Would Sylvanas have beaten Arthas as easily?

[darkoms]

Still you tried to sell it of as arcane originally and if you trully cared about magical forces you would watch alpha gameplay.

Read the first sentence as an answer to your first sentence as in 25 people are heroes are then stronger than 3 keepers at the peak of their power and elemental planets kept elemental lords far better sealed away than what loken and mimiron did to old gods.

Destroyed again doesn't mean killed go find english english dictionaru destroyed isn't a synonym to killed.

I can as at it was mentioned that pillars of creations and not only eye of aman'thul was used to create the seals tidestones at that point was destroyed, hammer of khaz'goroth was in deathwings lair and aegis of aggramar was with odyn meaning only other pillar besides eye of aman'thul that could have being used are tears of elune and it has nature energies inside it and they specifically said pillars of creation meaning more than one and the seals didn't diminish pillars powers meaning it was an insignifcant part of the seals powers and even that killed a demon if they tried to touch it.

Archimonde didn't expect the three to blow up meaning he couldn't protect against so all those are perfect comparisons and mannoroth still managed to put his guards up meaning. I'm not saying anything until we get a proper explanation like from blizz like you demanded on my theories we can't just dismish you theories and leave it alone until blizzard gives an explanation. He showed himself later on to fight against Jarod shadowsong so why are lying to me? and their foremest duty was to protect azeroth and archimonde aiming to claim second well of eternity for the legion wasn't on their importance list and why did you say "after destruction of dragon soul, they got used to the fact after 10 thousands years strength and their duties returned to them"? thats pretty fast.

Shadowlands is right next air element in cosmology map much closer to air than decay or death. Then explain why is the place right next to element of air and opposite emerald dream and tied similiarly to azeroth that emerald dream is in cosmology map? you haven't explained this.

again vile isn't synonym to evil and vile isn't synonym to bad either meaning were does term evil come here again?

unused quotes aren't canon in any way as they were maybe planned but never used. They were atleast present in the room again archimonde or KJ while Alex personally only arrived after fall of malygos and help could be just sending a few drakes as in battle sending reinforcements are considered helping too.

Who did it contradict in cinematic mannoroth was clearly suprissed grom was charging at him so it doesn't contradict.

That just your oppinion on that again. Laura is a finnish name I really don't think you can teach it to me.

again seeing how many time you get banned here I find it hard to believe you don't troll me with my dyslexia as during this debate if I looked enough times you got it two times? as otherwise your manners are fine and neither is english my native language its my third language

This may be due to a secret. The Supreme Botanist subjugated Life (Spirit?) With the help of the Arcana and could even turn into the Tree of Life. I do not need to watch the alpha gameplay, I read Cuirasser.

25 people in Cataclysm cannot be stronger than 3 Guardians
at their prime (among which was also the High Guardian of Ra) because in Pandaria 25 people were still required to defeat the weakened and exhausted Ra. By your time, only 5 people would have been enough by that time. And lol no. The prisons of the Old Gods worked just as well. At the same time, you should not forget that the Old Gods are MUCH stronger than the elementals.

Again. They destroyed him, HE DIED, and after DEATH he set off to RISE to the Twisting Nether. You can stop arguing with obvious things because you do not want to admit that I am right (as always) and because you want Aspects to seem weaker than they are?

Again. The presence of another force (Life or Elements) does not mean that there is no Arcana. Mages constantly subordinate the Elements with the help of the arcana and Vyosky Botanist subordinate Life with the help of the Arcana (at the same time, we don’t even know whether the Tear of Elune is the same Pillar as the others or is it unique and connected with Elune, and not the Aeonar. Titans).

I know that Archimonde did not expect. I’m just telling you that it shows at least that Archimonde is not stronger than the Aspects (otherwise, an insignificant part of their strength would not be enough to completely destroy his body. Just hurt? Yes. To destroy the body? Hardly), but as a maximum it shows that he is weaker than them . Again. Chronicles 3> Warcraft 3. If you feel like it, go and ask on Twitter about this situation. What does Jarod have to do with it? Archimonde went out to fight with Jarod when he was already completely sure of the arrival of Sargeras and he also wanted to punish Jarod for resistance and just played with him. And again. He never went out to fight against the Aspects for all the time they participated in the War of the Ancients. Can you stop asking me stupid questions? They lost their strength for 10 thousand years and ceased to fulfill their duties. When these forces returned to them, it took them a while to get used to the fact that they were again the defenders of Azeroth (they did not consider themselves so without their powers). Most likely, they did not even know about the invasion of Archimonde.

I have no idea why you are asking me such a stupid question. How do I know why it is located near the air? I did not claim that it somehow resists air or that there is no air or other nonsense. But you constantly claim that the Emerald Dream is an analogue of the Shadow Lands. Where are the beings from other worlds? Where is the analogue of the Arbiter? Why does one Aspect rule? Why organizes one Keeper? Why is it connected with only one world? I also still do not know why you are interested. Your initial point of view is that Archimonde died because the powers of Ysera and the powers of the Emerald Dream were in the tree, right? That is, it is a matter of measurement, not a being. By your logic, Archimonde will die from one Frostmourne because there is the power of the Shadow Lands? Each time you write more and more nonsense and you yourself are already confused in your statements.

Give me an example of a good and decent soul who went to the Maw (before the Arbiter broke). Sylvanas went to the Maw because she is evil and has no chance of atonement. Like Arthas. By your logic, there are no evil characters at all. Sargeras is not evil. Log In Lords are not evil.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...?id=132397#170
The combined forces of Dragonshell invaded the Nexus and Alexstrasza was personally present when the defenders of Azeroth encountered Malygos (and did not arrive when they already killed him). The situation is the same as with the Lich King. In the game, he freezes Tyrion at the very beginning of the battle. Chronicles 3 says that he froze after a long and hard battle.

Sorry what? My opinion? No, just your opinion is that the Chronicles are non-canon because they are the Pov of the Titans and that Warcraft 3 is more canonical than the Chronicles. Information is considered canonical until it is declared non-canonical or replaced with new information. Here's how the LORE works.

Explicitly surprised? Lol no, he runs at him and he is angry. Chronicles 3 says that he did not expect that Grommash could hit him.

I'm being banned for some stupid reasons. I get banned when I call the troll a man who proves that Sylvanas is stronger than Sargeras and that Hartstone is a canon at the Chronicles level. I get banned when I call a fan of LK a man who proves that Arthas can easily kill any creature on Azeroth and that Dave Kosak does not know the lore if he says that Lei Shen is stronger than Arthas or a man who claims that the Scourge can easily destroy the whole Azeroth or defeat the Legion. At the same time, they banned me for trolling, and not for toxic behavior. Seriously? I'm troll? I AM? How can you be considered trolling when you call someone a fan of LK (and they don’t even deny that they are his fans and call Arthas their favorite characters in the Warcraft universe). In fact, many people on the forum consider me a troll, which is very stupid and funny at the same time. No troll will spend so much effort to explain the lore to people whose knowledge is limited to a couple of quotes from NPCs, non-canon RPG and Warcraft 3. It looks more like Alucard hates me because I point him to holes in his knowledge of lore as often as the rest, I tell him to stop using his personal theories and logical conclusions in disputes, as if they were facts, although they were not based on anything and therefore constantly looking for an opportunity to ban me. And, as I have said several times, I really don’t like to point out your dyslexia, I’m just trying to make you understand how difficult it is for me to read you and answer you.

Infracted.

[Terongor]

This may be due to a secret. The Supreme Botanist subjugated Life (Spirit?) With the help of the Arcana and could even turn into the Tree of Life. I do not need to watch the alpha gameplay, I read Cuirasser.

25 people in Cataclysm cannot be stronger than 3 Guardians
at their prime (among which was also the High Guardian of Ra) because in Pandaria 25 people were still required to defeat the weakened and exhausted Ra. By your time, only 5 people would have been enough by that time. And lol no. The prisons of the Old Gods worked just as well. At the same time, you should not forget that the Old Gods are MUCH stronger than the elementals.

Again. They destroyed him, HE DIED, and after DEATH he set off to RISE to the Twisting Nether. You can stop arguing with obvious things because you do not want to admit that I am right (as always) and because you want Aspects to seem weaker than they are?

Again. The presence of another force (Life or Elements) does not mean that there is no Arcana. Mages constantly subordinate the Elements with the help of the arcana and Vyosky Botanist subordinate Life with the help of the Arcana (at the same time, we don’t even know whether the Tear of Elune is the same Pillar as the others or is it unique and connected with Elune, and not the Aeonar. Titans).

I know that Archimonde did not expect. I’m just telling you that it shows at least that Archimonde is not stronger than the Aspects (otherwise, an insignificant part of their strength would not be enough to completely destroy his body. Just hurt? Yes. To destroy the body? Hardly), but as a maximum it shows that he is weaker than them . Again. Chronicles 3> Warcraft 3. If you feel like it, go and ask on Twitter about this situation. What does Jarod have to do with it? Archimonde went out to fight with Jarod when he was already completely sure of the arrival of Sargeras and he also wanted to punish Jarod for resistance and just played with him. And again. He never went out to fight against the Aspects for all the time they participated in the War of the Ancients. Can you stop asking me stupid questions? They lost their strength for 10 thousand years and ceased to fulfill their duties. When these forces returned to them, it took them a while to get used to the fact that they were again the defenders of Azeroth (they did not consider themselves so without their powers). Most likely, they did not even know about the invasion of Archimonde.

I have no idea why you are asking me such a stupid question. How do I know why it is located near the air? I did not claim that it somehow resists air or that there is no air or other nonsense. But you constantly claim that the Emerald Dream is an analogue of the Shadow Lands. Where are the beings from other worlds? Where is the analogue of the Arbiter? Why does one Aspect rule? Why organizes one Keeper? Why is it connected with only one world? I also still do not know why you are interested. Your initial point of view is that Archimonde died because the powers of Ysera and the powers of the Emerald Dream were in the tree, right? That is, it is a matter of measurement, not a being. By your logic, Archimonde will die from one Frostmourne because there is the power of the Shadow Lands? Each time you write more and more nonsense and you yourself are already confused in your statements.

Give me an example of a good and decent soul who went to the Maw (before the Arbiter broke). Sylvanas went to the Maw because she is evil and has no chance of atonement. Like Arthas. By your logic, there are no evil characters at all. Sargeras is not evil. Log In Lords are not evil.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Wor...?id=132397#170
The combined forces of Dragonshell invaded the Nexus and Alexstrasza was personally present when the defenders of Azeroth encountered Malygos (and did not arrive when they already killed him). The situation is the same as with the Lich King. In the game, he freezes Tyrion at the very beginning of the battle. Chronicles 3 says that he froze after a long and hard battle.

Sorry what? My opinion? No, just your opinion is that the Chronicles are non-canon because they are the Pov of the Titans and that Warcraft 3 is more canonical than the Chronicles. Information is considered canonical until it is declared non-canonical or replaced with new information. Here's how the LORE works.

Explicitly surprised? Lol no, he runs at him and he is angry. Chronicles 3 says that he did not expect that Grommash could hit him.

I'm being banned for some stupid reasons. I get banned when I call the troll a man who proves that Sylvanas is stronger than Sargeras and that Hartstone is a canon at the Chronicles level. I get banned when I call a fan of LK a man who proves that Arthas can easily kill any creature on Azeroth and that Dave Kosak does not know the lore if he says that Lei Shen is stronger than Arthas or a man who claims that the Scourge can easily destroy the whole Azeroth or defeat the Legion. At the same time, they banned me for trolling, and not for toxic behavior. Seriously? I'm troll? I AM? How can you be considered trolling when you call someone a fan of LK (and they don’t even deny that they are his fans and call Arthas their favorite characters in the Warcraft universe). In fact, many people on the forum consider me a troll, which is very stupid and funny at the same time. No troll will spend so much effort to explain the lore to people whose knowledge is limited to a couple of quotes from NPCs, non-canon RPG and Warcraft 3. It looks more like Alucard hates me because I point him to holes in his knowledge of lore as often as the rest, I tell him to stop using his personal theories and logical conclusions in disputes, as if they were facts, although they were not based on anything and therefore constantly looking for an opportunity to ban me. And, as I have said several times, I really don’t like to point out your dyslexia, I’m just trying to make you understand how difficult it is for me to read you and answer you.

Infracted.

Not really and the similiraties of arcane life is always green or yellow while this anima of mop is red and venthyr anima stuff is red having similiar reaction to blood dks and dks for 100% dont' use life.

They still were strong enough to beat al'akir at the place ofhis strength and at his full power making either al'akir and elemental lords weaker from lore pov. It clearly didn't as sundering affected n'zoths and yogg-sarons prisons too much while sundering didn't do anything to elemental planes.

Wording was never used killed even chronicles according to you used destroyed and again they aren't synonyms.

It doesn't but with your logic alex and yseras powers are partly arcane as they were given powers by a titan who used both arcane and life but it clearly shows that spells created with pillars kills demon who even touch them.

Well around same power level but I wouldn't say grommash with gorehowl is stronger than mannoroth and it really doesn't contradict mannoroth just didn't expect grommash to attack him but he had time to react again. Also about the original death of archimonde you are again twisting what I said I said that it was with connection to emerald dream and the well of eternity bellow it why do you lie about what I said? You said previously archimonde should up openly only once during the war of ancients and that was figh against malorne and that statement was a lie because he showed up to fight jarod and you claimed earlier without their powers they could easily defeat archimonde and alexstrasza though herself even without her powers a guardiang of the world and how krasus talks about third war in sunwell trilogy we know red dragonflight knew about the legions invasion.

There are others things besides good or evil which are subjective and we don't even know what souls went to maw besides few at this point and it was never specified they were evil just corrupt or dark souls which are objective things inside wow universe blizz employees never used the term evil to descripe souls going to thre.

"Alexrtrasza herself was there when azeroth's defendenders faced the aspect of magic and struck him down" it only descripes again alexstrasza was there but not in anyway that she fough against malygos personally which would still fit in ingame narrative what happened in the fight itself.

We also have statement from metzen about novels "...yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, ahm, the funny thing is that some things are less canon, you know, but we shoot for canon... that's a strange statement... we shoot for canon... but yeah, typically the characters in novels are canon. " and chronicles are even making emerald dream contradictory by giving 3 different possible origins for it.Also if a main part of book gets retconned in game or book series usually its considered the whole books not canon.

In cutscene before he charges mannoroth mannoroth makes a big speech that grommash is part of him and he can't disobey him and the speech stops when he charges at mannoroth which can be taken as stunned meaning a suprise.

For starters blizzard out of game statements are most canon stuff like dave kosaks statement about LK they are always canon as they are meant how the team sees it and heck Ion could say Kael'thas was stronger than LK at the peak of his power and that would change the canon completely as he is the head of wow team and he gets the finale say on everything recarding to warcarft. Well sounds like same kind theories we both have which aren't based on anything major just on own conclusions.

[Insatiable]

Yes, she would demolish his toxic masculinity

Feminism conquers everything

[darkoms]

Not really and the similiraties of arcane life is always green or yellow while this anima of mop is red and venthyr anima stuff is red having similiar reaction to blood dks and dks for 100% dont' use life.

They still were strong enough to beat al'akir at the place ofhis strength and at his full power making either al'akir and elemental lords weaker from lore pov. It clearly didn't as sundering affected n'zoths and yogg-sarons prisons too much while sundering didn't do anything to elemental planes.

Wording was never used killed even chronicles according to you used destroyed and again they aren't synonyms.

It doesn't but with your logic alex and yseras powers are partly arcane as they were given powers by a titan who used both arcane and life but it clearly shows that spells created with pillars kills demon who even touch them.

Well around same power level but I wouldn't say grommash with gorehowl is stronger than mannoroth and it really doesn't contradict mannoroth just didn't expect grommash to attack him but he had time to react again. Also about the original death of archimonde you are again twisting what I said I said that it was with connection to emerald dream and the well of eternity bellow it why do you lie about what I said? You said previously archimonde should up openly only once during the war of ancients and that was figh against malorne and that statement was a lie because he showed up to fight jarod and you claimed earlier without their powers they could easily defeat archimonde and alexstrasza though herself even without her powers a guardiang of the world and how krasus talks about third war in sunwell trilogy we know red dragonflight knew about the legions invasion.

There are others things besides good or evil which are subjective and we don't even know what souls went to maw besides few at this point and it was never specified they were evil just corrupt or dark souls which are objective things inside wow universe blizz employees never used the term evil to descripe souls going to thre.

"Alexrtrasza herself was there when azeroth's defendenders faced the aspect of magic and struck him down" it only descripes again alexstrasza was there but not in anyway that she fough against malygos personally which would still fit in ingame narrative what happened in the fight itself.

We also have statement from metzen about novels "...yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, ahm, the funny thing is that some things are less canon, you know, but we shoot for canon... that's a strange statement... we shoot for canon... but yeah, typically the characters in novels are canon. " and chronicles are even making emerald dream contradictory by giving 3 different possible origins for it.Also if a main part of book gets retconned in game or book series usually its considered the whole books not canon.

In cutscene before he charges mannoroth mannoroth makes a big speech that grommash is part of him and he can't disobey him and the speech stops when he charges at mannoroth which can be taken as stunned meaning a suprise.

For starters blizzard out of game statements are most canon stuff like dave kosaks statement about LK they are always canon as they are meant how the team sees it and heck Ion could say Kael'thas was stronger than LK at the peak of his power and that would change the canon completely as he is the head of wow team and he gets the finale say on everything recarding to warcarft. Well sounds like same kind theories we both have which aren't based on anything major just on own conclusions.

What? There are not many examples of mixing lasso and life to determine by color. Life yellow usually means the magic of the sun, not the power of the arcana.

Again. How can 25 characters be stronger than 3 Guardians, if in Mop it took 25 characters (not 5) to defeat only one Guardian-Ra Den and at the same time he was MUCH weaker than during his battle with Alakir? This is a plot hole and I don't know how to explain it. You know? How did you determine what the Sundering did for the elemental prisons and what it did for the Old Gods' prisons? Not to mention, the Old Gods' prisons are physical locations on Azeroth, these are titan-forged structures, while the Elemental Plane is a separate dimension.

Again. Stop wriggling over your ego. Archimonde died (no bones remain after exile) and after death he fell into the Twisting Nether. You are trying to diminish the power of the Aspects because they have not completely destroyed it, but this cannot be done in a place where there is little Filth. Sargeras, when he first began to fight the demons, also did not kill them, but only drove them into the Twisting. Does this make Sargeras weak? I ask you about this 3 times and you still haven't answered this question for me. Because you cannot. You do not want to admit that you said nonsense, that your argument does not work, that I am right and you are not (as always). Stop acting like a child. If your knowledge does not match mine (feel free to do so, no one on this forum knows lore at my level), do not argue with me.

It is hard to say. We do not know how Eonar herself uses Life. Is she just using her as a druid? Or does she subdue Life with the help of the Arcana, as the high botanist did? Even so, it doesn't mean anything. Can you give an example of a spell that instantly destroys a demon? Although I have no doubt that this is true. But this speaks only of the enormous magical power of the artifact (and, most likely, the vulnerability of demons to the lasso). Jaina with a powerful artifact could flood Orgrimmar. Unsurprisingly, a talented magician can destroy the demon's know with the power of the Pillar of Creation.

I am not distorting anything. Again, it is very difficult for me to read what you write. Archimonde was PLAYING with Jarod and Jarod knew it. He knew that Archimonde could kill him at any moment, but Archimonde wanted to humiliate him and prolong his death for a long time. This is not the same as his fight with Malorne, where he actually tried to kill Malorne because he was too strong for common demons. Who are they? Who can easily defeat Archimonde without strength? What are the forces protecting the world? What nonsense are you writing? Oh, you have no idea how difficult it is for me to parse your proposals and respond to them. The trilogy takes place AFTER the Legion's invasion. I don't understand why you used this stupid argument. Of course, the red dragons learn of the Legion's invasion AFTER IT'S ENDED.

They were described as the most dangerous souls in space, Blizzard said that the Arbiter sends those who are dangerous to contain in other realms to the Maw, and we know that the Ventryra also send souls to the Maw that cannot find redemption. And good souls don't go to Revendreth. You are just trying to justify your goddess Sylvanas because you don't want to admit that she is evil, because you are afraid that if she is recognized as evil, she will become a raid boss and die.

I think this is the same situation as in the case of Archimonde. Khadgar, Grommash and Yrel are essentially not taking a real part in the battle, but from a plot point of view, it was they who defeated him (along with the players). Or Kil'jaeden. Illidan, Khadgar and Velen did not participate in the battle during the raid, they fought the demons, but from a plot point of view, it was they who defeated him.

Books are canon. And Metzen himself talks about it. But some things of them can be discarded (as well as anything). The chronicles show quite clearly that world souls dream while they sleep. And Agrammar felt the DREAM of the Titan. So it's pretty obvious how the Emerald Dream came about. When Sargeras found a world soul infected by the Old Gods, he felt the NIGHTMARS of the soul world. Do you know what the corruption of the Old Gods is called in the Emerald Dream? Emerald NIGHTMARE.

Was he so stunned that he decided to attack Grommash in return? Please don't say such nonsense.

I have no idea why you wrote this. I don't argue with that. On the contrary, I point out that I was banned for saying this to people. Maybe you will read what I am writing more carefully before trying to explain to me what I already know?

[Jackstraw]

No.

Saurfang wounded Sylvanas as she lost her composure.

Now this can be retconned as well, like most of whatever surrounded the banshee has been minced and remade to satisfy whatever narrative pushed on the Horde during BfA, but Sylvanas has never been able to keep her cool around Arthas.
Even when she poisoned him in Lordaeron with Arthas still being only a Death Knight, she couldn't help but taunting and actively pursuing him for a while.

Sylvanas has a complex relationship with Arthas, and although her desire for revenge might be strong, there's way too much that's intertwined between them for her to face him with the sharpness she displayed in fighting Bolvar.

Not to mention the fact that Arthas was, in my opinion, way stronger than Bolvar. But that's a subjective take with no proper basis.

[Terongor]

What? There are not many examples of mixing lasso and life to determine by color. Life yellow usually means the magic of the sun, not the power of the arcana.

Again. How can 25 characters be stronger than 3 Guardians, if in Mop it took 25 characters (not 5) to defeat only one Guardian-Ra Den and at the same time he was MUCH weaker than during his battle with Alakir? This is a plot hole and I don't know how to explain it. You know? How did you determine what the Sundering did for the elemental prisons and what it did for the Old Gods' prisons? Not to mention, the Old Gods' prisons are physical locations on Azeroth, these are titan-forged structures, while the Elemental Plane is a separate dimension.

Again. Stop wriggling over your ego. Archimonde died (no bones remain after exile) and after death he fell into the Twisting Nether. You are trying to diminish the power of the Aspects because they have not completely destroyed it, but this cannot be done in a place where there is little Filth. Sargeras, when he first began to fight the demons, also did not kill them, but only drove them into the Twisting. Does this make Sargeras weak? I ask you about this 3 times and you still haven't answered this question for me. Because you cannot. You do not want to admit that you said nonsense, that your argument does not work, that I am right and you are not (as always). Stop acting like a child. If your knowledge does not match mine (feel free to do so, no one on this forum knows lore at my level), do not argue with me.

It is hard to say. We do not know how Eonar herself uses Life. Is she just using her as a druid? Or does she subdue Life with the help of the Arcana, as the high botanist did? Even so, it doesn't mean anything. Can you give an example of a spell that instantly destroys a demon? Although I have no doubt that this is true. But this speaks only of the enormous magical power of the artifact (and, most likely, the vulnerability of demons to the lasso). Jaina with a powerful artifact could flood Orgrimmar. Unsurprisingly, a talented magician can destroy the demon's know with the power of the Pillar of Creation.

I am not distorting anything. Again, it is very difficult for me to read what you write. Archimonde was PLAYING with Jarod and Jarod knew it. He knew that Archimonde could kill him at any moment, but Archimonde wanted to humiliate him and prolong his death for a long time. This is not the same as his fight with Malorne, where he actually tried to kill Malorne because he was too strong for common demons. Who are they? Who can easily defeat Archimonde without strength? What are the forces protecting the world? What nonsense are you writing? Oh, you have no idea how difficult it is for me to parse your proposals and respond to them. The trilogy takes place AFTER the Legion's invasion. I don't understand why you used this stupid argument. Of course, the red dragons learn of the Legion's invasion AFTER IT'S ENDED.

They were described as the most dangerous souls in space, Blizzard said that the Arbiter sends those who are dangerous to contain in other realms to the Maw, and we know that the Ventryra also send souls to the Maw that cannot find redemption. And good souls don't go to Revendreth. You are just trying to justify your goddess Sylvanas because you don't want to admit that she is evil, because you are afraid that if she is recognized as evil, she will become a raid boss and die.

I think this is the same situation as in the case of Archimonde. Khadgar, Grommash and Yrel are essentially not taking a real part in the battle, but from a plot point of view, it was they who defeated him (along with the players). Or Kil'jaeden. Illidan, Khadgar and Velen did not participate in the battle during the raid, they fought the demons, but from a plot point of view, it was they who defeated him.

Books are canon. And Metzen himself talks about it. But some things of them can be discarded (as well as anything). The chronicles show quite clearly that world souls dream while they sleep. And Agrammar felt the DREAM of the Titan. So it's pretty obvious how the Emerald Dream came about. When Sargeras found a world soul infected by the Old Gods, he felt the NIGHTMARS of the soul world. Do you know what the corruption of the Old Gods is called in the Emerald Dream? Emerald NIGHTMARE.

Was he so stunned that he decided to attack Grommash in return? Please don't say such nonsense.

I have no idea why you wrote this. I don't argue with that. On the contrary, I point out that I was banned for saying this to people. Maybe you will read what I am writing more carefully before trying to explain to me what I already know?

Well give any example were life has ever depicted as red before?

We don't know if it took 25 people its just 25 killed him again saying that lorewise whole raid was needed is streching it as we don't have any knowledge of it so its not a plothole. We had clear portals to elemental planes on azeroth like throne of tides area of abyssal maw and vortex pinnacle and throne of the four winds for skywall so they are clearly tied to azeroth in physical ways too so elemental planes should have being affected by we have know knowledge of them being affected.

You are just trying yourself to wriggle as no official source has stated archimonde died in hyjal and none of the deaths or dyings synonyms were used either. Why should I answer that question as my problem with this is definitions and wording.

Magic seals on tomb of sargeras are all single spells and everyone of the destroyes a demon if a demon touches them and they were just titan magic.

Yeah you are as earlier you should archimonde showed only once during whole WotA to field of battle and now you are agreeing there is a second time.... You either were trying a) lie to me b) twisting the facts or c) contradicting yourself. So you are saying the aspects didn't sense the demonic magic of archimonde destroying dalaran or krasus who would have most likely informed it to alex?

So? were is the definition evil again? those aren't synonyms? being dangerous doesn't mean evil? inviduals can do bad actions that still doesn't make them evil they still might be needed to be redeemed for their actions. Also how are you twisting my arguments that I like sylvanas? never said anything even implying it just that I don't think there is anything good or evil just subjective views and you argument is arbiter defines which is good or evil but blizzard never said anything towards that.

They actually took part in battle you know being there in the room doing their attack animations etc and grommash killing demons pouring from black gate and again on KJ fight they actually did something there and you can even compare those as they actively took part in the fight. In what phase you see alex in malygos fight?

Still doesn't explain again why its placed opposite to shadowlands in chronicles and that its same way tied to azeroth that shadowlands is and as we 2 contradicting statements in chroncles written about the beginning of emerald dream in chronicles you are just ignoring the other theory in chronicles and totally disregarding the connection of shadowlands to azeroth which is depicted as similiar that emerald dream has and on this case I'm not offer any theory just pointing out what your theory is ignoring while you offer your own theory as canon.

He never decided to attack just go into a defensive position as you clearly see as I previously said mannoroth just had time to react to grommashes attack defensively as he was stunned that grommash was charging him.

You wrote that list pretty unclearly overall so its easy to mix it up.

[darkoms]

Well give any example were life has ever depicted as red before?

We don't know if it took 25 people its just 25 killed him again saying that lorewise whole raid was needed is streching it as we don't have any knowledge of it so its not a plothole. We had clear portals to elemental planes on azeroth like throne of tides area of abyssal maw and vortex pinnacle and throne of the four winds for skywall so they are clearly tied to azeroth in physical ways too so elemental planes should have being affected by we have know knowledge of them being affected.

You are just trying yourself to wriggle as no official source has stated archimonde died in hyjal and none of the deaths or dyings synonyms were used either. Why should I answer that question as my problem with this is definitions and wording.

Magic seals on tomb of sargeras are all single spells and everyone of the destroyes a demon if a demon touches them and they were just titan magic.

Yeah you are as earlier you should archimonde showed only once during whole WotA to field of battle and now you are agreeing there is a second time.... You either were trying a) lie to me b) twisting the facts or c) contradicting yourself. So you are saying the aspects didn't sense the demonic magic of archimonde destroying dalaran or krasus who would have most likely informed it to alex?

So? were is the definition evil again? those aren't synonyms? being dangerous doesn't mean evil? inviduals can do bad actions that still doesn't make them evil they still might be needed to be redeemed for their actions. Also how are you twisting my arguments that I like sylvanas? never said anything even implying it just that I don't think there is anything good or evil just subjective views and you argument is arbiter defines which is good or evil but blizzard never said anything towards that.

They actually took part in battle you know being there in the room doing their attack animations etc and grommash killing demons pouring from black gate and again on KJ fight they actually did something there and you can even compare those as they actively took part in the fight. In what phase you see alex in malygos fight?

Still doesn't explain again why its placed opposite to shadowlands in chronicles and that its same way tied to azeroth that shadowlands is and as we 2 contradicting statements in chroncles written about the beginning of emerald dream in chronicles you are just ignoring the other theory in chronicles and totally disregarding the connection of shadowlands to azeroth which is depicted as similiar that emerald dream has and on this case I'm not offer any theory just pointing out what your theory is ignoring while you offer your own theory as canon.

He never decided to attack just go into a defensive position as you clearly see as I previously said mannoroth just had time to react to grommashes attack defensively as he was stunned that grommash was charging him.

You wrote that list pretty unclearly overall so its easy to mix it up.

Blood magic ??? https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/608513789944684544

25 people is the maximum. Are you saying that 10 people beat him? Are 10 people stronger than 3 Guardians at their peak? Portals to these plans were opened due to Deathwing. Well, you know, the Aspect, which is related to the Elements.

So you're saying that the skeleton in Hyjal is just a fake and that Archimonde actually just fled? Do you yourself realize the stupidity that you say? I repeat. Demons DIE and are sent to REBIRTH in the Twisting Nether. This is a well-known fact. You should know this.

Just titanic magic? What does simple mean? There is no titanic magic. There are forces of cosmology. Titans almost always use the lasso. Do you know how much magical power these seals contain? Can we claim that this magic will kill ANY demon and even KilJaeden? Do we know how much effort it took to apply these seals?

You are either joking or you don’t understand what I’m talking about at all. Archimonde showed himself 1 time in open battle because Malorne was an incredibly important threat and Archimonde decided to kill him personally. But when aspects appeared that are much stronger than Malorne, who are the leaders of the dragons and who can really prevent the invasion of the Legion, Archimonde did nothing. He didn't decide to fight them. And in Jarod's case, he was just playing. He wanted to humiliate him. He didn't see him as a threat. The Aspects were too preoccupied with preventing Sargeras from entering. How were the Aspects supposed to notice this? Once again. Chronicles say that after Deathwing's defeat, the Aspects needed time to regain their power and responsibilities. Have you read the Chronicles at all? And what does Krasus have to do with it? Krasus left Dalaran after Deathwing's defeat to be with Alexstrasza, as he talks about in The Day of the Dragon. He was not in Dalaran during Arthas' invasion. What makes you think that he knew about it ???

Again. Ventries send souls to the Maw of those who cannot find atonement for their sins. Warcraft has a clear definition of good and evil, and the Shadowlands show that whether you like it or not. Your goddess is evil, whether you like it or not.

They just run there and that's it. They do no real damage to Archimonde. The same goes for the fight with KilJaeden. And you must remember that the battle with Malygos was in Votlk, and the battle with Archimonde and Kiljaeden was in Draenor and the Legion. You must consider the time difference. It wouldn't make sense to add Alexstrasza to Votlk and not give her real mechanics.

Until now, you have not explained to me why the Emerald Dream is tied to only one planet, unlike the multiverse Shadowlands.

Review the video. Mannoroth and Grommash literally run at each other.

No offense, but ... maybe the problem is you? I wrote everything as clearly as possible. I made it clear from the beginning that I was banned simply for telling people the obvious things.

Infracted.

[Terongor]

Blood magic ??? https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/608513789944684544

25 people is the maximum. Are you saying that 10 people beat him? Are 10 people stronger than 3 Guardians at their peak? Portals to these plans were opened due to Deathwing. Well, you know, the Aspect, which is related to the Elements.

So you're saying that the skeleton in Hyjal is just a fake and that Archimonde actually just fled? Do you yourself realize the stupidity that you say? I repeat. Demons DIE and are sent to REBIRTH in the Twisting Nether. This is a well-known fact. You should know this.

Just titanic magic? What does simple mean? There is no titanic magic. There are forces of cosmology. Titans almost always use the lasso. Do you know how much magical power these seals contain? Can we claim that this magic will kill ANY demon and even KilJaeden? Do we know how much effort it took to apply these seals?

You are either joking or you don’t understand what I’m talking about at all. Archimonde showed himself 1 time in open battle because Malorne was an incredibly important threat and Archimonde decided to kill him personally. But when aspects appeared that are much stronger than Malorne, who are the leaders of the dragons and who can really prevent the invasion of the Legion, Archimonde did nothing. He didn't decide to fight them. And in Jarod's case, he was just playing. He wanted to humiliate him. He didn't see him as a threat. The Aspects were too preoccupied with preventing Sargeras from entering. How were the Aspects supposed to notice this? Once again. Chronicles say that after Deathwing's defeat, the Aspects needed time to regain their power and responsibilities. Have you read the Chronicles at all? And what does Krasus have to do with it? Krasus left Dalaran after Deathwing's defeat to be with Alexstrasza, as he talks about in The Day of the Dragon. He was not in Dalaran during Arthas' invasion. What makes you think that he knew about it ???

Again. Ventries send souls to the Maw of those who cannot find atonement for their sins. Warcraft has a clear definition of good and evil, and the Shadowlands show that whether you like it or not. Your goddess is evil, whether you like it or not.

They just run there and that's it. They do no real damage to Archimonde. The same goes for the fight with KilJaeden. And you must remember that the battle with Malygos was in Votlk, and the battle with Archimonde and Kiljaeden was in Draenor and the Legion. You must consider the time difference. It wouldn't make sense to add Alexstrasza to Votlk and not give her real mechanics.

Until now, you have not explained to me why the Emerald Dream is tied to only one planet, unlike the multiverse Shadowlands.

Review the video. Mannoroth and Grommash literally run at each other.

No offense, but ... maybe the problem is you? I wrote everything as clearly as possible. I made it clear from the beginning that I was banned simply for telling people the obvious things.

Its that mogu blood magic,dk blood magic, G'huun blood magic or hakkar blood magic as all of them are pretty different.

We don't know that but it would seem that 10-25 players at the time could beat al'akir showing the weakness on your theory of how strong elemental lords were lorewise. Deathwing have only connection to earth and maybe fire but we have never seen him having any connection to water or wind elements.

Its what remained when he was destroyed not killed.

Again titanic magic is magic which originates from titan and same as we have magic things called draenai magic which is magic which someway originates from draenai as we have ingame characters using those terms. How do titans use lasso? what is this titanic lasso? We don't know we only know they were made hastily(how it was descriped in ToS audio drama) with "pillars of creations" by kaldorei during WotA so titanic artifacts atleast two of them and hastily made so they couldn't give really that much effort as it was hastily made and seeing that no major part of pillars of creation powers were lost in doing them.

You didn't say that earlier.... you said only archimonde showed up in battle onces before. Krasus would have most likely still kept eye on the world and they still would have sensed the legions invasion.

No there really isn't clear good or evil after blizzard made both light and void subjective moral stands and again what you stated didn't imply good or evil in wow universe nor did blizzard say only evil go maw only corrupted souls and corrupt isn't a synonym for evil. Also sylvanas is a dull character but calling her evil is just as stupid as her.

yeah and they didn't add any mechanics for these people who did no damage either just were there and they did have kalecgos take part in sunwell KJ fight aswell him speaking and attacking KJ but doing no actual damage and only thing what really changed when kalecgos arrived was players could use the orbs to control drakes so they could have done the same when players mounted the red drakes that alexs would have arrived there too started flying at corner and time to time spit fire on malygos which wouldn't do any damage so by all means it would have made time was sense to add her then if she actual fought against malygos.

We don't have any data or facts to say one way or another as chronicles have two different possible origins for it we can only say it could be either one or something differant until blizzard gives definitive one explanation which doesn't leave anything open as emerald dream having similiar connection to azeroth as shadowlands does makes it weirder. As such why would I need to theorise about this? as we clearly don't have enough knowledge.

https://youtu.be/L2sTXXesYNM?t=124 you mean this were mannoroths manages to pick up his weapon and move him self to position which is better for trying defend? running not in any ways does mannoroth run there at best he takes one steppe with both of his feet to move himself.

Me? you started speaking to me about "the lasso" on this comment....... so your writting skills either aren't anything to brag about....
Also again banned?

Infracted.

[Hubbl3]

Since the power levels in WoW depend entirely on Blizz and it has been proven time and time again, that there is no consitency at all in the world:

Maybe, if the story demanded it.

[Tyze]

Absolutely. Bolvar was the Lich King for longer than Arthas was, there was nothing innately special about Arthas and there is no reason to presume that Bolvar would be less capable as the Lich King than Arthas was.

The entire point of Sylvanas being able to defeat the Lich King in one on one combat was to demonstrate just how powerful she has become since she joined 'the maw covenant' and to establish her as a threat even greater than Arthas was...and by implication, make us realise just what a threat the Jailer is if HE is stronger than her.

No. Bolvar sat on his throne for ages and did nothing.

I'm not faster than football players because I'm a few years older.

[Nightwatch]

Every Sylvanas fan says "Yes. Everyone not fan of Sylvanas says "no."

[Varodoc]

No.

Saurfang wounded Sylvanas as she lost her composure.

Now this can be retconned as well, like most of whatever surrounded the banshee has been minced and remade to satisfy whatever narrative pushed on the Horde during BfA, but Sylvanas has never been able to keep her cool around Arthas.
Even when she poisoned him in Lordaeron with Arthas still being only a Death Knight, she couldn't help but taunting and actively pursuing him for a while.

Sylvanas has a complex relationship with Arthas, and although her desire for revenge might be strong, there's way too much that's intertwined between them for her to face him with the sharpness she displayed in fighting Bolvar.

Not to mention the fact that Arthas was, in my opinion, way stronger than Bolvar. But that's a subjective take with no proper basis.

There is some basis for it? In fact, that's what the line "where a usurper sits on a Frozen Throne" implies. Bolvar is a usurper compared to Arthas, because he lacks Frostmourne (the bulk of the Lich King's power, which empowered him with every soul consumed). On top of that Bolvar's Scourge was much weaker than Arthas', just look at what kind of "protection" Bolvar had. A bunch of shambling skeletons. Meanwhile Arthas was protected by Lord Marrowgar, the San'layn, Sindragosa, the val'kyrs, Putricide's abominations...

[Aucald]

No. Bolvar sat on his throne for ages and did nothing.

I'm not faster than football players because I'm a few years older.

Technically, Bolvar wasn't doing nothing - he was using the psychic hold the Lich King has over the Scourge to basically keep them in stasis, preventing them from rampaging across Azeroth as free-willed undead. This didn't require him to act all that much, which is why he did nothing until Legion, when he encountered a need to influence events beyond just keeping the Scourge in check.

[munkeyinorbit]

Every Sylvanas fan says "Yes. Everyone not fan of Sylvanas says "no."

Source please.

[Shiza]

Absolutely. Bolvar was the Lich King for longer than Arthas was, there was nothing innately special about Arthas and there is no reason to presume that Bolvar would be less capable as the Lich King than Arthas was.

The entire point of Sylvanas being able to defeat the Lich King in one on one combat was to demonstrate just how powerful she has become since she joined 'the maw covenant' and to establish her as a threat even greater than Arthas was...and by implication, make us realise just what a threat the Jailer is if HE is stronger than her.

I mean, Arthas was probably one of the most accomplished Warriors on Azeroth even back when he was just a Death Knight, killing or maiming legends and heroes left and right. So he was already probably the strongest DK we ever saw before he was the Lichking. Afterwards, he just showed a much wider array of abilities and skills in combat than we saw Bolvar using. When we compare the effects, his remorseless winter seems to be much more powerful, creating an ice storm which forces everyone out of the epicenter instead of just obscuring ones movements without doing any damage, while also summoning tons of raging spirits while doing it. He summoned undeads including Val'kyr to aid him in combat, defiled the ground, planted shadow traps and when he had enough, he was able to just kill the champions of Azeroth with one hit with frostmournes fury. He is to this day together with Argus one of only two bosses who is canonically able to oneshot the champion.

Compared to what we saw of Bolvar, who as a human was basically just a Paladin with nothing really impressive he accomplished, Arthas seems to have been just the superior fighter and Lichking.

[KSM899]

I read somewhere that Arthas was way stronger than Bolvar for two reasons: He had Frostmourn and a much larger army.

She would have struggled a lot more if it was Arthas, but in the end it depends on what the writers want as there is no real definition of power in Warcraft.

[Zyky]

Pumped up on on death steroids, would she have had just as easy of a time against Arthas as she did with Bolvar and just played around with him? What do you think?

I mean she contests with him long before she gets all these powers back in Halls of Reflection. While she was fighting a losing battle, she was still able to hold out a fairly long time without being defeated AND still had enough power/energy to plot the required escape to fight another day. I think it would have been no contest and Sylvanas would have trashed Arthas just as easily.

[kaelix1]

I read somewhere that Arthas was way stronger than Bolvar for two reasons: He had Frostmourn and a much larger army.

She would have struggled a lot more if it was Arthas, but in the end it depends on what the writers want as there is no real definition of power in Warcraft.

Correct, it was from a tweet from Chris Metzen himself, not sure why people keep debating Arthas vs Bolvar when it really obvious that Arthas is far stronger, not only he absorb far far more souls than Bolvar but he had a stronger army/generals to back him up, I have no hesitation to say that with ICC been full power like in WOTLK Sylvanas would not reach the end

- - - Updated - - -

I mean she contests with him long before she gets all these powers back in Halls of Reflection. While she was fighting a losing battle, she was still able to hold out a fairly long time without being defeated AND still had enough power/energy to plot the required escape to fight another day. I think it would have been no contest and Sylvanas would have trashed Arthas just as easily.

HoR was such one-side battle for Arthas is pure nonsense to bring it up as an argument for Sylvannas

[Houle]

Long story short, we dont know for sure if she woulve beaten Arthas at all.
What we do know for sure is that it woulve been incredibly more difficult, as Arthas was much, much stronger than Bolvar.
He had Frostmourne, and, even more importantly, his Scourge was much bigger in numbers, and chronicles 3 mentioned multiple times that the LK becomes more and more powerful with each undead under his command
So, while we cant say who would prevail in a fight, we can say that Sylvanas at least wouldnt curbstomp, like with Bolvar.
The real answer, however, is whoever Blizz wants to win.

[Engal]

Long story short, we dont know for sure if she woulve beaten Arthas at all.
What we do know for sure is that it woulve been incredibly more difficult, as Arthas was much, much stronger than Bolvar.
He had Frostmourne, and, even more importantly, his Scourge was much bigger in numbers, and chronicles 3 mentioned multiple times that the LK becomes more and more powerful with each undead under his command
So, while we cant say who would prevail in a fight, we can say that Sylvanas at least wouldnt curbstomp, like with Bolvar.
The real answer, however, is whoever Blizz wants to win.

Add to that Sindragosa and the various Val'kyr and everything Arthas had under his command... Bolvar was far from actively raising undead to make an army, he was just there to contain those who still left and prevented them for rampaging...