Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[yana]

My dude i have read wolfheart and saw the build up to the audience, they smelled a great change in the air and decided to try to be of use, tyrande accepted them back with a bajilion restrictions to their sorcery and practises because of their USEFULLNESS.
It wasnt because they wanted to reconect or mend a cultural rift, because the highborne were under a severe leash to prevent their stupidiy from lashing out again, they were accepted back for pragmatic reasons.


To the point they dont even care how many maiev killed in wolfheart, because they are of such low importance that maiev is more valuable.
Hell maiev could have killed each and every highborne and i can bet that tyrande and malfurion would STILL accept her again, thats how little they care.

[Tuor]

Oh yeh? When have these "others" said Nelf society should resume entirely around arcane magic?

When they started desiring magical cities...

You've totally misjudged me,

I didn't named anyone if you haven't realised yet, other then the OP.

and Mace for a fact cos he's never said that, at least not recently.

Offcourse not, he hasn't posted lately.

But yes, he did, he even went further and implied that the new NElf capital should be built with magic, all is resumed to the exclusive use of magic with him.

I never said in this topic or any of the recent wants that Night elf society IS entirely around arcane practice,

Someone did.

I have agreed that magic (both arcane and nature) is integrated thoroughly in the night elves, the OP maps that out quite clearly, but it's another thing to say the entire Darnassian groups needs to become steeped in arcane magic. Do you not see hordie fans deviously insinuating a position I haven't taken in these topics to just confuse people like yourself and Isilrien into thinking I'm making unreasonable requests - not that desiring such is unreasonable, ( i have considered such a future with the night elves as a possibility before - it's not bad or wrong to desire something) - what I do know is that they feel arcane magic mastery belongs to the horde elves as does elven cities and civilization - they believe that night elves shouldn't have any of this, night elves should be elf only in name, and rather be the savage feral race that power rogue linked pictures of.

I've never seen NElfs as savages, because they never were. Their society is perhaps the most complex in-game, and unlike what other people think they never went into bloodrage, even during the vigil period.

The fact still stands, they lived witout any source of arcane magic for 10k years, and... THEY DID OK, without it.

The highborne are few, i actually defended the NElf mages back in the days, because i understood, they weren't quite Nelfs, they were a separate faction within the same race (Kaldorei).

So, again, why should things resume just around arcane magic... Just because the OP doesn't like trees. Yes, he once even made a joke about NElfs living in trees, which prooves that he doesn't like nature theme, which, hopefully, its the MAIN theme of this race, in the past 10k years.

[yana]

Literaly living in trees that are pretty much 5 star rustic cottages with the coziest feel in the world while having its fair share of detail and complexity isnt that bad lol, night elves have an unique take on that concept with various types of buildings on the trees and they also make use of caves and underground segments.

only because you dont like nature doesnt mean it isnt civilized or complex.

[Powerogue]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/X3K35tZ.jpg?2[IMG]

Chris Metzen shared some of his early concepts on what night elves should be. This is obviously not what they turned out to be AT ALL. They aren't primitive elves, nor savage feral worgen-esque elves either, the night elf was introduced as a dark elf with a wood elf half side to it, and an extensive history, lore, legacy, civilization, development, story crafted for them including multiple fantasies.


But the way he posts them holding them as some sort of proof, when it was a discarded concept piece and gleefully ignoring the other night elven art and representations, including the civilization ones, the arcane ones, the city ones, the moon priestess ones - shows you how selective and mis-leading they are being.

That was the point, you black hole of sheer density. >.<

Pointing at what the night elves WERE does not define how the night elves ARE. Those ancient sketches dotted with things that never even made it into canon are as irrelevant as you citing a highborne society 10,020 years dead (barring splinter groups no longer associated with the Darnassians like nightborne and naga) or one developer citing some of the vague inspirations of other fantasy elven archetypes they took bits from, as they do with all their lore.

"Selective and misleading" good grief. I'm not the one making threads saying Blizzard got their own lore wrong since they first wrote it. >.<

Something like "I'm not satisfied with the night elven archetype, and would like to play a race of kaldorei that exemplify traditional highborne society with the aesthetic focus on stars and magic instead. Here's some fan art I like that are customization options they should include" would be a different story. I am absolutely onboard with adding new customization options to the nightborne.

[yana]

That was the point, you black hole of sheer density. >.<

Pointing at what the night elves WERE does not define how the night elves ARE. Those ancient sketches dotted with things that never even made it into canon are as irrelevant as you citing a highborne society 10,020 years dead (barring splinter groups no longer associated with the Darnassians like nightborne and naga) or one developer citing some of the vague inspirations of other fantasy elven archetypes they took bits from, as they do with all their lore.

"Selective and misleading" good grief. I'm not the one making threads saying Blizzard got their own lore wrong since they first wrote it. >.<

Something like "I'm not satisfied with the night elven archetype, and would like to play a race of kaldorei that exemplify traditional highborne society with the aesthetic focus on stars and magic instead. Here's some fan art I like that are customization options they should include" would be a different story. I am absolutely onboard with adding new customization options to the nightborne.

yeah asking for development on that part, that is still ya know specific for the night elves in conjuction with their other themes not above them or still with a weird aristrocratic relantionship that was part of the reason why there was hatred betwen the two groups, and then providing clear wishes would be acceptable.
but these threads try to spin it around conspiracy style that it was ACTUALLY ALWAYS SUPER IMPORTANT AND BLIZZARD ARE THE ONES THAT ARE WROOOONG

[Alanar]

That was the point, you black hole of sheer density. >.<

Pointing at what the night elves WERE does not define how the night elves ARE. Those ancient sketches dotted with things that never even made it into canon are as irrelevant as you citing a highborne society 10,020 years dead (barring splinter groups no longer associated with the Darnassians like nightborne and naga) or one developer citing some of the vague inspirations of other fantasy elven archetypes they took bits from, as they do with all their lore.

"Selective and misleading" good grief. I'm not the one making threads saying Blizzard got their own lore wrong since they first wrote it. >.<

Something like "I'm not satisfied with the night elven archetype, and would like to play a race of kaldorei that exemplify traditional highborne society with the aesthetic focus on stars and magic instead. Here's some fan art I like that are customization options they should include" would be a different story. I am absolutely onboard with adding new customization options to the nightborne.

He bolded part is essentially what is going on in these threads.. there is to much focus on what they were and not what they are. I have been saying that ever since. Dont think he will listen to you tho..

The whole story of dark/wood elf that was drawn is outdated and the people who had that vision are not even working at blizzard anymore. Its foolisch to hold on these, when clearly that part has shifted over the years.. We are talking about 15 years+ here.. any one who is following or holding tight to these old visions should realy get their heads out of their asses tbh. With that logic we deserve to get old blood elves back and unpurify the sunwell to be edgy again. Sure we all want thing.. doesnt make islt realistic in the current game.

[Super Dickmann]

Something like "I'm not satisfied with the night elven archetype, and would like to play a race of kaldorei that exemplify traditional highborne society with the aesthetic focus on stars and magic instead. Here's some fan art I like that are customization options they should include" would be a different story. I am absolutely onboard with adding new customization options to the nightborne.

Telling them this is wasting your time, they know the Nightborne are everything they want and between walls of text they admit their boredom with the actual night elf identity, history and themes, but they don't like the Nightborne because they're Horde. Even the current completely neutered and cultureless Horde isn't fit for purpose, hence why they want either NB to be neutral or night elves to become Highborne-focused.

[Mace]

Telling them this is wasting your time, they know the Nightborne are everything they want and between walls of text they admit their boredom with the actual night elf identity, history and themes, but they don't like the Nightborne because they're Horde. Even the current completely neutered and cultureless Horde isn't fit for purpose, hence why they want either NB to be neutral or night elves to become Highborne-focused.

It's not a waste of time, it's just not giving any new information on the issue. Some of us have been the biggest advocates of what the Nightborne are, it has never stopped me wanting a more faithful and original screen time presentation of the night elves.

It's night and day between the total night elf package (including novels and extra material) and the on-screen, and even together it falls well short of where it could be. Most of this topic focused on bringing out or exposing what the lore actually shows about the night elves all round.

Regardless of what is focused on right now, this is what is in the race, and it is done based on what the lore says. Now as long as it remains canon, this is what there is, even if much of the screen time focus is on one tiny aspect. And as person who is drawn to other aspects, it's natural to want to see more of them or find me in threads saying they should show more of this aspect, I found that attractive too - and that's not to say I don't like the existing stuff, although currently I'm bored with it.

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He bolded part is essentially what is going on in these threads.. there is to much focus on what they were and not what they are. I have been saying that ever since. Dont think he will listen to you tho..

The whole story of dark/wood elf that was drawn is outdated and the people who had that vision are not even working at blizzard anymore. Its foolisch to hold on these, when clearly that part has shifted over the years.. We are talking about 15 years+ here.. any one who is following or holding tight to these old visions should realy get their heads out of their asses tbh. With that logic we deserve to get old blood elves back and unpurify the sunwell to be edgy again. Sure we all want thing.. doesnt make islt realistic in the current game.

That may be true, but saying this is what they "WERE" is misleading. They still ARE these things, they've just not been the focus. I wouldn't follow Enigmaddict down that rabbit hole, the guy thinks I don't see what the night elves are, but most of the time he highlights very subjectively in his push to prove that they're forest elves now.

However the truth is they are not just forest elves. The earlier lore isn't null and void, the night elves are still arcane based in their make up, they still have an arcane essence, they're still linked to the arcane blood of Azeroth, and they still have high aptitude and talent for it, they just don't have as many elves as they use to utilising that aspect of their ability unlike some of their off shoot groups, however they do have a core now that is making use of night elves greatly gifted in this.

The fact that blizzard is drawing attention tot he forest loving side currently doesn't mean the other pits don't exist. They are still kaldorei - children of the stars, not the forest, and a time will come when they'll go, ah let's switch to a different focus to keep things interesting - which is what they did in Legion when much of the focus was on the Nightborne and Highborne side.

Look at what is happening to the blood elves, they're not "The Light" elves, but we are seeing a lot of focus on that side, they're still great magisters and arcane users, and great wood elf rangers and archers, one day you'd see the focus switch from the light to the Farstriders, that won't remove the light and the arcane from blood elves or erase all the earlier lore.

[Jackstraw]

So, I was away for a couple days. Are we already at the snarky comments' part?

Because I'm failing to see where the discussion got.
Sorry.

[Sharnie786]

So, I was away for a couple days. Are we already at the snarky comments' part?

Because I'm failing to see where the discussion got.
Sorry.

discussion stands at me wanting my REGAL HAIRSTYLES AND POINTY EARS WITH MORE HIGHBOURNE OPTIONS

You gonna give me them?

[Jackstraw]

discussion stands at me wanting my REGAL HAIRSTYLES AND POINTY EARS WITH MORE HIGHBOURNE OPTIONS

You gonna give me them?

Uh, I got some latex ears and I'm the worst hair stylist ever to draw breath. So... yeah, maybe?

[Specialka]

Why are you all still responding to those two ?

[Ardenaso]

I thought I should share these community made custom models that look like the pre-Sundering Night Elves

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...arrior.326256/



https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...aptain.326257/

[Mace]

I thought I should share these community made custom models that look like the pre-Sundering Night Elves

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...arrior.326256/

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/data/ra...60cc355704.jpg

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads...aptain.326257/

[IMG]https://www.hiveworkshop.com/data/ratory-images/177/177359-76664a9f35700739021207cb6f9c6956.jpg

They actually look quite good.. well done. And yes they do have the higher calibre air of pre-sundering night elves, who'd have much greater resources, armaments/arsenal and rigour that reflects what the lore tells us they were like in that era.


I think the problem a lot of people are having with the diversity of night elves is perception.

Currently they perceive them as part of a bigger race. The alliance race. In this capacity, there seems to be room to only be one thing.

However if you perceive them as their own entire race, species persay, then, based on their actual lore, you can't discount or dismiss any of their various facets.

Take it if the world was just night elves. No one would be surprised that post apocalypse, a group of them would think its a good idea to return to simple times, one with nature and harmony and keep that going (even without the massive legion threat). The Legion threat is what justifies it's long duration and dominance in that group.

However they'd be many others of different persuasions, those who'd never have given up tech or magic like the Shen'dralar/Nightborne, those who did the nature harmony thing for a while, but wanted to start pressing forward and advancing again like the High elves, and yet others who basically are the surviving villains who were at the heart of the corruption and hubris that brought such a downfall - i.e. Naga/Satyr types. And yet many others like those sworn to dedicate their lives to hunt down and destroy the evil alien invading force (i.e. the Legion), like the Illidari.

No one would perceive night elves as just forest elves alone, because its an entire species, and there would be multiple aspects to it.

This is how I've approached the night elves. Blizzard built the race as a species/actual race of it's own. They didn't build as part of a large whole unit, like the alliance, where they would provide range/magical support (i.e. the high elves) and their identity exists only within that context.

It is this original vision that I still uphold. It hasn't been retconned or cancelled. It's just be left, night elves in wow largely operate in 1 capacity, but they have been shown to still operate in all the identities the original vision outlined. The game however does seem to emphasise one role a lot more than the rest. But I think it's just for the purpose of a game presentation that uses the night elves in the capacity of part of a bigger whole

But the actual overall project, the bigger lore that encompasses and transcends the game as it has other media outlets like comics, card games, novels, and likely other games in the future, the night elves are this full race they are.

So when I present and refer to them as a race, I am always aware of the bigger picture for them. Which is why I would specify ~Darnassians if my reference was particular to the faction group in the alliance that is largely dominated by harmony with nature.

I would like detractors to actually understand this, and the difference, and why perhaps we seem to be arguing about different points

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@Ardensao - I do wish Nigh elf models would have the option to have those standing animations in wow as opposed to the ones they currently have which I would change in an instance.

[Mace]

I said it prior Mace, but your mistake is that you conflate the lack of Arcane and Urban Civilization with the lack of CivilizationIt.

It is a lack of civilization, but it isn't a lack of culture. Kaldorei is not just defined by the legion, it's their culture whether proliferating through cities or without them in the long vigil, and it's the Priesthood that maintain this star identity and why they have remained kaldorei and not changed names to something else. This needs to be shown convincingly.


For most Darnassian night elves (not Shen'dralar or other types like the Suramar Moonguard,) they only returned to civilization after Wc3, and only partially, but this is not because they aren't civilised, or lack the capability, or any such thing, they have obviously been occupied and prioritised the Long vigil,

And you get the sense that such things don't matter nearly as much to them as they do the Highborne caste or as they did around the sundering, when its destruction was so traumatic.

The war of the ancients forged those mages and priests into tough fighters, and there was no return to the cushy life in order to stop the legion. So they didn't use the arcane to rebuild, they instead lived simply and relied on nature for their needs.

he exact impression of the night elves is a dystopian people, with one major exception, this is still the generation that lost the super advanced world, so they have all the expertise, the know how, they are highly cultured and civilised, they don't need an empire to show it.


They however need a city because of several factors, including a central base, they need to live in a world where they now have to interact with other races and no longer after fight them to destroy any one who might use magic and summon the legion. So trade needs to happen, they can focus on family, craft, the Order of Elune temples can be managed again in the very least, they need centre for diplomacy, embassies, training centres, etc.


Ideally, you would have the Highborne as separate faction reviving the civilisation of the night elves, easy to do now that Suramar is designed and the Nightborne about, the Nightborne were to be that, but since they went horde, you jus write the Highborne restoring Eldre'thalas and make a new version of it, have them gather other alliance elves and work with draenei, and build their "world leading" civilisation - basically 1 city. The main night elf body, only needs a temple and a few buildings, having gone beyond such things or tas empires or vast cities or the need for arcane wonders, and are busy either with Order of Elune mandates or druidic nature mandates in their efforts to protect the world . It's the Highborne that want the civilisation preserved / restored and are looking for the better of the people from a civilization mindset.. which just isn't that high a priority for the others.

This is one of the nuances developing the night elves further should show to give you a feel for complexity of the race and their situation and how the Highborne and civil side works and how the priest side operates (function in in both rural and urban settings) so in both, city and forest, and how the druidic side works.

But one doesn't need cities nor Arcane to be a very advanced civilization. And as of Warcraft III, the Night Elves had all the elements needed to be an extremely interesting civilization, far more than "magical elves number X".

Indeed, and the entire situation of the night elves offers something uniquely is of the span of their full story. From high civilization vast and advanced to low, and why the wiser half of the group the Hyjal lot don't really need to rebuild an empire or grand civilization despite being capable. We can use the highborne to show that side of the night elves and show they cand o it, and use the Darnassians to show that the larger body really don't care and are sort of post that phase, become wiser. The high elves offer something different, they offer an elven civilization that started from scratch, but influenced by humans in a more mixed world that has grown together - in the night elves you see what a pure elven civilization is like and what pure forest ranging elves are like in an elven based world - kalimdor shows this ancient world and the night elves are the race that tells this purer elven story and shows it.

IT's basically elves as a faction of their own, while high elves are elves in the world of humans and orcs.

So in portraying the night elves properly in game, you have to be sure to show this doesn't mean they out right reject civilization, no, that's not the night elves, as Darnassus proves, but you will see or should see a difference in the grand works of the Highborne in restoring/building a city, versus the main focus of the other night elves is more on the people (priests) and the world (druid), stopping fiends like demons ( demon hunter), .. they are a highly super intense group, you have 4 main wings that have had millennia in their ways and honed them.. they've been at their individual order goals for along time, so they would appear super intense. and super focused on those.

Blizzzard squandered their potential and is clearly more at ease with urban fantasy when it comes to elves (like a lot of people in the Western World, really - I don't think anyone can escape the imprint that urbanization and the Western point of view on civilization has on us).

I only think they haven't fully utilised the potential, the night elves re the group that offer the dystopian world from the perspective an elven race that i is immortal. It gives a unique flavour, it's not quite the dystopia you are use to, and it has surprise elements like a millennia spanning near-immortal race.. So it's plenty unique in the post-civilization lifestyle, and also offers a wing that wants it restored and have managed a city.

They wouldn't have needed to with Suramar, but since NB went horde, they can have that in Feralas which is the far west.

But what the Night Elves need is to be put in a good light while being made far more distinct from the Blood Elves and Nightborne, not to become pale copy of them.

YEs, but also not make them so far removed, they don't appear like elves at all.

Remember Nightborne are part oft he night elf culture, but currently they seem to only be like ugly blood elves void of the uniqueness that makes them a kaldorei urban culture.

There is also nothing on the kaldorei showing their own version of civilization and their ability to do it which has the contrast evident in the Darnassian wing that they choose not to do it.

After all you still need a city, which is why the Highborne are perfect for the task, and should operate as their own faction, allied et distinct from the Darnassians, having a more internationally friendly collaborative feel, than the more isolationist super independent ancient kaldorei who doesn't care about restoring their magnificence.. , as they are likely still traumatised by the sundering.

Especially in a time of global climate catastrophe approaching. The Night Elves survived an Extermination Event (the Sundering) and decided to fundamentally change their civilization. It'd be a terrible message to have them revert to their old ways because they look cooler than what they have in the current period - at least to me.

Were forced to change their civilization, big difference, and yes, the main Darnassian group have gone past that point, they are sufficiently wise to know these things aren't needed and don't particularly desire them, which is why most Darnassians leave based on i missions rather than "normal life".

However you also want to show the "normal life" side of them., So you have the Highborne group and some civilians reflect this ancient kaldorei civilization.. and oy have something very interesting with them internally as well as externally.

All race have internal politics, and external.

For night elves it's the 3 distinct factions of Highborne, druid and demon hunter - with the priests having their feet in all, but their largest area of concentration is the druidic side.

A viable Alternative
Another option would be to make Suramar neutral, sorta like Dalaran, and Shattrath city, rather than rebuild Eldre'thalas, the civilization minded night elves are living and working with the Nightborne - this is not about horde or alliance here, similar to how it is in Dalaran and Shattrath, they are working to restore devastated civilizations and lead the one in how it is done correctly, they do have a temple their with night elven and nightborne pirests and you get your example of ancient kaldorei in full civilization in full bloom like it was before the Highborne got addicted and arrogant

The main night elves, like the Draenei, operate away from this city as they are a different faction and are aligned to the alliance, this is why their capital is in Azuremyst and not Shattrath city, and in Hyjal rather than in Suramar meanwhile Silvermoon has a Nightborne wing too, and it is from Silvermoon where Nightborne horde matters are dealt with, whereas Suramar is this international night elven conglomerate focusing on restoring their lifestyle.




In this scenraio, you are easily demonstrating the kaldorei cvilization side, and the capability of the kaldorei mages through both highborne and nightborne whos become seen in a kaldorei liight, as kaldorei based horde, rather than as uglier skinnier blood elves with zero identity.


You also have the home for the night elf highborne mage fantasy too, as presumably those role playing a hgihborne mage or a highborne hunter, warrior night elf would be part of this faction capitalled in Suramar, rather than in Hyjal that continues to show your more dystopian, reclusive, but highly specialisd and dangerous night elves.

This way the Nightborne actually end up fulfilling their original mandate without joining the alliance, they remain in the horde, but also get to ally with night elves, even though it's Highborne night elves, and no one should have a problem with understanding how a city can be cross faction after playing through Dalaran twice, and Shattrath also.