[Balance] Shadowlands Class Updates

[huth]

So stupid. This shit was NEVER needed, who tf stood up one day and said "I think Druids need Astral Power" when they were JUST fine? Astral Power, Maelstrom, Insanity... All useless and should've never been added.

Anybody who wanted a more nuanced version of WoD SS charges, because that's effectively what AP is.

[Roxxy]

I won't be playing balance if they bring the eclipse bar back, it was always super clunky to me and didn't flow well and I didn't enjoy it so I never played it before legion.

[huth]

I won't be playing balance if they bring the eclipse bar back, it was always super clunky to me and didn't flow well and I didn't enjoy it so I never played it before legion.

Well, that's not the version we're getting for SL at least. That one's closer to what we had back in WotLK, before we got the Eclipse bar.

It's not really that big a change from BfA, except you'll be pressing 111222 instead of 121212.

[Roxxy]

Well, that's not the version we're getting for SL at least. That one's closer to what we had back in WotLK, before we got the Eclipse bar.

It's not really that big a change from BfA, except you'll be pressing 111222 instead of 121212.

I didn't even mention a version, I said I didn't play balance before legion, legion was the first expac that there was no eclipse bar and we moved to astral power. All versions of the eclipse bar didn't appeal to me because of the annoyance that I'd be halfway through a cast hit eclipse and be casting the wrong spell.

[Lahis]

I didn't even mention a version, I said I didn't play balance before legion, legion was the first expac that there was no eclipse bar and we moved to astral power. All versions of the eclipse bar didn't appeal to me because of the annoyance that I'd be halfway through a cast hit eclipse and be casting the wrong spell.

You won't hit Eclipse mid cast. Only finished casts count.

[Roxxy]

That sounds better then. The only other problem I can see would be if wrath is still single target but lunarstrike multiple, it just won't feel good having to cast wrath when there are enemies piled up. Edit: just read the first page where this is discussed. I feel like I'm late to the part discussing this. I think I'll just bow out.

[GringoD]

Unless the souldbinds give us free teleport spell, they won't change a thing.

I don't really know... like, if Displacer Beast had been on the same row as damage talents, would you have taken it?
Venthyr port is strong in M+ to skip no question. Depends what the skips demand though. We do have stealth and Wild Charge already in the kit.
If you wanna move quickly in raid combat we have again Wild Charge or Tiger Rush.

What I'm trying to say is that Venthyr port doesn't feel mandatory enough for moonkin to outweigh more output in combination to whatever utility the others provide. So I'd rather wait and see until the numbers roll in.

[Lahis]

I don't really know... like, if Displacer Beast had been on the same row as damage talents, would you have taken it?
Venthyr port is strong in M+ to skip no question. Depends what the skips demand though. We do have stealth and Wild Charge already in the kit.
If you wanna move quickly in raid combat we have again Wild Charge or Tiger Rush.

What I'm trying to say is that Venthyr port doesn't feel mandatory enough for moonkin to outweigh more output in combination to whatever utility the others provide. So I'd rather wait and see until the numbers roll in.

Venthyr also come with the best DPS CD ability.

So there is zero reason to pick any others.

[GringoD]

Venthyr also come with the best DPS CD ability.

So there is zero reason to pick any others.

Assuming status quo among the spells is going live as is.
And soulbinds of another cov don't hit it out of the park.

[Great Destiny Man]

I don't really know... like, if Displacer Beast had been on the same row as damage talents, would you have taken it?
Venthyr port is strong in M+ to skip no question. Depends what the skips demand though. We do have stealth and Wild Charge already in the kit.
If you wanna move quickly in raid combat we have again Wild Charge or Tiger Rush.

What I'm trying to say is that Venthyr port doesn't feel mandatory enough for moonkin to outweigh more output in combination to whatever utility the others provide. So I'd rather wait and see until the numbers roll in.

In terms of minimising damage loss on heavy movement, Door of Shadows is a lot more useful than WC or Tiger Dash. I also assume it'll work same way as DB/Blink so that you can teleport through wall/ring AoE effects, providing an easy counter to that.

Also I had a scan through the soulbinds yesterday and to me, Venthyr ones really stick out as being far more useful for us than the ones from other Covenants. Obviously everything can change during the Beta but combine that, door of shadows and the haste buff from the class ability and it does seem that Venthyr overall seems to be a very strong choice.

[Niwes]

Well, that's not the version we're getting for SL at least. That one's closer to what we had back in WotLK, before we got the Eclipse bar.

It's not really that big a change from BfA, except you'll be pressing 111222 instead of 121212.

imo thats a good change (if its only that and not watching this stupid bar).

i personally like it way more to cast 1 of the 2 spells 3 times in a row like
- slow cast
- slow cast
- slow cast
- fast cast
- fast cast
- fast cast

than switching all the time (BfA version) like
slow cast
fast cast
slow cast
fast cast
slow cast
fast cast

First one feels more fluent and natural to me.

Hopefully Lunar Strike is not THAT slow it was once in the past but keeps up his speed with the buffed version from BfA. Owl was nice to play in BfA, cause it was fast paced. Not wanna play Owl with 3 quick wrathes and 3 never ending loooooong 2,5s+ Lunar Strike casts. Would HATE that.

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So stupid. This shit was NEVER needed, who tf stood up one day and said "I think Druids need Astral Power" when they were JUST fine? Astral Power, Maelstrom, Insanity... All useless and should've never been added.

they did this (iirc in WoD) because at this time they started to streamline ALL things in the game. they called it QoL changes, but in reality they just wanna made the game more easy to maintain to make it more cost effective. this is what you usually do, whenn you wanna go into milkthecow mode.

and for this reason they gave ALL specs a resource bar to implement the same builder/consumer pattern. its easy to maintain when streamlined.

[huth]

I didn't even mention a version, I said I didn't play balance before legion, legion was the first expac that there was no eclipse bar and we moved to astral power. All versions of the eclipse bar didn't appeal to me because of the annoyance that I'd be halfway through a cast hit eclipse and be casting the wrong spell.

The only Eclipse bar that could do that was in WoD, and that one was on a fixed timer so you'd know exactly when you'd change. Every incarnation before that was based on spells cast and as such couldn't happen midcast. The Bar also wasn't introduced until Cataclysm. Legion was the third expansion to not feature it.

No version of Eclipse would suddenly unexpectedly drop on you midcast. Your complaint is about something that has never actually been possible.

Hopefully Lunar Strike is not THAT slow it was once in the past but keeps up his speed with the buffed version from BfA. Owl was nice to play in BfA, cause it was fast paced. Not wanna play Owl with 3 quick wrathes and 3 never ending loooooong 2,5s+ Lunar Strike casts. Would HATE that.

Eclipse reduces the cast time less than Empowerment, but still reduces it. The only other change done to LS was renaming it to Starfire, as if we didn't have enough spells abbreviating to SF already. Other than that, it's identical to BfA LS.

Astral Power is something of a Legion refinement of the 3 shared SS/Starfall charges we had in WoD. The actual power bar is from Legion, but the concept was introduced in WoD already.

[PickleballAce]

imo thats a good change (if its only that and not watching this stupid bar).

i personally like it way more to cast 1 of the 2 spells 3 times in a row like
- slow cast
- slow cast
- slow cast
- fast cast
- fast cast
- fast cast

than switching all the time (BfA version) like
slow cast
fast cast
slow cast
fast cast
slow cast
fast cast

First one feels more fluent and natural to me.

Fucking thank you!

Constantly alternating wrath and starfire is janky as fuck and I can't fathom why anybody likes it. It feels like you're riding in the car with someone learning to drive and they're hitting the accelerator, then the brake, then the accelerator, then the brake. It's awful. Hopefully Streaking Stars never sees the light of day again.

That doesn't mean that spamming the same spell over and over again like Vanilla is ideal, but chaining a few casts together feels so much better to me.

[Niwes]

The only Eclipse bar that could do that was in WoD, and that one was on a fixed timer so you'd know exactly when you'd change. Every incarnation before that was based on spells cast and as such couldn't happen midcast. The Bar also wasn't introduced until Cataclysm. Legion was the third expansion to not feature it.

No version of Eclipse would suddenly unexpectedly drop on you midcast. Your complaint is about something that has never actually been possible.


Eclipse reduces the cast time less than Empowerment, but still reduces it. The only other change done to LS was renaming it to Starfire, as if we didn't have enough spells abbreviating to SF already. Other than that, it's identical to BfA LS.

Astral Power is something of a Legion refinement of the 3 shared SS/Starfall charges we had in WoD. The actual power bar is from Legion, but the concept was introduced in WoD already.

can you define „less“ here, in beta, at the moment ?

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Fucking thank you!

Constantly alternating wrath and starfire is janky as fuck and I can't fathom why anybody likes it. It feels like you're riding in the car with someone learning to drive and they're hitting the accelerator, then the brake, then the accelerator, then the brake. It's awful. Hopefully Streaking Stars never sees the light of day again.

That doesn't mean that spamming the same spell over and over again like Vanilla is ideal, but chaining a few casts together feels so much better to me.

yep, 100% agree. the car picture in my mind made me smile it hits the nail perfectly.

[TickTickTick]

So I was testing the raid yesterday.

Things I noticed as balance:

- Convoke the Spirit is underwhelming as fuck. I honestly don't see a reason why anyone would take it. Yes, animation is nice, but overall effect? Meh.
- Door of Shadows is great. I've found two good uses for it just yesterday alone: on Hungering Destroyer when the raid must spread for a moment, and on Lady Inerva to catch the Bottled Anima. Choosing an exact place to which you want to teleport is super helpful for doing mechanics
- Ravenous Frenzy... oh boy. This + bloodlust + incarnation: chosen of elune (i think the fact that we lose streaking stars and CE giving crit only will make this talent dominant on this row), I was able to get as many as 40 stacks, which is 80% haste AND damage done. Extra bonus if you're able to time it with Thrill Seeker (Nadjia soulbind). Considering the fact that at the begining our haste is so small, such a huge boost makes a lot of difference. I was able to maintain the double eclipse almost for the entirety of incarnation (was a bit laggy, no idea how would it go on live). This is, imo, the must go-to covenant, no question.
- Starfall area is huuuuuge
- Starsurge costs 30 astral power now. Not sure if it was announced anywhere (i cant remember, probably was). Feels nice for these must-burn moments, being able to throw 3 starsurges in a row
- the auras behind different eclipses are kind of messy right now. You get a visual aura at the center of the screen, but it disappears after one cast, even though it should be visible for the entirety of the specific eclipse. The ability on the ability bar sometimes flashes and sometimes not. It also shows "charges" for wrath and starfire, indicating how many you must cast to start the eclipse - the problem is, on multiple occassions i've seen a spell having 3 charges, and indeed I had to cast it 3 times to enter eclipse. So it's kind of buggy right now.

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can you define „less“ here, in beta, at the moment ?

Base cast time reduce is 15%, which can be increased to 20% with Soul of the Forest talent.

[Lahis]

- Door of Shadows is great. I've found two good uses for it just yesterday alone: on Hungering Destroyer when the raid must spread for a moment, and on Lady Inerva to catch the Bottled Anima. Choosing an exact place to which you want to teleport is super helpful for doing mechanics
- Ravenous Frenzy... oh boy. This + bloodlust + incarnation: chosen of elune (i think the fact that we lose streaking stars and CE giving crit only will make this talent dominant on this row), I was able to get as many as 40 stacks, which is 80% haste AND damage done. Extra bonus if you're able to time it with Thrill Seeker (Nadjia soulbind). Considering the fact that at the begining our haste is so small, such a huge boost makes a lot of difference. I was able to maintain the double eclipse almost for the entirety of incarnation (was a bit laggy, no idea how would it go on live). This is, imo, the must go-to covenant, no question.

Fuck, I really wanted to go Night Fae. Nothing in Venthyr interests me.

[Illusions]

I wonder how many pugs will deny people based on their covenant choices. I'm going Night Fae no matter what, but their ability really underwhelms me. At least they haven't gotten to tuning yet, so I suppose currently you're supposed to rather test the mechanics, yes?

[Great Destiny Man]

I wonder how many pugs will deny people based on their covenant choices. I'm going Night Fae no matter what, but their ability really underwhelms me. At least they haven't gotten to tuning yet, so I suppose currently you're supposed to rather test the mechanics, yes?

Depends on the content I guess. Unless you've got a very specific strategy using specific Covenant abilities I presume raids will be the same old "link AoTC" or R.Io inspection for kills.

M+ wise, probably more selective from mid-high keys where strategies matter. People at the lower range are just going to be happy with people knowing wtf is going on in the dungeon.

[Illusions]

Depends on the content I guess. Unless you've got a very specific strategy using specific Covenant abilities I presume raids will be the same old "link AoTC" or R.Io inspection for kills.

M+ wise, probably more selective from mid-high keys where strategies matter. People at the lower range are just going to be happy with people knowing wtf is going on in the dungeon.

Then it's probably fine and I'm just left with a boring spell. I just kinda hate the look of the other covenants and I'm a night elf main, so Night Fae is the only 'correct' place to go. Oh well, hopefully I won't run into dumb people all too much then, probably not trying to go for very high keys anyway.

[exochaft]

yep, 100% agree. the car picture in my mind made me smile it hits the nail perfectly.

You guys must have some really weird cars or driving habits, as the rotation doesn't feel like that at all, especially at higher haste levels. The default Streaking Stars rotation is certainly rhythmic, but by no means janky. Even with Streaking Stars, fairly frequently it doesn't make sense to alternate SW/SF casts due to preparing for movement/pooling, or uneven empowerments. If I did have a complaint or two about the moonkin rotation in BfA, empowerments were way too frequent and Starfall was underpowered/ineffectual for most content/scenarios. Otherwise, the rotation was smooth and fairly adaptable to different scenarios, and the addition of Streaking Stars actually improved the baseline kit. If anything, we can chalk it up to differences of opinion, which is perfectly fine.

Still am a bit concerned about the state of moonkins on the beta when it comes to Venthyr. I still hold the opinion that Door of Shadows, regardless of class/spec, is way too good in all content in the game compared to the other covenant abilities, even adding the others perks in to try to tip the scales. From the Kyrian changes, I think Blizz is trying to make something actually compete with Ravenous Frenzy for boomies (I'll have to get that tested at some point). Unfortunately, even if RF is slightly inferior to other covenant spell options, the power/flexibility/universal application of Door of Shadows would probably still drive people to Venthyr. Maybe Blizz is viewing abilities like Door of Shadows and Soulshape as just utilities, but in practice they tend to be throughput gains on top of utility, which is why the balance feels so off right now. Covenant tuning on the beta still has quite a ways to go for boomies right now, and I'm curious if Blizz will do something major with Venthyr in an upcoming build.

I'm still wanting to go Night Fae on my druid, but right now it feels like I'll need to go Venthyr due to how powerful the package is. I'd be fine if Convoke was less throughput than RF (as long as they're semi-close, or both are good in different scenarios), it's that bloody Door of Shadows that's the issue.