Faction Identity

[Kwento]

And? Having the same model means nothing, what a shallow and superficial view. Plenty of lore races are praised as interesting and cool despite sharing the model of a playable race, such as the san'layn or man'ari eredar. Name me another Alliance race that is shadowy while elegant at the same time. Oh wait, you can't.

Yes..? I can... Night Elves always had a mysterious vide about them. Rogues, shadows in the trees of Ashenvale, silent archers.
Apart from that, you haven’t said simply “unique”, you’ve said that they are “unique looking”. And they are anything but, I’m sorry.

[Varodoc]

Yes..? I can... Night Elves always had a mysterious vide about them. Rogues, shadows in the trees of Ashenvale, silent archers.
Apart from that, you haven’t said simply “unique”, you’ve said that they are “unique looking”. And they are anything but, I’m sorry.

Night elves are not elegant at all. Several people in-universe pointed out how night elves are savage and unrefined, such as Grommash and Elisande.

When I say "elegant and shadowy", I am referring to aesthetics. So why are you even mentioning the fact that I said "unique-looking"? I know very well what I said.

They are neon purple dyed blood elves infused with hentai tentacle god fuel.

No other Horde race is infused with Void energy.

[Hellspawn]

We have a prime example, which are still the undead, since blizz once made an official statement, that night elves in general are indeed racist towards undead, with the example of death nights. Night elf death night will be shunned and despised by their people, simply for what they are.

Other instances are scattered across the story here and there, cementing this trend and unless it changes Tyrande herself will continue it by laying blame on Calia come shadowlands, despite her having absolutely nothing to do with it all.

Racism is pretty easily defined, if you act on prejudice you are already racist. Racism is not just about superiority complexes.

Calia represents the Forsaken which blighted Darkshore. Tyrande says "your people" which are the Forsaken

We have a prime example, which are still the undead, since blizz once made an official statement, that night elves in general are indeed racist towards undead, with the example of death nights. Night elf death night will be shunned and despised by their people, simply for what they are.

Undead is not even a race, its a state. When they are undead they don't stop to be an undead elf or an undead human. It is a unnatural state per definition. And despite that statement which was from a short story, Shandris and Maiev show compassion towards one of them. So how reliable is that statement?

Racism is pretty easily defined, if you act on prejudice you are already racist.

Thats not true, prejudice is having opinions that is not based on reason or actual experience. Which is not true in this case as I have shown before.

Also if you are prejudice against a organization, you are not racist either.

[Super Dickmann]

This is the right thread to repeat my longstanding theory that Varodoc actually hates void elves far more than any of us and this is part of a long form effort to turn even more people against them. I point you to his Yrel account that went on about how void and orcs were the devil as Exhibit A.

[Vaedan]

snip

Well, let's agree to disagree.

I wrote in several posts that I understand both perspectives. I wrote that since orcs had no knowledge of elves in Ashenvale, you can't blame them for going to the forest and starting lumbering here. I don't even blame them when they fought back the elves, because elves were indeed agressive here. You said that elves could have behaved differently, and to that point I told you that orcs could reacted differently as well. To sum up, given their first contact, both races could have handled the situation better, no side was particularly flawless and both sides had their valid reason to act how they did.

What I find absurd are Horde fans blaming elves that they defend their land... and yes, it was clearly not that harmless lumber harvesting as you suggest, otherwise, Cenarius would not intervened, so it is obvious that orcs were destructive and because of that, they earned the agression from elven part.

You can also deny the fact that orcs are obviously corrupted and you have to be blind to not see that. Elves encountered demons before and witnessed beings corrupted by demons. At that point, we can also agree to disagree.

You are wrong that elves joined the Alliance because of orcs. It may factored in their decision, but they joined Alliance because they realized that after powers waned following Nordrassil's destruction, they need allies if they want to rejoin the world affairs. That is reasonable rationale and Alliance matched their values way better then the Horde I guess, Warsong orcs harvesting lumber in Ashenvale did not help either. I still wait for you to prove your claim that orcs made attemps to improve their standings with elves, so far I haven't seen anything. Orcs just maintained their attitude "orc wants, orc takes", which resulted in elves being pissed on them and not willing to trade with them.

We don't really have any detailed timeline of events of the period between WC3 and WoW, which causes pretty different interpretations. It could be easily orcs deforesting the Ashenvale and elves deciding to not trade with them because of that, or it could have been elves deciding to not trade with orcs and orcs deciding to began their operations in Ashenvale because of that. I suspect Blizzard did not clarified these events intentionaly, so they can use there different interpretations in their storytelling to drive faction conflicts in the future. If you have any other information, I'll be happy if you provide me with a source, I will update my knowledge on that matter then, but until that time, we can once again, agree to disagree.

But even all these things considered, it is still orcs invading territory of elves while they had other alternatives. You know, even in the Warsong Gulch page, it's stated that Horde shamans and Thrall himself disapproved of the Warsong actions in Ashenvale:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warsong_Gulch

Despite disagreements from Thrall and the shamans, some orcs have remained in the vicinity, continuing their deforestation to fuel the Horde's expansion.

So you can clearly see that some of the orcs felt their presence in Ashenvale inapropriate.

I also need to correct you on your claim that elves used Alliance to help them in their fights - they defended their forest by themselves from classic to cata, with small presence of draenei since TBC. There was no Alliance presence in Ashenvale other then two human paladins at Maethystra Post, but that's it. All quests here and in most zones of Kalimdor show almost exclusively elves and other races were somewhat rare. They got help from humans and gilneans in cata-era books, we see later in game that elves stand the defense of Ashenvale mostly by themselves, not aided by other races notable. Most notable help they got from human was opening of second front in Barrens to divide Horde army. I also don't see anything bad that Varian came to help elves while they faced attack from combined Horde forces. At least he was a king who realized that you should be helping your allies while they are facing attack.

[Minikin]

Maybe he should have done something about a Pit Lord general walking around Ashenvale and pissing in health fountains.

made me LoL.

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@Hellspawn @Vaedan you are wasting your breath on @Syegfryed . The faction bias in there is so strong it alone could propel blizzard to give us MoP 3.0. He has copied @Wildberry 's signature but has none of his debating abilities, its just one buzzword after another.

[Kwento]

Night elves are not elegant at all. Several people in-universe pointed out how night elves are savage and unrefined, such as Grommash and Elisande.

When I say "elegant and shadowy", I am referring to aesthetics. So why are you even mentioning the fact that I said "unique-looking"? I know very well what I said.

Yes..? You’ve said “They are the most unique-looking race in the game.”. I’m sure you know what you’ve said, but considering that you’ve turned it into a question, I felt like giving a quote isn’t a bad idea.
Elisande was a racist Legion supporter, she isn’t credible enough to take her opinions at face value.
Nigh elf elegance could easily be seen in their artwork, architecture and culture. Denying it is a little silly, to be honest.
Look, I know that you are smitten by the void elf look. I can see why you would think that, even if I don’t share that opinion, but... Unique-looking? Moreover “the most unique-looking race in the game”? No.

[Dellis0991]

Night elves are not elegant at all. Several people in-universe pointed out how night elves are savage and unrefined, such as Grommash and Elisande.

When I say "elegant and shadowy", I am referring to aesthetics. So why are you even mentioning the fact that I said "unique-looking"? I know very well what I said.



No other Horde race is infused with Void energy.

They are merely a anomaly, they crossed the thin line between curiosity and stupidity and set themselves up to something that could go horribly wrong.

[Combatbutler]

Calia represents the Forsaken which blighted Darkshore. Tyrande says "your people" which are the Forsaken

She says your kind, not people. Textbook racist statement

Undead is not even a race, its a state. When they are undead they don't stop to be an undead elf or an undead human. It is a unnatural state per definition. And despite that statement which was from a short story, Shandris and Maiev show compassion towards one of them. So how reliable is that statement?

Very reliable, since we see it time and time and it is an out of game statement for the entire general night elf population from the cdevs

Thats not true, prejudice is having opinions that is not based on reason or actual experience. Which is not true in this case as I have shown before.

Also if you are prejudice against a organization, you are not racist either.

It is the same blanket statement, she calls every horde member rabid for example.

[Dellis0991]

This is the right thread to repeat my longstanding theory that Varodoc actually hates void elves far more than any of us and this is part of a long form effort to turn even more people against them. I point you to his Yrel account that went on about how void and orcs were the devil as Exhibit A.

^At this point I'm inclined to believe that.

[Varodoc]

Yes..? You’ve said “They are the most unique-looking race in the game.”. I’m sure you know what you’ve said, but considering that you’ve turned it into a question, I felt like giving a quote isn’t a bad idea.
Elisande was a racist Legion supporter, she isn’t credible enough to take her opinions at face value.
Nigh elf elegance could easily be seen in their artwork, architecture and culture. Denying it is a little silly, to be honest.
Look, I know that you are smitten by the void elf look. I can see why you would think that, even if I don’t share that opinion, but... Unique-looking? Moreover “the most unique-looking race in the game”? No.

In their artwork and architecture, it can also be seen how they worship the light of Elune and thus are not nearly as shadowy as void elves. The priests of the Cathedral of Holy Light never warned night elves to stay out of that holy place.

I have been asking this since the beginning, I didn't turn anything into a question. Since some people claim void elves are not unique at all, go ahead and name any Alliance or Horde race that looks like them aesthetically.

They are merely a anomaly, they crossed the thin line between curiosity and stupidity and set themselves up to something that could go horribly wrong.

Playable orcs, undead, blood elves, nightborne, and highmountain tauren are all an "anomaly" as well then.

^At this point I'm inclined to believe that.

I'm just stating facts. OP claimed void elves aesthetically fit the Horde, when they don't at all. No Horde race is as void-y as they are. Storywise the void elves literally got exiled because they didn't fit into the Horde.

In fact, I'm actually surprised this is still going on... I thought it was pretty obvious how void elves fit neither faction aesthetically. But then again leave it to MMO-Champion forum users to make even the smallest things complicated.

[Hellspawn]

She says your kind, not people. Textbook racist statement

Her kind are the forsaken and again its based on recent experience.

Very reliable, since we see it time and time and it is an out of game statement for the entire general night elf population from the cdevs

Is that sarcasm? Non of the cdev stuff mention it. Pretty sure it was in one of the books. Do you have a source?

It is the same blanket statement, she calls every horde member rabid for example.

She calls the Horde as whole, and judged by the past with the Horde this is both reasonable and base on experience

[Verdugo]

this is both reasonable and base on experience

I keep hearing that argument from certain demographics, yes.

[Combatbutler]

Her kind are the forsaken and again its based on recent experience.

Yes going off against someone, who literally did nothing to her, because of her people is not a good argument to make.

Is that sarcasm? Non of the cdev stuff mention it. Pretty sure it was in one of the books. Do you have a source?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev


Can I ask what the general opinion of DKs and Highborne are in night elf society? Is xenophobia still part of their culture?
We cannot speak for every night elf on this topic, but it is safe to assume that the night elves abhor the death knights. Their very existence is unnatural, which goes against everything kaldorei culture stands for.

She calls the Horde as whole, and judged by the past with the Horde this is both reasonable and base on experience

If your past experiences cause you to judge people as a whole and not on the individual level it is racist, period.

[Hellspawn]

Yes going off against someone, who literally did nothing to her, because of her people is not a good argument to make.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev

She represents the people that did stuff to her and her people

If your past experiences cause you to judge people as a whole and not on the individual level it is racist, period.

So a Jew that hates Nazis is racist?

Can I ask what the general opinion of DKs and Highborne are in night elf society? Is xenophobia still part of their culture?
We cannot speak for every night elf on this topic, but it is safe to assume that the night elves abhor the death knights. Their very existence is unnatural, which goes against everything kaldorei culture stands for.

They took back the high borne, the blood elfs were actually mad about that. Also its a wound that is slowly closing, at Darkshore you can even see the leader of the Shen'dralar working with Maiev together.
DKs generally don't have it easy with any race, its interesting that we got specific lore for the night elfs.

Non of the examples you brought up are a clear cut expect the one for DKs. So even with your definition of racist, they are pretty low on the scale.
If that lore will hold up in Shadowlands we will see, again Maiev tried to save Sira both at Darkshore and in the book. Even Tyrande told them to fight the darkness in their hearts when they were rezzed into undead. We already got quite a bit retcons/inconsistencies with past lore regarding undead/scourge stuff.

Is xenophobia still part of their culture?

They invited Gilneans to their home and even were friendly with some Aliens that crashed their Starship next to their home. They are pretty friendly with humans in the war campaign unlike some undead highelf ranger which was actually blatant racist there.
They invited Gnomes and Dwarfs to their land, Worgen are even a part of the Sentinels.
So I would say, no.

[Verdugo]

So a Jew that hates Nazis is racist?

Jew that hates germans would be a better example.

[Combatbutler]

She represents the people that did stuff to her and her people

Yet she did nothing to her

So a Jew that hates Nazis is racist?

A jew that hates germans in general, yes.

Anyway this has gone on long enough and I am going to stop discussing it now.

They invited Gilneans to their home and even were friendly with some Aliens that crashed their Starship next to their home. They are pretty friendly with humans in the war campaign unlike some undead highelf ranger which was actually blatant racist there.
They invited Gnomes and Dwarfs to their land, Worgen are even a part of the Sentinels.
So I would say, no.

That was the question for the c'devs

[Jastall]

Maybe he should have done something about a Pit Lord general walking around Ashenvale and pissing in health fountains.

And maybe the Orcs should have done something about the entire upper crust of their leadership being in cahoots with reality-destroying murdergoats in the first place, but alas, the Legion is sneaky when the writing wants it to be. Grom and his clan were very clearly warned of what would happen if they drank, and did so willingly. No amount of rules lawyering won't make them responsible for that.

[geco]

Did I say it was special? Not once, racism is common in the warcraft universe, heck I don't know a single race that has no racist tendencies.

Because it is always said that the Kaldorei are racist or the most racist.
When they are not even close to it.

[Verdugo]

And maybe the Orcs should have done something about the entire upper crust of their leadership being in cahoots with reality-destroying murdergoats in the first place, but alas, the Legion is sneaky when the writing wants it to be. Grom and his clan were very clearly warned of what would happen if they drank, and did so willingly. No amount of rules lawyering won't make them responsible for that.

There was also the possibility of what would happen if they didnt. Cenarius made sure of that.