The unspoken messages of Shadowlands: Calm down. Play with friends, or solo.

[Adamas102]

"I disagree with this, so it's a mental illness."

To be quite frank, you're way too full of yourself to think you're able to define what people are supposed to attribute worth to in their lives. Personally, I'd contribute mental illness to people who believe income is the only thing worth worrying about in life.

"It's JUST a JOB."

"It's JUST a RELATIONSHIP."

I suggest you come down off your high horse some time and stop being dismissive of what others assign worth in their lives.

No, too often in this day and age people seem to think that everything is just a matter of opinion. The fact that you’re now equating hobby gaming to a job or a relationship is pretty telling. I’m not here to stop you from partaking in leisure activities that you enjoy, but it’s pretty obvious that you (like many people) lack perspective. If you think getting overly upset over a video game is a perfectly acceptable response or that your quality of life is inexorably tied to a game then that’s likely a result of anything from anger management issues to addiction.

I don’t want to ignore your straw man arguments either. Income is certainly not the only thing in life that’s important, but unless you’ve never had to pay for food, shelter, clothing, education, healthcare, or literally anything, the value of income is pretty concrete and applies to everyone.

But hey, how about you go ahead and explain why WoW is so important to you that it changing (or god forbid, shutting down) would affect your life to the same extent as losing your job, or losing a close friend or family member, or any of the other things that are universally deemed as being of actual importance.

[Mozu]

No, too often in this day and age people seem to think that everything is just a matter of opinion. The fact that you’re now equating hobby gaming to a job or a relationship is pretty telling. I’m not here to stop you from partaking in leisure activities that you enjoy, but it’s pretty obvious that you (like many people) lack perspective. If you think getting overly upset over a video game is a perfectly acceptable response or that your quality of life is inexorably tied to a game then that’s likely a result of anything from anger management issues to addiction.

It's clear you're unable to get past your (incorrect) view from all the way up on your pedestal. It's funny you mention lacking perspective when yours is rooted in antiquated ideas of what constitutes a "good life."

But hey, how about you go ahead and explain why WoW is so important to you that it changing (or god forbid, shutting down) would affect your life to the same extent as losing your job, or losing a close friend or family member, or any of the other things that are universally deemed as being of actual importance.

I don't even play wow anymore, haven't for a long time, but when I did it had just as much value in my life as anything else. That's what happens when normal people spend a large amount of time on an activity, whether it's a hobby, job, or relationship. You looking down your nose at people because "kids these days don't know how to truly live!" while hilarious due to being so out of touch, is just exhausting.

[Luxeley]

Perhaps it's as simple as this is how the devs want WoW to be.

First off, WoW pundits don't speak for the entire player base. As we see on these forums there are plenty of voices for and against. There have been plenty of other decisions that some (or many) heralded as game destroying failures, and yet the game still continues. Yes, there's the angle that as a business Blizzard should be 100% focused on catering to the most numerous or vocal of their audience, but at the same time it's still a video game so it also lies in the realm of artistic expression.

If Blizzard decides that this is how they envision Covenants despite people complaining that it's going to ruin their ability to min/max then I almost feel more respect for the company for sticking to their guns. Maybe I'll hate Covenants as well, who knows.

I don't care what the WOW pundits say either, most of them suck at telling the truth. The point is - they all agree, 100% agreement on this issue. That says more than 100 former WOW players on a rapidly fading fan site speaking up for an idiotic game mechanism. I'd readily and immediately defer to the Blizz Devs if: A) they didn't regularly lie or deceive the loyal WOW fan base. B) WOW has been in a steady and unquestionable decline as far as interest, relevance and subs go during 3 of the last 4 xpacs. If the Blizzard Devs spoke from a position of unbridled success with the mechanisms of the game (anytime prior to Cata), they'd readily receive the benefit of the doubt, but the fact is - that was 10 years ago.

Three general things separate an MMO from an RPG. 1) RPGs can do more in terms of graphics because there is a significant less number of players in a given area. 2) MMOs are highly reliant of group participation in order to do relevant and competitive content. 3) traditionally speaking, MMOs have a long standing track record of taking the pulse of the community and implementing their feedback.

[Deferionus]

As someone who plays the game extremely casually I think there is merit to the worries of the convenant system. It is going to be a system hard to balance and when the inevitable tuning happens I don't want my choice to become weaker to the point I feel the need to change. Blizzard doesn't have a good track record involving these things. It would be better if the abilities and power components were readily available to switch to and the choices should impact story and character progression outside of player power. If it is not easy as respeccing then it needs to be re-evaluated.

[Adamas102]

It's clear you're unable to get past your (incorrect) view from all the way up on your pedestal. It's funny you mention lacking perspective when yours is rooted in antiquated ideas of what constitutes a "good life."

I don't even play wow anymore, haven't for a long time, but when I did it had just as much value in my life as anything else. That's what happens when normal people spend a large amount of time on an activity, whether it's a hobby, job, or relationship. You looking down your nose at people because "kids these days don't know how to truly live!" while hilarious due to being so out of touch, is just exhausting.

How old are you? Because "you're just out of touch if you can't see video games being as important as a job or relationships" sounds monumentally immature. Your entire position (which is pretty much just "well that's your opinion") would be easily explained away if you were like 16 years old. An age where your underdeveloped brain and lack of experience might make it seem normal to ascribe high levels of importance to relatively inconsequential things.

So you claim WoW had "as much value in [your] life as anything else", but it sounds like you're doing somewhat OK without the game now. So replace that with "I lost my source of income, haven't had one for a long time", or "I don't have friends or family anymore, haven't for a long time" or "My health and mental state aren't good anymore, haven't been for a long time". Do those sound of equal importance to you compared to "I don't even play wow anymore, haven't for a long time"?

"Antiquated ideas" of video games being less important than actual necessities in life. Now THAT'S hilarious.

[Mozu]

How old are you? Because "you're just out of touch if you can't see video games being as important as a job or relationships" sounds monumentally immature. Your entire position (which is pretty much just "well that's your opinion") would be easily explained away if you were like 16 years old. An age where your underdeveloped brain and lack of experience might make it seem normal to ascribe high levels of importance to relatively inconsequential things.

My 10 year old MMO-C account would be quite interesting if I were 16 right now. But, if calling me a child makes you feel better about your inability to see lifestyles outside of your own narrow view, more power to you.

So you claim WoW had "as much value in [your] life as anything else", but it sounds like you're doing somewhat OK without the game now. So replace that with "I lost my source of income, haven't had one for a long time", or "I don't have friends or family anymore, haven't for a long time" or "My health and mental state aren't good anymore, haven't been for a long time". Do those sound of equal importance to you compared to "I don't even play wow anymore, haven't for a long time"?

They, of course, aren't a 100% parallel - I know you struggle with analogy. I found other games to play immediately just as I'd find another job immediately.

"Antiquated ideas" of video games being less important than actual necessities in life. Now THAT'S hilarious.

Continuously moving the goalpost here, but I'll try to help you get back on track:

You can be just as dedicated to a hobby as you can be to a job. Are the consequences 100% equal? Absolutely not. Nothing in life is (just as losing your source of income is different than losing a good friend, though you argue that both are part of your '''acceptable''' list of important things in life). We're talking about taking a hobby as seriously as you take your job (or whatever other 'important' things you believe is universally accepted), which is absolutely fine to do. Telling people they don't put worth "in the things they *should* be putting worth in" is not only ridiculous, wrong, and divisive--but also damaging to the community as a whole.

[Demeisen]

How old are you? Because "you're just out of touch if you can't see video games being as important as a job or relationships" sounds monumentally immature. Your entire position (which is pretty much just "well that's your opinion") would be easily explained away if you were like 16 years old. An age where your underdeveloped brain and lack of experience might make it seem normal to ascribe high levels of importance to relatively inconsequential things.

So you claim WoW had "as much value in [your] life as anything else", but it sounds like you're doing somewhat OK without the game now. So replace that with "I lost my source of income, haven't had one for a long time", or "I don't have friends or family anymore, haven't for a long time" or "My health and mental state aren't good anymore, haven't been for a long time". Do those sound of equal importance to you compared to "I don't even play wow anymore, haven't for a long time"?

"Antiquated ideas" of video games being less important than actual necessities in life. Now THAT'S hilarious.

You realise you're trying to maintain a position that there's too much vitriol being thrown around, and this is "just a game", whilst simultaneously trying to support that position by making a series of armchair psychological evaluations and ad hominem attacks on a total stranger on an internet forum dedicated to a massively multiplayer online role playing game?

[GringoD]

Why would an environment's existence be contingent on other people's view of necessity? "Need to tryhard" is totally subjective, who are you to say what the activity requires? If you asked a world first raider, nothing is competitive after the world first boss kill. Poor argument, and obviously I disagree completely. Again, it's the mentality of the participants that indicate if something is a competitive environment or not.

Sure, lets say for whatever reason we have a new normal mode group that starts with a consensus to be competitive. Now you have a competitive environment.
Given that background, they'll probably start weeding out and ascending to higher difficulties.
In every other case (suddenly overzealous raid leaders enforcing top down or some people in the raid wanting to achieve more) you probably won't have a consensus. That's a lot of friction. Something will break, or people resign themselves back to comparing dicks in the dps charts. That's not a competitive environment either way.
It's just not realistic to expect a high saturation of competitive environments in content that isn't sufficiently demanding. And I wasn't per se dictating a definitive cut-off point for that, it's a curve to be sure, but if you wanna count you gotta start somewhere.

I am deriving conclusions from testable data (as I said before, try joining even a low m+ group without r.io or a competitive class and you'll see just how pervasive the competitive attitude of the wow community is).

Both aren't exactly great, but one is significantly better than the other.

Nah man, anecdotal evidence is not significantly better. Did you ever enjoy a statistics class in your life? You can't scale being declined as an enhancement shaman to how many subs are in a competitive environment.

[Mozu]

Sure, lets say for whatever reason we have a new normal mode group that starts with a consensus to be competitive. Now you have a competitive environment.

Glad we agree.

Nah man, anecdotal evidence is not significantly better. Did you ever enjoy a statistics class in your life? You can't scale being declined as an enhancement shaman to how many subs are in a competitive environment.

Ha, barring actual data you are forced to extrapolate given the information you are provided with. These aren't just personal anecdotes, but ones shared across a great many people that post about it constantly, over years, on all types of social media. A testable theory is always better than an untestable one.

I did say that both are pretty poor, though.

[Adamas102]

I don't care what the WOW pundits say either, most of them suck at telling the truth. The point is - they all agree, 100% agreement on this issue. That says more than 100 former WOW players on a rapidly fading fan site speaking up for an idiotic game mechanism. I'd readily and immediately defer to the Blizz Devs if: A) they didn't regularly lie or deceive the loyal WOW fan base. B) WOW has been in a steady and unquestionable decline as far as interest, relevance and subs go during 3 of the last 4 xpacs. If the Blizzard Devs spoke from a position of unbridled success with the mechanisms of the game (anytime prior to Cata), they'd readily receive the benefit of the doubt, but the fact is - that was 10 years ago.

Three general things separate an MMO from an RPG. 1) RPGs can do more in terms of graphics because there is a significant less number of players in a given area. 2) MMOs are highly reliant of group participation in order to do relevant and competitive content. 3) traditionally speaking, MMOs have a long standing track record of taking the pulse of the community and implementing their feedback.

You may well be right, though I feel like the complaints get worse and worse each expansion regardless of the changes being made. Perhaps that's just a result of age where the longer we go the less flexible the more vocal portion of the player base becomes. I mean, it's pretty much all coming down to people angry because they cannot (theoretically) be constantly min/maxed. Have we really gotten to the point where min/maxing is the end all be all of fun for the majority of the player base?

[goldlock]

You may well be right, though I feel like the complaints get worse and worse each expansion regardless of the changes being made. Perhaps that's just a result of age where the longer we go the less flexible the more vocal portion of the player base becomes. I mean, it's pretty much all coming down to people angry because they cannot (theoretically) be constantly min/maxed. Have we really gotten to the point where min/maxing is the end all be all of fun for the majority of the player base?

Its because they keep putting in more and more systems that require min maxing in an attempt to stop min maxing...

In tbc everyone just did talents then geared. Look at all the bloat that has been added to that simple concept and you will see why min maxing is pushed more and more.

[DemonDays]

There's not point in discussing this anymore tbh, Ion already made clear that this is they way they are sticking with for now. Some of us just have to pay the tax to switch covenants or quit until they change the system.

Can't wait to Beta test until x.2 again.

[Cosmic Janitor]

There's not point in discussing this anymore tbh, Ion already made clear that this is they way they are sticking with for now. Some of us just have to pay the tax to switch covenants or quit until they change the system.

Sadly seems to be the case. It's the system of this expansion where they clearly went all in with (like azerite) and are willing to move heaven and earth to create workarounds instead of actually adressing their flawed design idea.

[tangers58]

I expect that this thread is going to get a lot of hate, but honestly it's time to rip a bandaid off.

We've all seen the countless debates, the Preach interview, the threads, the content creators giving this or that opinion, and one thing has become clear to me reading between the lines here.

Blizzard devs do not want us to overthink the game to the point of apoplexy... and honestly I can't blame them.

Our over-analysis of every point of performance has made the game unapproachable for new players to try anything even remotely ambitious. We've created a social compact of "don't be new on my time, I've been playing X years." It's eroding the things that let content get done in a fun way, and so no wonder every new content type since M+ has been solo-capable, self-enabled via queues, and/or trinity agnostic, bringing in diverse groups but not demanding the tank/healer/DPS balance of dungeons and raids. They are developing a lot of "solo in parallel" content because having us rely on each other as strangers who are indeed each individual customers jacks our paranoia and cruelty. They're building a game that's working around a stressed out hostile environment where no one is allowed to be new because the game has been "solved" and some people make Esports money playing it, so clearly that's everyone's destiny .

The devs have understandably given up on entertaining our extreme and toxic obsession of "don't be new" or "don't have a character concept more important to you than the team's performance," because we've just lost the delineation between pick up groups and content intended for actual teams.

I play WoW on a very simple mantra: "Good enough is good enough." I'm a veteran player who knows, generally, how to play my favorite specs well enough to consider myself competent, and I don't go anywhere near content intended for a team because I can't form one regularly enough. At the same time, I haven't missed a single dungeon's story, or a raid step in the core story of the game, because I read the writing on the wall and know where my limits are. I'm not a genius, this isn't rocket science. I'm looking forward to covenants because I've selected characters that fit all four of them conceptually, and I will therefore see all four stories. I won't be in your M+ listings because my friends aren't interested in M+, therefore I don't belong there. And yet, I'll be fine. I'm not worried or even acquainted with how the covenants/soulbinds/conduits will impact the minutiae of my 30+ characters' performance because I know I can see any dungeon I need to if I have the ilvl. If there's a "mythic only" dungeon step, I can get that done too because I'm competent, or ultimately I'm patient to see it go into the queue in a patch or two.

I'm not saying everyone needs to be like me, I'm saying Blizzard developing the game with reasonable expectations that don't align with unreasonable players doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't mean we shouldn't give feedback, it doesn't mean they're perfect and we shouldn't question them, but at the end of the day, the cost of letting them "DM us" like D&D played in their world is that it IS their world. I personally am furious about elements of the lore and how they align with the game, but I respect that this is their game and their vision and if I don't like it, after giving my feedback, I can leave. I'm still here.

The messages of throwing out wild systems like covenants, two handed frost, single minded fury and other conceptual options that might not be optimal but will certainly be cool are thus:

Calm down: They are working hard to bring us their vision. Yelling at them in text or in a streamer interview only makes us look dumb.

Play with friends: There is a cutoff point where we leave "good enough to play with strangers," and the balance has to be allowed to be cushioned by "play with friends and don't stress about it, enjoy the company of friends."

...Or solo: If you can't form a team, that's ok. The game's main vein is group-approachable, and in the worst case, Torghast and the Maw, and I'd imagine most of the core of the game is solo-enabled or at least queue-enabled, gated only by item level.

Just because you were once a server first mythic+amillion superhero raid leader world champion gjillion views professional streamer twitch partner content creator guide writing analyst spreadsheet wielding god doesn't mean you still are in the context of, what is every two years, a new game. That's the hardest pill to swallow each expansion and I sympathize, but it's true. The good news is, WoW builds a personally accessible game for everyone to enjoy one account at a time, which thankfully is how we pay to play.

This has been longer than intended but if you're still here, thank you for reading, and for the Void's sake, calm down! The devs can't come out and say that, but it's clearly there between the lines!

Quite the opposite, Activison doesn't want the players thinking because Activision doesn't want to bother thinking when designing the game.

[Hinastorm]

Your reality is that people who study and figure out meta ruin the game.
??????????????

When said meta leads to stupid, unfun gameplay and mechanics, yes.

I don't blame the meta gamers, they're just doing what they're gonna do with the tools given. I blame developers, and to some extent, competitive gaming culture that seems to worship these 1%'ers.

[Surfacin9]

Not having the perfect "loadout" will not hinder your progress in 99% of the content. Using the wrong corruptions, the wrong essences, the wrong azerite traits, the wrong talents, etc. won't hinder you from finishing a +15 if you are good at what you are doing.

BUT

You are still way, way weaker than you'd be if you optimized. And in a way you are being carried by the rest of your group. Because while you can "just play how you want" the other four players will likely not be doing that. And if they did, then that +15 suddenly is in real danger of being finished, because azerite traits, essences, corruptions and talents make a big difference. It's not so big when one player does it, but it's definitely big when everyone does it. And in the end it's not fair to the rest of the group who have to pick up your slack because you "pick what sounds fun".

And all this is based upon the premise that the player who made all the wrong choices is somehow a good player who knows what he is doing! Why do you think someone who picks the wrong corruptions, the wrong essences, the wrong traits, the wrong talents, why do you think such a player will make the right decisions inside the dungeon?

I didn't imply 'all the wrong', sorry it seemed like it. Having all the wrong ones counts as half-assing. But, for example, conflict&strife and blood of the enemy were used by the majority of high m+ and top parsing players among outlaw rogues and havoc DH. Obviously there is a reason for that, since they give the biggest dps increase. But them being essences earned through pvp which many pve players don't do at all, majority of the regular raiding community weren't using them, but picked smth else they had. I personally wasn't bothered farming them until some time into 8.3 where my OCD kicked in, but until then I wasn't bothered, was performing as expected and nobody had to carry me. Heck, most of my mythic raid team didn't bother farming them and that did not hinder our progress in anyway, let alone clearing a +15.

In my experience, +15 runs were only hindered by personal player fuckups, mispulls, deaths, wipes, and not by their trait/talent/essence choice (I was doing that before corruptions could be bought, so they were not a choice).

Also I would prefer not using the word 'wrong'. The 'wrong' choices are simply less optimal, since anything they choose WILL result in some sort of dps increase. And I'm talking about the middle of the spectrum, not the absolute negative extreme, which nowadays doesn't happen very often anyway. The middle of the spectrum player is the one that uses mostly optimal systems, e.g rank 2 of the 'best' essence or r3 of the ones that are slightly behind.

Also, some of it comes down to actually getting those systems. Talents are easy to change and its pretty acceptable if someone is using a less optimal talent, in most cases its a minor impact. Azerite pieces with the 'best' traits can be RNG based, especially if the piece is available in a dungeon, so you either hope for m+ cache (low probablity) or pray to RNG for the vendor item rolling the one you need, or spend time farming residium to actually buy the required one. My friend who decided to roll a holy pala had to go though it to target their OP trait and stack it to 3. Essences are available through regular content, and u can get rank 2 without much effort, then some effort or time for rank 3. Even if you don't go for the BiS PVP ones (if they are for your class) you are not losing significantly, certainly not to a point where the rest of the group has to carry you.

[Drusin]

"don't be new on my time, I've been playing X years."

Our happy middle ground is going to be I'll just leave the group ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm not interested in teaching anyone when I'm trying to get shit done.

[Omedon]

Our happy middle ground is going to be I'll just leave the group ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm not interested in teaching anyone when I'm trying to get shit done.

This is almost always what I do too in my queued difficulty runs when someone is being objectively toxic or is beyond saving performance-wise, as we are never entitled to each other’s time.

....Which is yet another reason why I don’t PUG M+, because in that observation of “not entitled to my time,” I’m a “toxic leaver” (gods don’t get me started on the absurdity of that concept) absolutely waiting to happen! This is yet another layer to my never agreeing with the idea of M+ being “PUG content” by design intent.

[kranur]

The only part I agree with is calm down ... as in Calm down, play it for a month or two and then stop ... all these "systems" are going to blow up in their faces anyway.

The only thing they're working hard on is the attempts to make you farm forever through extreme rng, thinking you'll never quit.

[Soon-TM]

You say we shouldn't care what he says.

You completely misunderstood, or misrepresented, what I said. But thanks for trying