidari - the demon hybrid elves forged to destroy the legion, Worgen = full on nature emerald dream night elves (yet to be fleshed out), Naga = the cursed aberration Highborne who went full dark elf bringing the Legion then switching to the old gods, Satyr = demonic transformed night elves of the evil class.

Together these 7 groups make up the Night elf, and together they show everything of the Night elves. Blizzard could have shown the Highborne in the Nightborne group, but i distinctly remember you quoting Mace saying that it was actually better for the highborne to develop a sub-race in the Nightborne and operate as an allied group. You're just thrown off because they're horde, but it should work the same way if you take off the faction lens.

[Isilrien]

Wow. This obsession is unhealthy and really disturbing to see. I like the Night Elves, but I don't understand this obsession and eternal desire to present *personal opinion* as what Blizzard intended but strayed from in yet *another* thread. What they intended with the NE is what we see in the game, not what you and, seemingly, only a very small minority want them to be. I agree with Alanar and others who are posting negative comments--you have every right to your own opinions, but you are way off base to insist that YOUR OPINION represents the Night Elven culture as Blizzard intended. It does not. Blizzard is in control here, not you, and they have not taken the path you want them to.

[Powerogue]

but I d accept if the Nightborne were developed as the kaldorei sub race they were introduced as, and the two together developed as two halves if the same race - Nightborne being the Highborne wing, night elves being the druid wing, priests shared by both

The thing is, culturally, night elves are the nightborne sub-race, having deviated from their original highborne culture while the nightborne kept it.

Physically, nightborne are the night elf sub-race due to prolonged exposure to magic giving them unique character models, as with others we've seen. Oddly enough, night elves being the only exception thus far to this pattern with their prolonged use of nature and moon magic. Discounting Malfurion, of course. Maybe the night warrior followers with their eyes, too.

These distinctions are things that, as far as I can tell, don't matter to Blizzard, who are far more concerned that the various playable race archetypes are represented for players to roleplay as. Tree elves? Check. Star elves? Check.

It's like clinging to how teeeeeechnically the new cosmetic options don't allow for playable wildhammer dwarves, sandfury trolls, and high elves, even though they absolutely do.

[ravenmoon]

The thing is on the horde they're not developed any longer as kaldorei empire highborne - their is little of that pre-sundering civilziation expounded or anything at root kaldorei outside their appearance and city and their past. (i.e. before 7.3.5), this is where the concern is. If the playable Nightborne had expanded on the arcaen'dor more, we saw Elunism expand through their priesthood, druidism brought through the Valewalker and Val'sharah druids - and a lot of star themes reflected, ones that are actively shared with the kaldorei like some of the cultural things I name. Then they'd feel like a different people, intellectuals with a more supernatural spiritualism drawn from the stars and moon as opposed to the outright full on pragmattism of the Thalassian.

they lack and soulful expression and need to deliver more on pre-sundering civilization they are displaying, which needs to feel unique enough in and of itself when compared ot the THalassian which is an evolution of the old night elven ways. The distinctions are important and they're not that

One place to start would be to completely cull the sun aspect of Balance.

I get that's -why- it's called Balance but Wrath just isn't as appealing of a spell as Lunar Strike.

At least give sun spells to Tauren and Trolls, and moon spells to Night Elves and Worgen.

I think it suffers most from not fleshing out the lore poroperly. We see high Botnaist Tel'arn and 3 distinct magical energies, the night moon/stars is represented byt he arcane - alwyas has been in warcraft, but solar was not in the nature school, and this makes sense. Solar was it's own energy and it was fire damage. So he had nature, elemental and arcane damage.

The problem is Tauren druidism is base don ngiht elven one, night elven one is focused on balance between arcane and nature, the night (stars and moon) and the day which is very Kaldorei in nautre.. A Tauren appropriate druidic stream would have instead focused on the seasons and a balance between either the wet and dry seasons or the 4 seasons.. while the troll one entirely different, based on heavy loa influences and what that means. The drust one currently feels unique enough as it is, with the drust magic the thornspeakers etc, very nature based and could focus on the balance between life and decay.

- - - Updated - - -

The thing is, culturally, night elves are the nightborne sub-race, having deviated from their original highborne culture while the nightborne kept it.

Physically, nightborne are the night elf sub-race due to prolonged exposure to magic giving them unique character models, as with others we've seen. Oddly enough, night elves being the only exception thus far to this pattern with their prolonged use of nature and moon magic. Discounting Malfurion, of course. Maybe the night warrior followers with their eyes, too.

These distinctions are things that, as far as I can tell, don't matter to Blizzard, who are far more concerned that the various playable race archetypes are represented for players to roleplay as. Tree elves? Check. Star elves? Check.

It's like clinging to how teeeeeechnically the new cosmetic options don't allow for playable wildhammer dwarves, sandfury trolls, and high elves, even though they absolutely do.

I'm a nerd, isn't htat what we do.

[Beloren]

The thing is on the horde they're not developed any longer as kaldorei empire highborne - their is little of that pre-sundering civilziation expounded or anything at root kaldorei outside their appearance and city and their past. (i.e. before 7.3.5), this is where the concern is. If the playable Nightborne had expanded on the arcaen'dor more, we saw Elunism expand through their priesthood, druidism brought through the Valewalker and Val'sharah druids - and a lot of star themes reflected, ones that are actively shared with the kaldorei like some of the cultural things I name. Then they'd feel like a different people, intellectuals with a more supernatural spiritualism drawn from the stars and moon as opposed to the outright full on pragmattism of the Thalassian.

they lack and soulful expression and need to deliver more on pre-sundering civilization they are displaying, which needs to feel unique enough in and of itself when compared ot the THalassian which is an evolution of the old night elven ways. The distinctions are important and they're not that

But was it though? Suramar and the Nightborne are a pretty accurate portrayal of the kaldorei empire night elves, and Legion does a fantasitic job, so I don’t think it’s as lost as you feel.


Give it some time, it's not like they've actually focused on the Nightborne particularly since then. I admit there is a danger they will lose their kaldorei basis if blizzard just don't do anything, but wiat and see.

[ravenmoon]

But was it though? Suramar and the Nightborne are a pretty accurate portrayal of the kaldorei empire night elves, and Legion does a fantasitic job, so I don’t think it’s as lost as you feel.


Give it some time, it's not like they've actually focused on the Nightborne particularly since then. I admit there is a danger they will lose their kaldorei basis if blizzard just don't do anything, but wiat and see.

This is exactly what happened to the kaldorei, they did nothing, and then all people could think of them was as forest elves, so new devs came in with that ijpression and their iddntity was lost. And my problem with them in the horde is the failure of the development of the identity of the Nightborne as the night elven mutated highborne group they are. We’ve just seen them as purple blodoe lves so far, they lack anything kaldorei feeling about them.

Wow. This obsession is unhealthy and really disturbing to see. I like the Night Elves, but I don't understand this obsession and eternal desire to present *personal opinion* as what Blizzard intended but strayed from in yet *another* thread. What they intended with the NE is what we see in the game, not what you and, seemingly, only a very small minority want them to be. I agree with Alanar and others who are posting negative comments--you have every right to your own opinions, but you are way off base to insist that YOUR OPINION represents the Night Elven culture as Blizzard intended. It does not. Blizzard is in control here, not you, and they have not taken the path you want them to.

I think you're just listening tot hem rather than listening to what i'm saying. They're the ones saying my opinion represents the Night elven culture. that's not what I'm saying. they're really not that interested in night elves, they've concluded every time i mention stuff about night elves I'm trying to force the night elves ino something they don't agree with . I t doesn't matter what I say.

This topic was meant to discuss concepts to bring out the star culture in the night elves, not one of these replies outside the first few is actually focused on that. What does this tell you? The critics aren't interested in what i have to say, but what only their opinion of my intentions, and thus we have accusations, I'm being badgered and harassed - but like an idiot i in good faith reply to them earnestly as if they genuinely mean the things they say, even though I'm seeing that this seems to have strayed into something that isn't what my topic was meant to discuss.

it starts with Enigmaddicts reply, his first sentence is okay. But look at the second parragaraph.

This sounds interesting and all, but tbh, I think you're the only one really into night elves like this. The developers I don't think care that much. THey're happy with them having the forest elf theme as their core fantasy, if they wanted to go for the more unique star elf theme, they'd have done it by now.
.

Then powerrogue:

Most of that feels like it'd fit the nightborne better if we want to get into super fancy jewelry and arcane star symbols adorning them. Have you seen their city? Sometimes it literally rains little arcane stars, it's gorgeous.

Then Enigmaddict again

Yep, I think so to, and I've told him so in the other topic. The Nightborne are really that side of the kaldorei, so you don't need to show it in the night elves, these are great ideas for Nightborne. Blizzard should use them in the Nightborne. Sure the night elves can share many of these two, but a lot of the character customisations should be Nightborne, while the cultural stuff makes sense to be shared. I can imagine night elves naming children and ordering their destinies based on stars or use to, and while that depends on your group (i.e. whether druid or priest), some still follow he old naming styles, but all the nightborne still operate like that - because they are the pure kaldorei pre-sundering civilziation.


This is what I told him.

They are the ones that start making it a matter of horde elves vs alliance elves. I'm fully aware of what the Nightborne are, and I attempt to acknowledge that a lot of this should be present there, but they are the ones stating their opinion as fact on the identity of the night elves, and you come in and basically let yourself be swept up by the majority - who aren't always right and are doing the thing you are accusing me off doing. If I wanted to continue that sort of argument, i'd use the other topic going for that.

But you don't see it even. I want a fun post for creative important, and I'm having to argue and justify why the night elves should be called children of the stars, it's beyond idiotic, and I am somehow clearly the crazed fan in the wrong?

[Beloren]

This is exactly what happened to the kaldorei, they did nothing, and then all people could think of them was as forest elves, so new devs came in with that ijpression and their iddntity was lost. And my problem with them in the horde is the failure of the development of the identity of the Nightborne as the night elven mutated highborne group they are. We’ve just seen them as purple blodoe lves so far, they lack anything kaldorei feeling about them.

But that’s cos you haven’t gotten back into their culture in the narrative yet, you’ve just seen them as individuals – mainly

[Illusions]

Feels like with these thread titles, it's only a coin toss to predict whether ravenmoon or Mace started the thread. Also feels like I need a bingo card for the thread. They're getting seriously repetitive. However, a few points:

a) You started by saying you brought this from official forums. Can you link to the original post? Did you start it or are you just posting someone else's thread over here? ((And if it's someone else, is it Mace?))

b) In a way, I do agree that the STARS are somewhat missing from the general speech and decoration. However, as Elune is The Moon, I believe ((headcanon, I think - though it might also be said somewhere)) Night Elves see themselves as part of the stars in the sky, with Elune ruling over them. Obviously, in real life, stars are just distant suns and the Moon has no real relevance or effect over them, but it's quite likely Night Elves just see Elune ruling over the sky and the stars. I think that's where the name really comes from.

c) Depicting stars might be hard (on decorations) as they'd be pentagram-esque and edge too close to real life satanism - perhaps that's why they've avoided it as well? Having moon-jewelry make more sense for Night Elves due to their religion than star-jewelry. I'm not exactly sure whether customization options should include stars in hair or w/e, that derails them from all the official depictions.

d) When you think of night elves, you should instead think of Elune, Druidism, Sentinels as the three core aspects of the race. Mages are a remnant of the past and if you had to have four keywords, the fourth would be Mages/Arcane. I'm not sure why you're hellbent on eschewing the Sentinel/warrior part of the Night Elves, when they are a huge part of them right now, larger than the Highborne/Arcanists, equally as large as Sisterhood or Druidic factions.

e) In general - I think the Star part falls under the Moon - Elune. The religion. They don't need explicit distinction from Elune, because the religion already covers the stars. Something something Kaldorei made in the shape of Elune something something children of the stars something something it's the same thing.

f) I do agree that the Priests in game follow a more humanized version of the class identity and I'd love to see a reskin to match the racial/cultural identities more. Not just with Night Elves, but other races too. In Vanilla, Priests had a Lunar Shard ability or smth, and I'd much rather see the Star spells moved to Priest class rather than Balance Druid. That way, we can do away with the boring cosmic wankery of Balance Druid and instead have it focus on the forest part of Night Elves solely. Using vines and wind and Nature energy to your offensive and defensive needs is more interesting than what they have now without much explanation how it works for Druids.

It'd also be much more interesting for Night Elven mages to have actual Star spells to create a distinction, but I'm not sure where those would fit in, hence why I'd rather have it be a thing for Priests. You could even reskin the Shadow spec to depict the more offensive part better - remember how Tyrande intimidated Saurfang in Darkshore? ((She totally should've just slain him there.)) Mind Flay could be similar to the Lunar Shard which was also channeled and other spells can be changed in a similar way.

[Isilrien]

...But you don't see it even. I want a fun post for creative important, and I'm having to argue and justify why the night elves should be called children of the stars, it's beyond idiotic, and I am somehow clearly the crazed fan in the wrong?

I'm not listening to you because you are completely missing something that is vitally important here: You did not create the NE; Blizzard did. That is why you are coming across as "the crazed fan in the wrong." You are refusing Blizzard's representation of them, which all the negative comments are pointing out in one way or another. So, pot meet kettle as far as not listening.

Ravenmoon, I'm not going to be drawn any longer into this argument. I'm done because it's exhausting. Best wishes to you.

[plz delete account]

From the official forums, I'd like to bring this over and hear your thoughts on this. The lack of development on the night elves has lead to an off kilter presentation, but the most core identity of them has had little no follow through in their visible content. Why? And what can be done. This is what is discussed here.

** Dislcaimer"" if you don't want to talk about elves, no need to respond.


Blizz, what happened to the core of the night elves?
Kaldorei - meaning Children of the STARS is what they are named after and I presume originally centred on, but got diverted from that destiny after the Legion came. I'm kinda quite curious at this stage, especially since the Legion and Long Vigil are now over, and the main theme of this race and details of its original culture and identity which it didn't rename itself from still seems core to them, but not focused on or fleshed out in game by blizz.


With the Legion and Long Vigil gone, it's given the night elves room to develop this more fully - But it's lack so far leaves me with the impression blizz kinda strayed a bit too far off track with the nigh elves who seem more like children of the trees or moon than stars.


Another thing worth mentioning is "the stars" is a very unique focus concept and makes you more excited and mysterious than the over used wood elf and dark elf themes, so it seems odd to cut out potentially the most unique rewarding and creative feature of the night elves and I greatly desire highly recommend they start showing them as their namesake.


Would really like to see them get back to that original "best of the dark elves meet best of the wood elves" vision with the stars and moon unique elements playing central roles intertwined with their arcane and nature duality.
Do you remember this interview?
`https://i.imgur.com/koc3l88.png`


Now emphasising the stars and the role they play in every facet of these two major parts of the night elves - arcane civilisation and forest life I think would make them more exciting and feel like the unique elven group the marrying of dark elf and forest elf original vision seemed to hint at. Sadly most of wow has been lame elf and wood elf for the night elves, rather than star focused dark elf and wood elf.


So as far as the things about the night elves we know most of from screen time in game are:


The Forest connection we get a lot of
Night elf lore on forest love is pretty fleshed out and integrated in the race - with druidism and the emerald dream having a lot of info on it, nature and the wild gods.


We also see the night elves connect to nature screen time wise and we get it. Druids in animals, looking after trees, caring for them, forest communities.


Character customisation added vines and bushy eyebrows too - we gots that. But they aren't children of the forest or trees.


"The Moon connection we get a fair bit of too
Next is Elune. She's been showing up more thanks tot eh Night warrior ritual, we also see a lot of the order in WC3, we read about them in night elf civilziation in WotA. we saw the Cathedral of Eternal night, but it's not as fleshed out as the forest.


We finally got to see Elune 's temples, we see moon symbols, druids, Tyrande and Nightborne/Moonguard casters use moon spells. The clerical side of the order is known though it's detail isn't fleshed out, but it's stated.


We see moon symbols in the new tattoos, and 1 female headpiece and earring option.
Elune is discovered through studying the well, believed to have fashioned the night elves from the well, and we know has some link to their arcane ability.


But they aren't children of the moon.


Way too little role of the actual key namesake, the stars. It is the most mysterious one. Is this the missing link, that connects the above two and the great mysterious pre-sundering culture? Have we seen the least of this because it was most strongly connected to the arcane phile pre-sundering culture, and is a casualty and mystery left for later when both civilization and arcane return and blizz would take a closer look?


The Stars
Here is where the most fundamental part of the night elves is, but the least evidence of shown. This core part of the night elves is still very mysterious running deeper than nature, Elune, the arcane but tied to all of these. But it's cultural significance, relevance and presence is sorely lacking in NElf content and material.


I do kinda feel cheated every time I delve into the night elves and see more about the forest than the stars or moon or night - and really hope they fix this.


Evidence of stars in Night elves so far

• Greeting/farewell emote "stars guide you"
• Star spells priests, druids, mages associated with the kaldorei which we see NPCs cast and use
• We know they kept their identity children of the stars defined them in the pre-sundering era, and didn't shift during the long vigil, so it is something, which like the night ties to both their arcane and nature halves, even though it's strongly connected to arcane casting and knowledge.
• We know their cities built astrological towers, but nothing is fleshed out.
• Hints of some sort of star/celestial facet to their religion, but details are scarce, even Elune worship details are limited despite her prominence.
• Druid balance spec class spells - as the only kaldorei culture based class, it's here they showed that star part of the kaldorei into game mechanics.

Trivia: Why we see star spells only on the druid class
The druid class' (the only class based on kaldorei culture even though they are credited with developing the mage and demon hunter classes too) balance spec spells is our biggest in-game mechanics features that shows this - which is ironic since the stars are associated with their arcane half/talent more predominant to the priesthood and night elven arcane users like the Highborne and Moonguard. But it's because night elf priests and mage class in game are not designed on the kaldorei root versions but the human versions and humans and their high elf teachers don't have this strongly in their culture or Holy Light religion it is missing in the in-game classes unless they introduce class racial spells. Druids were based on the kaldorei so have this. But NPC night elf priests and mages are shown to have star spells.


I want to know more Character customisation has nothing about, save maybe the 1 diamond pendant added for neck pieces. This central theme is completely missing, and often ignored showing more forest love or elune love, but not the stars.

What I imagine
So I've had to use my imagination so far thinking of as many ways this can apply to night elves and culture, and assume/hope it will be fleshed out more. So if we are going by what the name implies, here are some "I wonder ifs" I can think of, that might apply to night elves?

• Their star love is the most basic and fundamental to them
• The night elves fell in love with trees because it helped bring them closer to the stars.
• Arcane love may be genetic, but was the motivation for delving into the arcane was reaching and calling the stars - hence why the 3 major kaldorei classes from the beginning mage, druid and priest can all call down stars?
• Night elf names are based on star charts
• Night elves roles and professions are foretold by star seers and are organised on that path based on their star charts
• Night elf cities are built on leylines, but the building configuration and flow is built to match the constellations
• Night elf magical astronomy/astrology is the basis of mage portalling (it's how they discovered and mastered portals)
• Night elves some times magically inscribe their constellation pattern on their bodies and would glow when using arcane magic (fell out of practice amongst the Long Vigil group, but has returned since the ban on arcane practice was lifted).
• The reason their eyes shine silver is because their star love was so big, it somehow lit the arcane power within to reflect the light of the stars
• Night elves love diamonds a lot, because they remind them of stars (but had to do without most of that as one of the many sacrifices the long Vigil demanded, but now it's over it's back in style along with fashion and love for all things purple) - good way to reflect in character creation

Visibly Bringing out more of the Star identity of the Night elves In-Game


So let's look at some practical ways blizz could potentially bring out more of this kaldorei - Children of the STARS identity.


Racials:

• If you ever give an active damage ability racial, let it involve the stars.
• If we ever get class specific racial spells as a feature: having star related abilities across the kaldorei based classes (mage, priest, hunter, DH, rogue) would be good

Character Customisation

• Diamonds - often indications of stars, in jewellery and hence as cultural items should dramatically increase, so more head piece and neck pieces and earrings with stars for females and crescent moons too
• Male head pieces/ear rings can look something like this: especially floating ones like in this image. Could serve as a highborne customisation. https://imgur.com/VbQUtfa
• Notice star effects in hair linked to head pieces too like this image
• https://imgur.com/a/lA7CMa9 colour variants
• Star's tattooed like magical glowing runes on skin, like a custom that some NElves would tattoo their constellation birth on their skin. Even extend the internal arcane power their eyes glow silver with this. Something similar to this.https://i.imgur.com/jDid5OG.png?1
• * Star effect alternative for vines in hair would also be good. The effect could look like this: https://i.imgur.com/nZFTzWu.png?1

Culture references in quests, novels

• Bring this up whenever you go to the night elves from now on,
• In their new city, show the Astrological towers,
• Let's see NPC mage starmancers and Star Augurs (priest/mage cross overs)
• Highborne/Moonguard/Moon Priest NPC casters wielding star/moon spells in combat
• Reference to the stars in birthing, naming rituals
• Night elves told their star and a ritual that inscribes it in them.
• Houses in the new city matching the constellations, personal house, sleeping positions matching the stars
• Magic amplification and drawing from the stars.
• Elune and arcane connection

I feel like this would've been amazing to discuss in the night elf megathread.

[ravenmoon]

Feels like with these thread titles, it's only a coin toss to predict whether ravenmoon or Mace started the thread. Also feels like I need a bingo card for the thread. They're getting seriously repetitive. However, a few points:

a) You started by saying you brought this from official forums. Can you link to the original post? Did you start it or are you just posting someone else's thread over here? ((And if it's someone else, is it Mace?))

Does it really matter? I made it though and copy pasted.

b) In a way, I do agree that the STARS are somewhat missing from the general speech and decoration. However, as Elune is The Moon, I believe ((headcanon, I think - though it might also be said somewhere)) Night Elves see themselves as part of the stars in the sky, with Elune ruling over them. Obviously, in real life, stars are just distant suns and the Moon has no real relevance or effect over them, but it's quite likely Night Elves just see Elune ruling over the sky and the stars. I think that's where the name really comes from.

We are never told really, we only have what we see, they love the stars, they're night based, and they have/do some key things that are related to the stars. But as you have noticed, the moon and the forest, the arcane all seem to have greater significance and importance than the strs - which is what htey're named after. At first it was an exciting mystery you'd hope more would come out of, but nothing does apart from seeing night elf druids, priest and mages seem to be able to cast these spells and they love it.

It's an oversight if you ask me. Just like playing the game you'd hardly notice they're "night" elves, that important distinction is missing, fortunately it isn't in most of the books. But it's worth noting the limitations of the game, and how it would be nice to have more things reflected.

This is why I sometimes feel they don't care, cos sometimes they get it so well, other times it's like they don't have a clue.

c) Depicting stars might be hard (on decorations) as they'd be pentagram-esque and edge too close to real life satanism - perhaps that's why they've avoided it as well? Having moon-jewelry make more sense for Night Elves due to their religion than star-jewelry. I'm not exactly sure whether customization options should include stars in hair or w/e, that derails them from all the official depictions.

I think diamonds are an appropriate representation, afterall when light is bursting off them they twinkle like stars and the stars in the night look like diamonds. So it doesn't have to be pentagram or star of david like depictions, although you can have the latter, diamonds would work especially if they have a glow/sparkle/twinkle effect.

Having both moon and star (diamond) jewellery would work imo.

d) When you think of night elves, you should instead think of Elune, Druidism, Sentinels as the three core aspects of the race. Mages are a remnant of the past and if you had to have four keywords, the fourth would be Mages/Arcane. I'm not sure why you're hellbent on eschewing the Sentinel/warrior part of the Night Elves, when they are a huge part of them right now, larger than the Highborne/Arcanists, equally as large as Sisterhood or Druidic factions.

that depends on what you like most or are most familiar. If you only played wow, druid will come to mind most, if you played WC3, probably sentinel would come to mind the most.

If you're a huge Illidan fan, demon hunters would come to mind. if you read the books, all 6 of them, especially the first 3, mages and the arcane pre-sundering era, the highborne, things like that would make a lasting impression, and that would spring to mind alongside druid. You won't fail to notice the highborne of 1.1, or 4.0 nor the huge effect of that side of the night elves in Legion.

They're all important core parts I'd say.

e) In general - I think the Star part falls under the Moon - Elune. The religion. They don't need explicit distinction from Elune, because the religion already covers the stars. Something something Kaldorei made in the shape of Elune something something children of the stars something something it's the same thing.

I suspect this, except they give us so little info, it's all related to the arcane and their enlightenment. I mean they discover Elune when they start studying the well. They refer to the planet's landmass as Kalimdor bsed on titan words, and themselves based on relation to the stars, which we know they love at least, and clearly look to - except how and in what way and the extent is not shown.

We have astrology towers dominating their cities, image of Zn'Azshari in 8.1 warbringers shows the star constellation roofs, constellation in the walls of suramar along with the crescent moon symbols. There is clearly a lot more to it, however we do know warcraft is very thin sometimes on culture and detail.

to me your name is the core thing that defines you, it holds special significance, one must wonder how important a role this was planned to have, but sort of got left by the wayside when certain details were expanded. One thing for sure is that we can look forward to something.

f) I do agree that the Priests in game follow a more humanized version of the class identity and I'd love to see a reskin to match the racial/cultural identities more. Not just with Night Elves, but other races too. In Vanilla, Priests had a Lunar Shard ability or smth, and I'd much rather see the Star spells moved to Priest class rather than Balance Druid. That way, we can do away with the boring cosmic wankery of Balance Druid and instead have it focus on the forest part of Night Elves solely. Using vines and wind and Nature energy to your offensive and defensive needs is more interesting than what they have now without much explanation how it works for Druids.

Priests had starshard ability, it is clear star spells are linked to racial identity, which is why they cross them over to the druid. They don't make sense much on the druid because htey're never explained. Till this day actual balance druid lore isn't explained, just shown. It's pretty self expalnatory, but at least mention and talk over it would be nice.

It appears to be the case because of how the night elves are is the best I can come up with. The cosmic wankery as you put it, is the very stars indication in the fabric of the class. Giving us a snapshot of what classes may look like if they were kaldorei based. I half expect kaldorei racial active spells would all be star/moon spells. Elune, arcane capability and nature love is common in ALL night elves regardless of devoation. And it seems the stars is linked/relates to all 3 of these simultaenously.

Elune via the moon that always has a plethora of stars in a night sky, the arcane the night elves are made from and hold innate ability is the energy power used to call down and reflected by the stars, who you can consider to be a part of nature in a broader sense. But you do make a point of druidism being more forest based, which is why the celestial focus hints at more i'd love an explanation for.

It'd also be much more interesting for Night Elven mages to have actual Star spells to create a distinction, but I'm not sure where those would fit in, hence why I'd rather have it be a thing for Priests. You could even reskin the Shadow spec to depict the more offensive part better - remember how Tyrande intimidated Saurfang in Darkshore? ((She totally should've just slain him there.)) Mind Flay could be similar to the Lunar Shard which was also channeled and other spells can be changed in a similar way.

Agreed. I have felt for a while that the star/moon spells are an are of focus that could make the Night elf and Nightborne magecraft quite distinct from the more forst based human/high elf and the fire based blood elf. Void elves can have like a void version of each void frost, void fire where I imagine this dark cosmos sparkled purple interwoven with pure pure or frost. The void seems more dark cosmos while the night more star bright cosmos.

If they ever do racial spelsl for classes or just give races a bunch of racial spells they can either use in addition to their class abilities or a substitute, star/moon spells would be the way to go for night elves. If they ever give race specific versions of classes with adaptations, we should certainly see the night elf mage and priest modified to reflect this aspect a lot more.

but they haven't so far.

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I'm not listening to you because you are completely missing something that is vitally important here: You did not create the NE; Blizzard did. That is why you are coming across as "the crazed fan in the wrong." You are refusing Blizzard's representation of them, which all the negative comments are pointing out in one way or another. So, pot meet kettle as far as not listening.

Ravenmoon, I'm not going to be drawn any longer into this argument. I'm done because it's exhausting. Best wishes to you.

but am I Isilrien? I am discussing it, not refusing it, I also speculate in the hopes of expanding and delving into it further, always quite clear when this is the case in my topics.

In the other topic mace made, is full of discussing what we have about the ngiht elves which is based on what blizzard shows us, not just in the game, but in the novvels too. I happen to count this as lore, many of my horde quarrelers do not. They've admitted it several times if you read the topics. "The novels aren't canon" one says, "they aren't relevant" the other says. "only screen time depictions" count says a 3rd, "no one cares" another says.

These are largely coming from Belf fans who'd rather not discuss the night elves but tell me only what they view them to be, almost as if they are the ones very determined to show night elves only as that one narrow description. Why is it htey are the only ones that have a problem with a side of the night elves clearly evident in their story and lore?

this is what blizzard wrote for them. I didn't give them all that back story, I didn't make them from the well of Eternity, and give them internal arcane power nor aptitude, i didn't make them great sorcerors and masters that birth all other elven races, nor did I give them Highborne, a pre-sundering civilization, cities, nor the forest, sentinels, Elune and linked to the well of eternity etc.

So much information and detail of the night elves is actually there and relates to these parts of them, if my bros and I bring them out, surely these guys should be listening.. but no they're not, the lore itself is irrelevant in the light of their points. only the way they see night elves, as primitive , savage forest folk matters. and they say as much.

Just because i write essays, doesn't mean my points and observations are not valid. ofc , people have to read them first. And I suspect theye're too lazy too, but all to quick to criticise a persons first few sentences or force their opinion rather than discuss. I almost never get directly answered to the plethora of points i make, usually it's the one statement here that contradicts their elf view that they harp on. I mean, check it out, you'll see

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...idn-t-Consider

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I feel like this would've been amazing to discuss in the night elf megathread.

Meh, I did post there I think, they're just not talking much. Thalassians are far more interesting in general to them. Notice these topics are only this large because a bunch of horde fans disagree on night elves being anything more than forest feral savages. Notices how most of their objections are objecting to any point about night elves being great magic users, or having a civilization side, or being meaningful outside a forest - complete denial only on those points. like they can't bear night elves being anything else - and I have come to bleievve it's some weird horde protecting thing. Just like they opposed high elves being playable. They believe elven magic, elven cities and high elves belong to the horde only and that it is their right to defend them for there.

no amount of logic or lore indicating otherwise matters..watch them deny night elves have arcane ability or magic - often in the face of evidence harping on how low the numbers are (which they fabricate given we have no idea how many there are).. because they oppose this feeling that such treasures are only for their chosen faction.

So those threads are insanely hit on, with one purpose only, anything that is not forest/feral or savage connected to the night elves, destroy it, and force it through, and they are the majority on these boards and reddit. The hardcore playing population is overwhelmingly horde, it's all they care about and what they talk most about, therefore fan sites are usually heavily biased towards them and developers are influenced by what they want, failing to hear the silent majority.

But this is what you get when you pump one faction up so much. They will have to make the alliance races attractive again and meaningful for any of this to shift.

[Mace]

This is exactly what happened to the kaldorei, they did nothing, and then all people could think of them was as forest elves, so new devs came in with that ijpression and their iddntity was lost. And my problem with them in the horde is the failure of the development of the identity of the Nightborne as the night elven mutated highborne group they are. We’ve just seen them as purple blodoe lves so far, they lack anything kaldorei feeling about them.

But was it though? Suramar and the Nightborne are a pretty accurate portrayal of the kaldorei empire night elves, and Legion does a fantasitic job, so I don’t think it’s as lost as you feel.

I refuse to be egged into playing this "night elves are forest elves" game. I've done my best to show a wider scope of the night elves as portrayed in the actual blizzard lore for the race. it is what it is, until it is ruled no longer canon, it's the canon you should accept - regardless of what naysayers do.

For all their posturing and crying, nothing is stopping you from quite lore based playing a highly gifted night elven highborne sorcerer if that's what you want - it's full on within the night elf lore capacity, and you have leading night elven sorcerors like Azshara, Illidan, Farondis, Evenshade in your court, regardless of what the situation looks like for the night elves in game.

The same goes for playing a night elf druid, a night elf female hunter or warrior, a night elf demon hunter - these all have iconic roles in night elf lore regardless of whether they're the most popular or not.

And if you like the horde, you can step into a Nightborne instead. It's a shame you can't be a Nightborne druid, but you can be a Priestess of Elune, you can play your Nightborne as old school kaldorei or a more an "under-the-shield" born and bred Nightborne excited about new things and the horde. Up to you.

The identity as children of the stars has nothing really do with all that, and is routed in what the Night elves and by extension the Nightborne can be fleshed out properly in greater detail. There are certain very important details that are obvious and would stand out in life, that won't make a video game portrayal because video games have a focus even in their model version of the world they are portraying. Problem is books are written for the sole purpose of the game, and so don't tend to step outside the limited boundaries of the game, not breathing life into the world.

Fans like us tend to want more from Warcraft, understandable if you've been around it for long, you probably picked up all the basics and necessary info in the first few months of playing (pending on how into it you got), you are going to want much more when you love a fantasy like that. It's natural to start asking or demanding more, but also understand that they're not unlimited, and their refusal to branch out into other media types is going to fully limit what they produce and how much they can meaningfully expand their world.

But for a strategy game, they've come really far. Could have gone a lot further, still can, but if they choose not to, I mean they've far exceeded their initial expectations now haven't they. Enjoy what you can about it, and invent new things if they can't be bothered to.

[Jackstraw]

Will sum some of the usual points of discussion:

It would be overtly nice for the entirety of the elven race to see their forefathers, the Kaldorei, get some of that Arcane reintegrated into their society. And yes, the game seldom reflects important changes in culture.

There's two major factors to consider:
first, it's been ten thousand years of no arcane. It's so much time days would feel like water, so I'm guessing some (like Maiev) might be resistant at the very least.
We're seeing it firsthand with some of the social movements in the real world.

second, Tyrande at the moment is the leader of the race and much hinges on her choices, much like how the Forsaken were dependant on whatever Sylvanas would have done in BfA.

On a pretty unrelated note:
The Darkshore cinematic is a masterpiece, with the music building up to the Nightsong delivery. Amazing. Almost made me reroll Night Elf on the spot.

[ravenmoon]

Will sum some of the usual points of discussion:

It would be overtly nice for the entirety of the elven race to see their forefathers, the Kaldorei, get some of that Arcane reintegrated into their society. And yes, the game seldom reflects important changes in culture.

There's two major factors to consider:
first, it's been ten thousand years of no arcane. It's so much time days would feel like water, so I'm guessing some (like Maiev) might be resistant at the very least.
We're seeing it firsthand with some of the social movements in the real world.

second, Tyrande at the moment is the leader of the race and much hinges on her choices, much like how the Forsaken were dependant on whatever Sylvanas would have done in BfA.

On a pretty unrelated note:
The Darkshore cinematic is a masterpiece, with the music building up to the Nightsong delivery. Amazing. Almost made me reroll Night Elf on the spot.

It would be nice and I'm a druid fan.

However dont you think this movement started in cata, and the problem is screentime for it, because we are shown signs of a resurgence of the arcane amongst the main group and told it, but nothing else powerfully showing. In Legion most of the visual part for that very arcane side and group is shown in the sub race which is later in 7.3.5/8.0 cut off from interacting beneficially with the main race, and it doesnt have to be that way even if they are on the other faction.

My conclusion is they either develop that side equally well on the kaldorei alliance or develop it on the nightborne and link night elf development to it, sort of like a friendship or corporation for the preservation of the race, in this case we get Highborne, balance druids and Moon Priestesses spending more time with the Nightborne and they sort of operate like a race that has affiliations to the two factions.

In the second scenario the factions would become a secondary priority to a night elf group that decides to prioritise strengthening and rebuilding themselves and operate globally in the capacity of world defenders than faction sidekicks.

The night elves have taken a huge step towards this, you can see them not tied to the alliance as strongly. No sign of the Nightborne though, but the level of loyalty to the horde should not be anywhere strong as any of the other races, they should be the least attached having owed the alliance just as much and having kin their too, not to mention only the blood elves are their true friends, and those elves arent even that caught up in the horde.

So it shouldnt be hard to see them not view loyalty the same way, but it would have to be a development pursued by blizz

[Selastan]

Yeah, Nightborne took all that.

Personally, I think Blizzard has big arc going on for the night elves, and it is going to revolve around them separated from Elune and becoming traditional 'Wood Elves'. No idea who or what Elune is exactly, but I'm pretty sure she is going to be a baddy at some point, and Tyrande and her night elves are going to be center to that plot.

[Mace]

Yeah, Nightborne took all that.

Personally, I think Blizzard has big arc going on for the night elves, and it is going to revolve around them separated from Elune and becoming traditional 'Wood Elves'. No idea who or what Elune is exactly, but I'm pretty sure she is going to be a baddy at some point, and Tyrande and her night elves are going to be center to that plot.

Probably, i hope they don't though. Farstriders seem to capture that wood elf vibe really well, and no one has a problem thinking them as part of a larger whole.

So one must ask why people, struggle so hard to think of night elves as anything outside forest elves? I think partly it's because horde elf fans are nasty and vindictive about pidgeon holing night elves there as some warped reasoning of "protecting" the magical and civilization elven portrayals on them (totally un-necessary as the night vibe is different) but bliard made the situation worse by making nightborne go horde, so hordies now feel anything elven that is magical and civilization belongs to them, including night elf stuff shown via the Nightborne, making their insistence of labelling night elves as forest elves more persistent.

As such, neutrals, even some Nelf fans have bought in to their view, despite me and a some others constantly point out there is more to night elves than what they conclude, and there is evidence in game too which they minimise and overlook.

Blizzard is partially to blame because the early days of warcraft failed to show much of the night elven civilization, demon hunters, highborne and oher parts, mostly residing in books but not in the game. And when in game, the portrayal was lame. Can you imagine if Dire Maul was presented more like Suramar was, and you saw the Shen'dralar in magical action like the Nightborne? Whether it was just a patch and part of a re-write of the starting zones, you wuld never think of night elves only as forest elves.



The sad thing is the wood elf trope, like the high elf one should not be a thing of its own, it's too over used. It's fine as a part of a race like the farstriders but it should be an expression common amongst elves rather than a category or faction.

This is part of what makes warcraft elves unique. In the night elves, basing them on the stars and night rather than the dark specifically has potential for a lot more growth. The forest elf section through the druids has a unique magical output not usually seen, before you fall back to the traditional hunter/warrior which also has another twist in being dominated by females (which comes from the dark elf vibe mixed in with DC comics Amazonians).

But for what they represent leaving it there is too flippant, and short sighted, not to mention fails to carve out a truly unique elven presentation. IF you add the half demonic Illidari, and the grand Highborne and kaldorei civilization side, the fabled Moon Priestesses and Moonguard - you are looking at much broader package unique in its night setting under a star lit canopy.

Start weaving the stars and moon into their culture, philisophy and as a symbolic religion, and you get a very unique and interesting pacakage.

Give up and just lump into wood elves, might make some horde fans happy, but it's a massive loss for them, choosing a trope over something unique doesn't help their image, and then anyone reading their lore and works, would see the earlier grander vision and all the ground work in the lore and wonder, hey - what they do with this? This is much more interesting, and lose respect for them.

All because they failed to recognise what they had, then listened to a bunch of fans who get jealous and petty , don't care about the overall vision, only what their biased half gets, not realising thier comments aren't genuine night elf interest focused, but largely base don prompiting and ensuring their factionelves have the cool things they like.

[Jackstraw]

Start weaving the stars and moon into their culture, philisophy and as a symbolic religion, and you get a very unique and interesting pacakage.

I think, and I'd like your point of view on this, it's just a matter of strict representation.

Little premise: I'm a designer. So I tend to notice certain things.

If you get to a Blood Elf outpost, any given outpost, you just know you're in one. Unless it's some undercover business the red and gold of the children of the sun is immediately apparent.
Now, by memory, if you get to a Night Elf outpost you see a couple moonwells, but the Kaldorei have no leading unity whatsoever, not even druidism, that's properly displayed and gives them a visual a-ha.

Think of silver and blue, the lion crests for Humans. Think of spikes and jagged metal of the Orcs.

Wouldn't it just work to have the Kaldorei being pushed in a star and moon direction, a bright white weaving. Think the Nightborne but less purpley heavy timewarping arcane and more delicate harmonious balancey white.

[ravenmoon]

Yeah, Nightborne took all that.

Personally, I think Blizzard has big arc going on for the night elves, and it is going to revolve around them separated from Elune and becoming traditional 'Wood Elves'. No idea who or what Elune is exactly, but I'm pretty sure she is going to be a baddy at some point, and Tyrande and her night elves are going to be center to that plot.

That would be a shame, I much prefer the unique nigh elf, children of the stars with their mixture of a grand arcane legacy/aspect and nature with the common Moon goddess base, and the elite/exclusive demon hunters like, all under a star emphasised setting. It's unique and not been done in this way and should trump over used tropes like wood elves and help bring distinction to how the world of warcraft approaches those elven tropes.

@Mace, anyone who reads the elf topics can instantly see it is predominantly horde fans that have a problem with night elves doing anything outside the forest elf trope (in particular being savage and feral), even amongst those of us like Hellspawn and myself who quite like that side of the kaldorei, there isn't a problem in recognising a good portion of the night elves do other things, and have other focuses. It's horde elf fans mainly that love knocking anything that is outside that narrow bracket. It's so obvious, they constantly and consistently argue against it. Every time. They're not nelf fans or alliance fans, so why so particularly interested = agenda.

But as @Isilrien said, it is not our product, it's theirs, however, I can certainly share what I like most about it, and what I'd like to see more of.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

But as @Isilrien said, it is not our product, it's theirs, however, I can certainly share what I like most about it, and what I'd like to see more of.

Trust me, we have no doubt you will be sharing more of the same things you always say, soon enough.