Min/Maxing and Exclusivity: Idealism vs Realism

[Omedon]

Obsession with fotm, min/max and being best in every possible scenario is a disease, and i am glad devs are trying to root it out.

Amen, and thankfully I don't think it's as widespread a disease in the game as it looks out here among fansites and forums.

I personally am surrounded by people that either a) Hate having "new talents to pick" or b) Are "good enough is good enough" oriented and will 100% pick for concept and aesthetics and will never switch. Like I mean never switch conduits or soulbinds either.

There is a shelf where covenant minutiae will matter but it's not intended for most players, and not intended to be PUG'ed. Blizzard can't and shouldn't address "waaah I'm not FOTM and no one will pick me" because that's a community issue, and letting that toxic element of people "playing where they shouldn't" (PUGing upper level PVE content) drive their development is a game that can't be won. They CAN win the game of curating the difficulties intended for strangers to play together: The queued ones.

ACTUAL upper end players will make the covenant system work. The people that think they belong on that shelf can either do the work or look in a mirror. At that point they can join those of us with reasonable goals who are enjoying ourselves, or quit.

[Jamais]

There is a shelf where covenant minutiae will matter but it's not intended for most players, and not intended to be PUG'ed. Blizzard can't and shouldn't address "waaah I'm not FOTM and no one will pick me" because that's a community issue, and letting that toxic element of people "playing where they shouldn't" (PUGing upper level PVE content) drive their development is a game that can't be won.

Agree.

These people don't understand. Blizzard is fighting that mentality. If Blizzard made all abilities within 1-2% of eachother, someone would still sim the highest one and people would copy.

[Kralljin]

These people don't understand. Blizzard is fighting that mentality. If Blizzard made all abilities within 1-2% of eachother, someone would still sim the highest one and people would copy.

If covenants will be within the 1-2% discrepancy territory, no one would be complaining.

Mind you, the primary concern stems here from Blizzards inability to balance things out, and if you need any explanation why, then the Corruption system has been a good reminder.

But just looking at the abilities will reveal that's not going to be the case.
And that leaves out PvP entirely where certain abilities swing between game deciding and dead button.

Like, everybody is talking about Mythic+ or raiding, but this system shows (similiar to corruption) that Blizzard at this point no longer gives a shit about PvP.

[Orwell7]

I fear what will happen is some Covenants with the "right" Soulbinds get the majority of players, while the others were left in the dust for 2+ years.
Just like some specs.
Just like the majority of talents.

[Dreen]

But just looking at the abilities will reveal that's not going to be the case.
And that leaves out PvP entirely where certain abilities swing between game deciding and dead button.

Like, everybody is talking about Mythic+ or raiding, but this system shows (similiar to corruption) that Blizzard at this point no longer gives a shit about PvP.

This is my main gripe aswell, i play both pvp and pve at a decent level and the fact that im forced to choose between doing well in pve or pvp is just so disheartening, and this isnt something thats tuneable cause the needs are so different in both areas that it has nothing to do with % tuning. (mage for example, Venthyr is very potent in PvP but has almost 0 applicability in a raid encounter unless they change the core spell)
Im fine with having differences in dmg in PvE between ST/AOE or whatever my covenant does better but the fact that the button i chose for pve might be useless in pvp is just sad or vice versa(same goes for multi speccing dead spells)

[Doffen]

Most pug leaders don't care about what power you got anyway, they mostly look at ilvl, achievement and then class/spec. It's just a myth that so many pug leaders look for what corruption, essence and traits you got and if you minmaxed. The average pug leader is too dumb to understand item level doesn't mean shit, but here we are. And this was always the case. I think it was during WoD that there was a leader who wanted all to have the legendary ring, but that's the only one I've met with such requirement, and I have not heard from anyone else that I know get into that issue. But this part is interesting, because a few of those I know don't want to pug in BfA because they feel that their essences/corruption isn't good enough. It's pretty clear people put that requirement on themselves.

P.Ug Lider will not say no to Mister Kyrian "Do it from behind" Rogue just because Mag. E. Necrolord got an ability that do 5% more damage if the rogue is higher up on the damage meta and they already have a mage in the group. I am sure it can happen, but it's not widespread as many people want to believe it is.

[LorDC]

I don't mean to put the min/maxers in a negative light, but I think it's clear that the WoW devs are trying to send a message to said player demographic: Calm down and try to enjoy the game. Optimize your performance to the best of your ability without making the game a chore for yourself and eventually burning out. Just like there is more to life than wealth and power, there is more to WoW than big numbers and world first races. There is nothing wrong with a passion until it becomes an obsession, and the unwillingness to seek moderation in the way people play this game is, in my humble opinion, the symptom of a larger issue with the community as a whole.

You don't mean to put min/maxers in a negative light, and then you do just that by implying that their behavior is bad. No, it isn't. Trying to be good at what you do is part of normal human behavior. There is nothing wrong with it.
Blaming players is never an answer when discussing game design. Games are made for players, not the other way around. It is developers job to anticipate player behavior and build their game accordingly for their maximum enjoyment.

[Krakan]

I think their actions should reflect their words then... there hasn't been a mythic raid cleared without BiS and full powers being needed.

Even now with fully geared raids who have z'noth on farm with full corruptions, gems ,and BiS gear they can only carry a single player.

If each of them played a sub optimal spec the dps difference would make the fight unkillable. If they want to bring choice back they cant make the content so heavily tuned to min max.

[lappee]

I think their actions should reflect their words then... there hasn't been a mythic raid cleared without BiS and full powers being needed.

Even now with fully geared raids who have z'noth on farm with full corruptions, gems ,and BiS gear they can only carry a single player.

If each of them played a sub optimal spec the dps difference would make the fight unkillable. If they want to bring choice back they cant make the content so heavily tuned to min max.

You can easily boost 2 people on N'zoth, 3 with a little planning and maybe 4 if you really, really tryhard.

We're playing some suboptimal specs and some haven't bothered to get "correct" corruptions let alone gems to their gear and yet boosting 1-2 guys is fine all the time.

[Boricha]

It's going to be one of those things where it will have little to no impact on most of the playerbase regardless of whether they are easily swappable or not, while being a brutal grind for high end players. I think many do not realize that high end players needing to grind 16+ hours a day to remain optimal is a relatively recent addition to wow (Legion). Pre-nerf mythic bosses have also been designed around highly optimized characters since Nighthold. If covenants aren't easily swappable then it's going to continue to burn out and turn away people from wow esports.

[Artale]

Their intend is for the covenants to have a marginal difference in terms of performance. Your pick should end up being dependant on personal preference and role.
I'll go with what I like for my character rather than what sims marginally better but makes me not like my character in the long run.

[Krakan]

You can easily boost 2 people on N'zoth, 3 with a little planning and maybe 4 if you really, really tryhard.

We're playing some suboptimal specs and some haven't bothered to get "correct" corruptions let alone gems to their gear and yet boosting 1-2 guys is fine all the time.

I mean maybe 2 if you play very risky and burn a lot of cds on psych...

[Redlikemyrage]

Most of min/maxers aren't real minmaxers anyway.

Maximizing your performance in game starts irl, your diet probably affects your dps more than that +1% dps from that talent.

You wot m8?

[LorDC]

Most of min/maxers aren't real minmaxers anyway.

Maximizing your performance in game starts irl, your diet probably affects your dps more than that +1% dps from that talent.

Not necessarily. Choosing right talent is also much more easy than eating right.

[Marrilaife]

I don't mean to put the min/maxers in a negative light, but I think it's clear that the WoW devs are trying to send a message to said player demographic: Calm down and try to enjoy the game.

They did nothing to curb the obsession to copy top guilds / teams / streamers, worse, they made it more popular by promoting streaming of top end content, giving it publicity, creating events like MDI that have NO RULES curbing meta comps, stacking classes, picking BIS races etc. There is rarely a balancing pass that slaps the people for picking most OP classes in a tier. Usually the worst underdogs get some 3% compensatory buff and it's called a day. For example windwalkers got several buffs and are still weak outside of pvp.

The only thing they are hotfixing during raid progression is abuse that allows to skip some mechanics, for example the immunity on Ra-den or Varimathras, but even that isn't very consistent, it's completely arbitrary will they hotfix a cheese strat week 1, week 3 or never.

They seem to be fine with the notion that some specs are only good for 1 type of content and trash in everything else, and leave meta specs to dominate their niches for years.

On the other hand they seem to have a great echo chamber of fanboys that downplay the problem with the usual "everything is viable" and give distorted examples along the lines "I'm doing fine as a feral druid so everything is fine", meanwhile other people struggle to get into m+ as a feral druid and it's glaringly obvious that even if you can do it, you'd have 10 times easier time getting accepted as a rogue or havoc dh.

They also have very slow pipeline of reacting to feedback, if people reported during PTR something is broken OP (initial infinite starts and echoing void for example), they're so neglectful it goes live in that state, then has to be nerfed later and get outrage from the playerbase "I invested in X and now you're invalidating my time investment".

So people are very justified in worrying about:
- possible imbalances between power level of covenants
- lack of fixing that problem before it goes live
- nerfing OP covenants after it goes live and people already invested in their decision which covenant to roll with
- leaving covenants in a state where if you pick BIS option for let's say excelling as arms warrior in 3v3 pvp you'll be stuck with sub par character for tanking m+ and you have to live with the fact you have to sacrifice your viability in other content to excel in 1 type of content you focus the most on (this is worse than having to carry 3 gear sets in bags)
- being ridiculed by the community for their covenant choice in the same way as people were ridiculed for picking "bad" race or crafting profession for their character

[Super Kami Dende]

People that think the game is all about min-maxing shouldn't affect People that play the Game for a Fun RPG experience.

I'm just sick to death of People crying about miniscule %'s that end up with homogeneous messes because Devs feel they can't have fun choices without the wannabe pseudo-elitists crying constantly about "WAHHHHHHH I CAN'T PLAY WHAT I WANT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME ANOTHER ABILITY DOES .5% MORE DAMAGE THAT I'LL NEVER ACTUALLY PUT TO USE BECAUSE IT IS SIMULATED AND I'M NOT EVEN A GOOD ENOUGH PLAYER TO USE IT TO MY ADVANTAGE ANYWAY WAHHH"

People that complain constantly about minmaxing bullshit should just leave the game and allow fun to actually come back into the game. As an ex-Hardcore raider and player since Vanilla, I'm actually sick of watching this game get destroyed because of these types of People. They've done more damage to the game than "casuals" or Blizzard ever have.

- - - Updated - - -

Not necessarily. Choosing right talent is also much more easy than eating right.

Choosing the "right" talent, doesn't mean you know how to use it effectively.

[Wakozi123]

I think it depends on the type of content you play.

For Mythic Raids min maxing your Covenant is in my opinion necessary. The same goes for M+ above 20 and PvP at a higher rating.

Normal and Heroic Raids won't need that type of min maxing. Keys below 15 are yolo anyways, so why min max? And low rated PvP won't need that type of optimization either.

The problem is that mix maxing won't start with Mythic Raids or M+ above 15. People see the best players in the world use x Covenant and because of that they will do the same. It doesn't matter if your doing Mythic, Heroic or Normal, because people still want to get it done as fast as possible. Not to mention that the majority of the WoW player base is probably just bad at the game. What I would consider to be a difficult key (like lets say a 20 KR during Tyrannical), other people would already consider to be difficult at level 15, for example.

When it comes to min maxing their is always the skill curve of the individual player to consider. And because some people are better than others, you have min maxing at every single level of the game. As simple as that.

[LorDC]

People that think the game is all about min-maxing shouldn't affect People that play the Game for a Fun RPG experience.

I'm just sick to death of People crying about miniscule %'s that end up with homogeneous messes because Devs feel they can't have fun choices without the wannabe pseudo-elitists crying constantly about "WAHHHHHHH I CAN'T PLAY WHAT I WANT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME ANOTHER ABILITY DOES .5% MORE DAMAGE THAT I'LL NEVER ACTUALLY PUT TO USE BECAUSE IT IS SIMULATED AND I'M NOT EVEN A GOOD ENOUGH PLAYER TO USE IT TO MY ADVANTAGE ANYWAY WAHHH"

People that complain constantly about minmaxing bullshit should just leave the game and allow fun to actually come back into the game. As an ex-Hardcore raider and player since Vanilla, I'm actually sick of watching this game get destroyed because of these types of People. They've done more damage to the game than "casuals" or Blizzard ever have.

If you are all for fun RPG experience, go and have it. Choose whatever you want and roll with it. No one is stopping you.

Choosing the "right" talent, doesn't mean you know how to use it effectively.

It also doesn't mean that you don't. Also, not all talents actually require skill to use.

[taishar68]

You may see it as idealism, but dont let Ion fool you - he pushes Covenant design NOT out of idealism.

Ion has to push it because stock holders need the systems that bust /time played metrics, and making Covenants unswappable is an easiest way to force people to stay in the game by grinding Covenants on multiple characters of the same class or even the same spec. You wont believe how much people even semi-casual go and check icy-veins, blood mallet and other sources to get the basics of what is the best way to make their character as strong as possible for their own capabilities to play, was it M+5, +10, +15 or +25.

Players will see that their Ret Pally need Venthyr for PvP, Necrolord for M+ and Night Fae, and maybe their off-spec (Prot) need Kyrian, and they WILL level second paladin so they would be able to be as efficient as Covenant allow them to be.

I think no sane person would think that having full freedom and no pressure from stock holders Ion would design Covenants the same way.

No, in his ideal and obvious version Covenants would be unswappable in terms of cosmetics, questing and shit, but Covenant Signature ability, Covenant class ability, Soulbinds would be baked into talent rows and Essence-like system. This would let characters be flexible for all types of content, so their class would be fully powered in all three specs for every type of activity (M+, raiding, PvP), without damaging the MUH RPG feel and aesthetic.

They cant do this because classes would be actually fun to play and (maybe) people spend less time playing single enjoyable character rather than playing multiple shitty characters combined.

It would ALSO be explained RPG-wise. Its very easy, really.

During leveling we helped all four Covenants and THATS why they allowed us to borrow their abilities in rest zones. Cosmetics and other stuff, however, is locked out with our 60 level choice.

They cant do it because that way the whole their MUH RPG premise will be destroyed like a house of cards.

Thats it.

Ion isnt an idealist. He have to do what needed for the easiest bust of time players spend with their multiple characters possible.

In my opinion, if someone has this cynical a viewpoint, they should not play this game. I'm not saying you're wrong (I don't think you're right, but who knows?) but I don't think you'll ever get away from thinking every decision is based on $.

[Thetruth1400]

I think it's clear that the WoW devs are trying to send a message to said player demographic: Calm down and try to enjoy the game. Optimize your performance to the best of your ability without making the game a chore for yourself and eventually burning out.

Those two things are contradictions though in an MMO where your performance is what opens up or closes doors to you.

There will be a right choice and 3 wrong choices for every spec in every aspect of the game at any decent level of play.

For casual Joe Schmoe who never steps for outside of Normal raids, a M+5 at highest, a casual battleground, or low level Arenas; sure do what you want, you'll probably be happy and find other people who enjoy that style of gameplay.

The reality is though, that's not what the majority of people want, which is to be able to do things relatively easy and pushing a bit more and more. If that wasn't what was wanted, the game wouldn't be designed around that.