Do people actually believe that RPG means story and cosmetic only?

[ClassicPeon]

You say that, but I am a warlock with plenty of 17-19s done in time, yet I rarely get invited to 15s on pugs, managed to do most keys with friends. Usually the reply is 'you are a warlock' or 'I'd prefer a dh/rogue/bm/unholy dk', basically anything that is spammed in MDI. And this is from someone who averages 100-160k overall dps, interrupts with felhunter, purges with fel hunter, stuns regularly with shadowfury, uses demonic circle to dodge movement attacks (like king's rest last boss leap) and usually 0 deaths in a dungeon.

And you are telling me that even though I offer that, and I crush nearly anyone I meet in pugs, to the point that I've been told sometimes 'are you playing legion or bfa?' by fellow pugs due to pulling 500k-1mil dps on some packs, and get declined for it, people who find venthyr teleport to be able to skip some super hard trash on X dungeon won't be more desired than your owl servant from bastion? Please. I get that this is not your fault if it will come down to this, but even the worst players follow the meta. Usually, it's even the worst players who are so fixated on the meta for even easy content, because they have no clue that classes outside meta can be viable too on non bleeding edge content.

Well prefering a melee in the party if its full of ranged is pretty standard. Thats nothing to do with class specificly but to do with the difference between melee and ranged in m+(specificly interrupts).

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I might be misremembering it's been 15 years but you just train it from a instructor at least from what I recall.

No. You havent played baldurs gate. Or any other actual rpg. Sorry

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Nope. An RPG requires character progression, i.e. in-game choices that shape your character both in powers and story, visuals aid immersion so they are a nice bonus.

Gear with stats and skill points is the cheapest way to achieve that. The easiest way. But you don't need them for RPG.

Combat is just one of many kinds of obstacles a character might overcome to progress. It is not required for RPG. It's just the easiest - two options auto-choice - you either win or lose. The easiest way to determine that is actually by a dice roll - you don't need "stats". You don't need to die if you lose - you just go on an alternative storyline - or respawn (like in WoW).

In WoW you have classes that have stealth and thus can avoid most of the combat - that's RPG level choice - the player chooses how they deal with potential combat. If they avoid combat - they lose XP and loot, but save time and repair costs plus they get to experience the role they want. Combat resolution is not much of a choice in and of itself.

Interesting.

Since RPG isnt an officially defined word. Where are you getting:

An RPG requires character progression

from?

I mean i know where you are getting it from, but where do you thnk you are getting it from.

[Azerate]

People believe whatever fits their current state of needs and feelings. "Rpg aspect" is just another slogan used to argue in favor of what you think should be in the game vs. what you think shouldn't be in the game.

[ClassicPeon]

People believe whatever fits their current state of needs and feelings. "Rpg aspect" is just another slogan used to argue in favor of what you think should be in the game vs. what you think shouldn't be in the game.

Thats the problem with RPG's. Some people think it has an actual defined meaning. And that its their own personal opinion of the word thats somehow this officially defined meaning.

[ClassicPeon]

Here we are living in a society that tries (and mostly fails) to teach people NOT to judge, to ACCEPT those who are different etc and we get a game that preaches day and night that if you are not as same as the next guy and if you do not obey the community standards as set by arbitrary systems you do not belong in that community and you can be ostracized/humiliated and more.

Best part, the game literally TEACHES this behavior to children and teenagers. Don't be different because optimal. Optimal might mean like 100 dps more at times but hey we cannot have someone standing out and being different let alone having fun playing their way. No sir. Rest assured this behavior and mentality in games finds its way into real life.

WoW is PG 13. Aroudn that time you have to(at least where i am from) start dealing with some of the realities of life - like grades not being the same for everyone etc.
Being thought that you should try and be the best you can be isnt the worst thing that can happen in the western world of offense takenism atm.

[AeneasBK]

Story IS and always has been the most important part of an RPG.

I disagree entirely, 2 of the most popular RPGs (WoW, Skyrim) had an irrelevant (main) storyline.

[ClassicPeon]

I disagree entirely, 2 of the most popular RPGs (WoW, Skyrim) had an irrelevant (main) storyline.

How is wow's story irrelevant compared to any other rpg?

[AeneasBK]

How is wow's story irrelevant compared to any other rpg?

Maybe in the last few expansions there is nothing to do but play through the main storyline of the game but for a decade or so the "main story" made up about 0.1% of the game. It's not like ICC had a different ending every time you defeated Arthas :P

[Elim Garak]

Interesting.

Since RPG isnt an officially defined word. Where are you getting:

from?

I mean i know where you are getting it from, but where do you thnk you are getting it from.

There's a definition of RPG used by RPG makers, I don't even know what you mean by "official", RPG makers are as official as it gets. Character progression stems from the word game. Roleplaying alone is just acting in a play - everything is known as it is written, you don't participate in any progression - you just play it out. The game allows interactivity and thus choices and the only way the choices can be interesting and meaningful - is if they have consequences for the character - that's progression.

[vitor210]

Watching the Preach interview with Ion I find it baffling that the high end community seem to believe that RPGs are only about the story and how you look. Building your character doesn't even seem to factor into it at all for those people.

For me (and a lot of other people I would assume) the most important part of any RPG is to build your character and I haven't played a lot of them where you completely change your entire play style every 5 minutes. A lot of RPGs give you the ability to respec sure but it's at least cumbersome and at the most a pretty lengthy process. In some RPGs starting over and trying out a different build even adds longevity to the game.

I don't understand why they keep on ignoring that part and have gotten it into their heads that not being able to change absolutely everything on the fly is anti RPG.

literally 99% of the community cares only about numbers and efficiency, and "building their characters" as you say. The players like me that care only for RPG, story and immersion (which IS the actual basis of a game that calls itself an MMORPG) are a dying breed

[LorDC]

Here we are living in a society that tries (and mostly fails) to teach people NOT to judge, to ACCEPT those who are different etc and we get a game that preaches day and night that if you are not as same as the next guy and if you do not obey the community standards as set by arbitrary systems you do not belong in that community and you can be ostracized/humiliated and more.

Best part, the game literally TEACHES this behavior to children and teenagers. Don't be different because optimal. Optimal might mean like 100 dps more at times but hey we cannot have someone standing out and being different let alone having fun playing their way. No sir. Rest assured this behavior and mentality in games finds its way into real life.

And that demonstrates the problem of our society. It doesn't matter what you teach or declare: when people face reality they'll throw all your teachings out of the window and do what is actually working.

[ClassicPeon]

Maybe in the last few expansions there is nothing to do but play through the main storyline of the game but for a decade or so the "main story" made up about 0.1% of the game. It's not like ICC had a different ending every time you defeated Arthas :P

There is a difference between replayable content and saying the story doesnt matter.
I know for a fact that the story of especially ICC mattered to some people.

Now its true that lots probably dont really care and think its shit. Some dont though

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Well you don't learn that in game. In game you learn that you are not allowed to be different or you will have no place in groups/guilds etc. You cannot play the race you like because racials matter. You cannot focus on what you enjoy because that is not what your community enjoys. In fact players are actively taught how to segregate others and how to do it in a politically correct way. They learn to pass judgement on others for anything even when not asked. They learn to have a say on the game of others.

Move those analogies in life and tell me how it works out.

Why?

What do you think makes that destinction besides fitting your agenda?

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There's a definition of RPG used by RPG makers, I don't even know what you mean by "official", RPG makers are as official as it gets. Character progression stems from the word game. Roleplaying alone is just acting in a play - everything is known as it is written, you don't participate in any progression - you just play it out. The game allows interactivity and thus choices and the only way the choices can be interesting and meaningful - is if they have consequences for the character - that's progression.

No there isnt. Almost every single RPG is different from the next.

I knew you where talking oput your ass though, you didnt have to out yourself completely. Hence the

I mean i know where you are getting it from, but where do you thnk you are getting it from.

[AeneasBK]

Now its true that lots probably dont really care and think its shit.

Precisely. The line "Story IS and always has been the most important part of an RPG" is demonstrably false.

[ClassicPeon]

Precisely. The line "Story IS and always has been the most important part of an RPG" is demonstrably false.

Agree. But mostly thats because RPG isnt a defietively defined term. So anyone saying "RPG IS THIS" is demonstrably false

[Echocho]

Agree. But mostly thats because RPG isnt a defietively defined term. So anyone saying "RPG IS THIS" is demonstrably false

Well you can but you probably have to list a whole bunch of things and you never need all those things in a RPG but you need a bunch of them. If you remove everything but the story then you have a Telltale Game.

[Elim Garak]

T
No there isnt. Almost every single RPG is different from the next.

Yes, there is. Every RPG adheres to it. The fact that different games are different is like... DUH. Great argument.

[ClassicPeon]

Yes, there is. Every RPG adheres to it. The fact that different games are different is like... DUH. Great argument.

Its almost like you are agreeing with me but still holding on to your opinion.

There literally isnt an official definition of what it means to be an rpg.

This is getting embarassing

[Elim Garak]

Its almost like you are agreeing with me but still holding on to your opinion.

There literally isnt an official definition of what it means to be an rpg.

This is getting embarassing

Since there is a definition - I understand why you might feel embarrassed. It's hard admitting being wrong.

[KaPe]

Do people realize there are Roleplaying servers in WoW? You know, places where you can live out your actual fantasy of "being" in fantasy universe, without worrying about those evil min-maxers ruining your day? Where your "choices" can go beyond actual video game limitations, so you can create an entire backstory that's completely different from the official canon of "Champion of Azeroth, Class Hall leader etc." Surely this would be a paradise for everyone who desire something more than a numbers game and want to get truly immersed in this fictional world.

And yet, somehow, this is only done by a miniscule amount of people - and others only "interact" with it by laughing at Goldshire ERP and believing RP players to be freaks. Could it be that "role playing" isn't really all that important for the vast majority of players? Perhaps some of them only use it as an argument against "elitists" instead of truly believing it would change the game for better?

[ClassicPeon]

Since there is a definition - I understand why you might feel embarrassed. It's hard admitting being wrong.

1. Where?
2. Who decides what the definition of a RPG is?
3. Link to wikipedia and you instalost this

[Elim Garak]

1. Where?
2. Who decides what the definition of a RPG is?
3. Link to wikipedia and you instalost this

Game developers decide what is or is not RPG. They are the ones making them.

Who are you to set rules?
There's nothing to win here for me. I'm fine with you believing that there's no definition or that it's wrong. It is irrelevant. If you can demonstrate how RPG in "your" definition (and you need to tell us your definition) requires stats on loot - that would be awesome. If you don't - and you don't want me to explain to you what RPG is - just stop replying to me. It's that easy.