Star Wars: John Favreau's Sequel Retcon Rumors [Discussion]

[PaladinSum]

But they still noticed. They knew something was up but not the extent. With in minutes of being back on the ship he is asked to submit his blaster for inspection and report to Phasma's division. You are complaining because they are not omnipotent future seeing mind readers. Is it a bit sloppy? Maybe. Is it over confidence? Sure. The entire first order was built on Arrogance.

I would question more why Poe was left without watchers rather then a storm trooper not being treated as a prisoner just because he seems to be going against training.

Because they are ridiculously incompetent. The fact these two managed to get on the tie fighter is a testament that it goes beyond being arrogant to just straight up wanting to fail. Cameras exist in the sequel trilogy. But I guess they don't believe in escorting high risk individuals.

It's not about forseeing that one loose soldier will cost them Starkiller base. It's as simple as letting a mentally compromised soldier wander free is a big risk. He could have just gone to the reactor and killed them all. He could have shot leadership. Fucking with people's minds tends to fuck them up.

[rhorle]

I would say the issue is internal consistency and pulpy adventures are not mutually exclusive, you can have both. What is the benefit of not trying to maintain consistency? Especially in a series that is supposed to be telling 1 continuous story. People took issue with Disney dropping all internal consistency in favor of "The force did it".

But if consistency is the goal then why are you prescribing things to "rule of cool" more then "space magic"? That is the point that I believe they were getting at. That people pick and choose when "rule of cool" or "space magic" applies with out consistency. It all depends on what they like and how the perceive the stuff. Star Wars is all just a mish mash of silly stories that don't really match up under scrutiny.

They will never make 100% logical sense. And decisions and stuff will seem dumb. Like why send the Deathstar to blow up Yavin 4? Why not cruise to some of the planets supporting the rebels? Or the whole "one straight shaft to the core no one ever noticed that proton torpedo can be guided to with the force by an inexperienced force user".

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Because they are ridiculously incompetent. The fact these two managed to get on the tie fighter is a testament that it goes beyond being arrogant to just straight up wanting to fail. Cameras exist in the sequel trilogy. But I guess they don't believe in escorting high risk individuals. It's not about forseeing that one loose soldier will cost them Starkiller base. It's as simple as letting a mentally compromised soldier wander free is a big risk. He could have just gone to the reactor and killed them all. He could have shot leadership. Fucking with people's minds tends to fuck them up.

You are under estimating the power of blending in. There is a reason why in the real world people suggest you wear a hard hat and carry a clip board if you want to go places with out question. Because people just assume you are meant to be there. They didn't question a storm trooper escorting a prisoner because why would they? It fits in.

But they didn't know to what extent he was mentally compromised. They are not mind readers. You are arguing from what we the viewers know versus what they knew. Viewers often know more then the in-fiction characters do in that moment. It is part of story telling. They knew something was up but wasn't sure. You don't treat any oddity as full blown traitor or you might cause a cascading effect. Like happened with Company 77.

[PaladinSum]

But if consistency is the goal then why are you prescribing things to "rule of cool" more then "space magic"? That is the point that I believe they were getting at. That people pick and choose when "rule of cool" or "space magic" applies with out consistency. It all depends on what they like and how the perceive the stuff. Star Wars is all just a mish mash of silly stories that don't really match up under scrutiny.

They will never make 100% logical sense. And decisions and stuff will seem dumb. Like why send the Deathstar to blow up Yavin 4? Why not cruise to some of the planets supporting the rebels? Or the whole "one straight shaft to the core no one ever noticed that proton torpedo can be guided to with the force by an inexperienced force user".

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You are under estimating the power of blending in. There is a reason why in the real world people suggest you wear a hard hat and carry a clip board if you want to go places with out question. Because people just assume you are meant to be there. They didn't question a storm trooper escorting a prisoner because why would they? It fits in.

But they didn't know to what extent he was mentally compromised. They are not mind readers. You are arguing from what we the viewers know versus what they knew. Viewers often know more then the in-fiction characters do in that moment. It is part of story telling. They knew something was up but wasn't sure. You don't treat any oddity as full blown traitor or you might cause a cascading effect. Like happened with Company 77.

But the republic pilot, an extremely high value target, with a single escort going to the hangar bay? That is very suspicious. And, again, cameras exist. Fuck, there should be one pointed at whatever cell Poe was in.

Here's an opinion. That would be better. Have the overreaction to his programming slipping trigger an insurrection that helps cover an escape. Instead of everyone being asleep enough for that escape to go down.

[rhorle]

But the republic pilot, an extremely high value target, with a single escort going to the hangar bay? That is very suspicious. And, again, cameras exist. Fuck, there should be one pointed at whatever cell Poe was in. Here's an opinion. That would be better. Have the overreaction to his programming slipping trigger an insurrection that helps cover an escape. Instead of everyone being asleep enough for that escape to go down.

You think it is suspicious because you the viewer can infer what is going on and know that Storm Trooper is really Finn trying to escape. The only silly part is that Poe was unguarded in the first place. Poe being escorted around a secure ship by one trooper isn't really that odd.

How would your way be better? It requires everyone else to have their programming slip as well. We know from the planet's surface that no other troopers acted that way. But you want to magically make it happen? The hilarious thing is you think this would be better after you just got done saying how the First Order should have noticed a single soldier acting funny. But now you want them to not notice a whole bunch of soldiers?

[PaladinSum]

You think it is suspicious because you the viewer can infer what is going on and know that Storm Trooper is really Finn trying to escape. The only silly part is that Poe was unguarded in the first place. Poe being escorted around a secure ship by one trooper isn't really that odd.

How would your way be better? It requires everyone else to have their programming slip as well. We know from the planet's surface that no other troopers acted that way. But you want to magically make it happen? The hilarious thing is you think this would be better after you just got done saying how the First Order should have noticed a single soldier acting funny. But now you want them to not notice a whole bunch of soldiers?

You don't have to have your programming break to be pissed at the superiors for taking your brother in arms against their will. Based on the guy who calls Finn a traitor, brainwashed soldiers are loyal to each other. It's hilarious you think I'm calling for another Jannah to happen. But, let's have fun.

Was every soldier on the planet every soldier on that ship? If Finn doesn't require immediate action, why would anyone else? If they're incompetent enough to not have a guard on Poe's cell, why is it ridiculous they are too incompetent to maintain their soldiers?

[rhorle]

You don't have to have your programming break to be pissed at the superiors for taking your brother in arms against their will. Based on the guy who calls Finn a traitor, brainwashed soldiers are loyal to each other. It's hilarious you think I'm calling for another Jannah to happen. But, let's have fun.

Yes you do. Because that is the whole point of being programmed. It isn't about being loyal to your brother in arms but loyal to the First Order. You literally called for an insurrection on board. That is what a mutiny is and exactly what Company 77 did. It is weird how you create these double standards of where things don't apply when you argue them but do when others argue them.

Finn was also called a traitor on Takodana. Which was win he was already in deep with the Resistance and actively fighting the First Order. He wasn't calling him a traitor to the platoon but a traitor to the First Order.

[PaladinSum]

Yes you do. Because that is the whole point of being programmed. It isn't about being loyal to your brother in arms but loyal to the First Order. You literally called for an insurrection on board. That is what a mutiny is and exactly what Company 77 did. It is weird how you create these double standards of where things don't apply when you argue them but do when others argue them.

Finn was also called a traitor on Takodana. Which was win he was already in deep with the Resistance and actively fighting the First Order. He wasn't calling him a traitor to the platoon but a traitor to the First Order.

Weird. You mean how you defend things with the incompetence card but finger wag at me for the same? If my insurrection is so absurd, so is Finn being allowed to wander since they're so on top of indoctrination.

Edit: Come at it like this. If Brainwashing keeps them so loyal that insurrection is impossible, why would it be a risk to go aggressive on Finn?

[rhorle]

Weird. You mean how you defend things with the incompetence card but finger wag at me for the same? If my insurrection is so absurd, so is Finn being allowed to wander since they're so on top of indoctrination.Edit: Come at it like this. If Brainwashing keeps them so loyal that insurrection is impossible, why would it be a risk to go aggressive on Finn?

I didn't defend anything with an incompetence card. You literally did though then suggested an idea that went against it. Stop being a devils advocate for no reason at all. Again they are not mind readers. They are not able to see the future. They didn't know what was up with Finn only that something was up. This all started from you die hard arguing that they didn't notice him at all and just further moves the goal posts in whatever quest you have to remain correct.

Insurrection isn't impossible. Insurrection for your idea is implausible. They didn't go super aggressive on Finn because it could have caused insurrection if it it was nothing. It could have been a blaster malfunction. There are plenty of plausible explanations.

[PaladinSum]

I didn't defend anything with an incompetence card. You literally did though then suggested an idea that went against it. Stop being a devils advocate for no reason at all. Again they are not mind readers. They are not able to see the future. They didn't know what was up with Finn only that something was up. This all started from you die hard arguing that they didn't notice him at all and just further moves the goal posts in whatever quest you have to remain correct.

Insurrection isn't impossible. Insurrection for your idea is implausible. They didn't go super aggressive on Finn because it could have caused insurrection if it it was nothing. It could have been a blaster malfunction. There are plenty of plausible explanations.

How? If jostling Finn could do it, then seeing Finn get grabbed should be a completely viable cause of insurrection.

It can also be the guy stammering to tell you about a weapon malfunction you had to ask him about instead of immediately reporting it to his superiors like a good brainwashed soldier would is suspect. There's plenty of reasons to assume he's in need of a touch up as it is to assume his weapon fucked up.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

disney won't and shouldn't retcon the sequels. i'm not exactly a fan of the sequels, but they exist and i'd much rather disney move forward with what they have.

they can make those sequels better with some work. look at what the clone wars did for the prequels.

[rhorle]

How? If jostling Finn could do it, then seeing Finn get grabbed should be a completely viable cause of insurrection.

Because you have this weird fixation that the loyalty the first order programmed into the soldiers was to each soldier. It wouldn't be. It would be to the first order and to follow orders. They already suspected something might be wrong. I don't know why you keep saying that isn't the case. You keep moving all around. Going from they never noticed, to they should have locked him up right away, to why wouldn't his fellow soldiers revolt, to it should have been clear he needed a touch up.

I'm not even sure if you really get what point you are trying to argue anymore or if you are just arguing to argue.

[Triceron]

Oh who could have guessed, someone with the "Doomcock" and anyone who used him a source just might be completly bat shit crazy

Can't really take anything Doomcock says seriously. Half of his content is spent on explaining how he's just talking about rumors and everyone should take it with a grain of salt, and it might not happen the way he says it but his sources are 100% confident and be believes in them.

Yeah, that's how wish fulfilling bullshit works too.

[qwerty123456]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mil...isarmament_Act

The de-militiarlization was proposed from the very moment the New Republic formed. They used it to help convince the Imperials to sign the peace treaty and because of the values the New Republic was standing for. Where the Chancellor didn't control military might. It didn't all occur with in a month of the end of the war. But did start there as Mon Mothma is also saying that they needed to stay vigilant of threats for a while after the treaty was signed. The resistence wasn't formed unil 28 ABY so there were still some Military strength and wasn't instantly done a month later. But again a month, or whatever time doesn't matter. They wanted to have a peace, and not military might, government. A stupid choice in hindsight but politics are politics.

No where has the lore stated a wayfinder is required to do in the moment calculations. It has only ever been needed to find the place when people don't know how to get there. You even contradict yourself by saying Rey could transmit the route with out each ship needing the wayfinder. Which means once a person travels there they can simply share the route. The Wayfinder, as you just stated, is simply for people that do not know how to get there.

The movies actually have her transmitting her path, as she takes it, to the Resistance. Finn literally says she is showing us the way as it cuts to shots of her navigating the space surrounding the planet. We know the path can't change otherwise the Sith Wayfinders would be useless if not constantly updated. So once you know the path you know it. Which is also how Kylo gets there. Since he destroyed the Deathstar Wayfinder, and Rey took his.

A Sith would certainly tell Kylo anything they need to in order to fulfill their goals. The question is did you watch the movies because Palapatine still had Anakin using the light side of the force while he was slowly corrupting him and guiding him to the dark side of the force.

They started disarming a month after the official end of the war. Clearly I'm not saying they disabled all ships and got all the military personal new jobs in a month. I'm saying they said "jobs done" after a month of "peace" and then started shutting shit down. And this occurs after they wait several months before they launch their final attack. If it takes you 6 months to plan an attack why wouldn't you assume the enemy might take equally long to do a counter attack??

A path through what is basically a mine field. Its not to find where to go its to find how to get through. I never contradicted myself cause no body could do that shit from memory. If a ship recorded how to get through the mine field they could use that path but its not like Rey herself knows you go to quadrant 6 to get to Exegol which is what it sounds like you are saying. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what your saying and we are actually saying the same thing. I'm saying you need it to navigate a maze(then send the path to your buddies) while it sounds like you are saying the wayfinder said Exegol is at (23.6, 99.81)

Snoke already had Kylo while Palpatine still didn't have Anakin and both people were being corrupted in different circumstances. Kylo being told see look how your evil Uncle was going to kill you just because you had a lil dark in you, while Anakin was being told hey I heard the Sith can save loved ones.

[Fayolynn]

But if consistency is the goal then why are you prescribing things to "rule of cool" more then "space magic"? That is the point that I believe they were getting at. That people pick and choose when "rule of cool" or "space magic" applies with out consistency. It all depends on what they like and how the perceive the stuff. Star Wars is all just a mish mash of silly stories that don't really match up under scrutiny.

They will never make 100% logical sense. And decisions and stuff will seem dumb. Like why send the Deathstar to blow up Yavin 4? Why not cruise to some of the planets supporting the rebels? Or the whole "one straight shaft to the core no one ever noticed that proton torpedo can be guided to with the force by an inexperienced force user".

I think the disconnect here is "space magic" and consistency are not mutually exclusive. Consistency just means don't change how space magic works constantly to fit the new narrative. It removes all tension from a story when every situation can be solved by ever changing space magic.

Other than some minor issues (IE Obi-wan wasn't trained by Yoda like he claimed in ESB) how do the original 6 movies not hold up to scrutiny?

Like why send the Deathstar to blow up Yavin 4?

Why wouldn't they go to Yavin 4 first? The rebels are there, the plans are there. Remove the threat then continue on to the other planets if need be.

Or the whole "one straight shaft to the core no one ever noticed that proton torpedo can be guided to with the force by an inexperienced force user"

I'm confused what your issue with this is? Is it that there was a design flaw with the Death Star in the first place or was it the fact that Luke made the shot? Side note, Luke didn't guide the torpedo with the force. He used the force to know when to take his shot.

[rhorle]

A path through what is basically a mine field. Its not to find where to go its to find how to get through. I never contradicted myself cause no body could do that shit from memory. If a ship recorded how to get through the mine field they could use that path but its not like Rey herself knows you go to quadrant 6 to get to Exegol which is what it sounds like you are saying. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what your saying and we are actually saying the same thing. I'm saying you need it to navigate a maze(then send the path to your buddies) while it sounds like you are saying the wayfinder said Exegol is at (23.6, 99.81)

You are saying something completely different now then what you originally were saying. You kept arguing that you need a wayfinder to travel to and from Exegol. So the son, snoke, everyone who left didn't make sense. That isn't true. The Wayfinders are the map. Once you know the way you know the way. Your navigational computer can record and store what the wayfinder transmitted. Just as happened with Rey. She transmitted navigation course markers to the Resistance. So if someone has those course markers they don't need a wayfinder.

So anyone can travel to or from Exegol if they already have the route. The Wayfinders provide the route and nothing more. It doesn't matter if Snoke had X or if it was different circumstances. You said a Sith won't encourage a person to use the light side of the force. We know that is a lie because Sidious still encourage Anakin to use the Light side for a time.

[PACOX]

I think the disconnect here is "space magic" and consistency are not mutually exclusive. Consistency just means don't change how space magic works constantly to fit the new narrative. It removes all tension from a story when every situation can be solved by ever changing space magic.

Other than some minor issues (IE Obi-wan wasn't trained by Yoda like he claimed in ESB) how do the original 6 movies not hold up to scrutiny?

Like why send the Deathstar to blow up Yavin 4?

Why wouldn't they go to Yavin 4 first? The rebels are there, the plans are there. Remove the threat then continue on to the other planets if need be.

Or the whole "one straight shaft to the core no one ever noticed that proton torpedo can be guided to with the force by an inexperienced force user"

I'm confused what your issue with this is? Is it that there was a design flaw with the Death Star in the first place or was it the fact that Luke made the shot? Side note, Luke didn't guide the torpedo with the force. He used the force to know when to take his shot.

Oh I can do the Death Star. Why didn't the Empire just jump in range of Yavin 4 or lead with a assault first. Why expose your neck as much as they did in ANH especially when they knew they lost the initiative?

Why would Palpatine commit basically the same mistake as the DS1 where he allowed his fleet to amass at a single point of failure? A point of failure that wasn't even complete. You would have think they would have quadrupled the garrison around the DS2 and not allow leadership around it until it was finished.

Why would a Sith try to recruit his apprentices son while having his apprentice kill the son at the same time. Anyone could see the conflict of interest. Of course the apprentice would take the opportunity to overthrow his master with with the ideal apprentice standing right in front of him. It's not like Vader wasn't carrying the Imperial military at that point (and that's before extra material fleshed out the details).

How was that no one knew Leia was Force sensitive until RotJ but sensing Luke was easy?

Everything thing about Ewoks. Every gahdamn thing.

[rhorle]

I think the disconnect here is "space magic" and consistency are not mutually exclusive. Consistency just means don't change how space magic works constantly to fit the new narrative. It removes all tension from a story when every situation can be solved by ever changing space magic.

That still doesn't explain why you used "rule of cool" arbitrary instead of using "space magic". That is the problem. You are hand waving away the very problem being talked about because you want to call it "rule of cool" instead of acknowledging that space magic is used to solve problems all the time. Pretty much every situation in Star Wars is solved by space magic, or some other equally silly thing. There is no real tension.

[Fayolynn]

Oh I can do the Death Star. Why didn't the Empire just jump in range of Yavin 4 or lead with a assault first. Why expose your neck as much as they did in ANH especially when they knew they lost the initiative?

They tried to jump into range of the rebel base but due to the movement of planets and moons the mass of Yavin (the gas giant) pulled the Deathstar out of hyperspace while Yavin 4 was on the other side of the planet which then meant they had to go the long way around. This is my best guess for what happened because its not explained in the film itself.

I don't get why you think they lost the initiative. They placed a beacon on the Falcon specifically to learn the location of the Rebel base so they could blow up the planet it was on and end the rebellion. It wasn't until well after the attack was underway that they learned their could be a danger to the Deathstar. Specifically Gold Squadron make a run on the trench, shortly after one of the officers briefs Tarkin that there is a danger to the station. At this point they are around 3 minutes away from being able to fire on Yavin 4. The rebels are still fighting an uphill battle against the station on very limited time. The Empire still has the initiative.

Why would Palpatine commit basically the same mistake as the DS1 where he allowed his fleet to amass at a single point of failure? A point of failure that wasn't even complete. You would have think they would have quadrupled the garrison around the DS2 and not allow leadership around it until it was finished.

Literally spelled out in the movie.

https://imgur.com/AWoEjvH

Why would a Sith try to recruit his apprentices son while having his apprentice kill the son at the same time. Anyone could see the conflict of interest. Of course the apprentice would take the opportunity to overthrow his master with with the ideal apprentice standing right in front of him. It's not like Vader wasn't carrying the Imperial military at that point (and that's before extra material fleshed out the details).

Palpatine clearly wants the strongest apprentice possible by pitting the two against each other not only do you achieve this, but you also eliminate a threat. Win win.You said "Of course the apprentice would take the opportunity to overthrow his master" but in the film Vader is clearly conflicted on helping Luke or not while Palpatine is frying him with lightning. He is looking back and forth between the two weighing his options. If all goes well the rebellion is about to be crushed, Vader not being there to carry the military isn't a big deal.

How was that no one knew Leia was Force sensitive until RotJ but sensing Luke was easy?

Huh?

Everything thing about Ewoks. Every gahdamn thing.

The original idea was for it to be Wookies, but Ewoks are cute and make money.

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That still doesn't explain why you used "rule of cool" arbitrary instead of using "space magic". That is the problem. You are hand waving away the very problem being talked about because you want to call it "rule of cool" instead of acknowledging that space magic is used to solve problems all the time. Pretty much every situation in Star Wars is solved by space magic, or some other equally silly thing. There is no real tension.

When did I say rule of cool? Like this entire argument revolves around me trying to split hairs between the two concepts and I can't find when i even said that.

[qwerty123456]

You are saying something completely different now then what you originally were saying. You kept arguing that you need a wayfinder to travel to and from Exegol. So the son, snoke, everyone who left didn't make sense. That isn't true. The Wayfinders are the map. Once you know the way you know the way. Your navigational computer can record and store what the wayfinder transmitted. Just as happened with Rey. She transmitted navigation course markers to the Resistance. So if someone has those course markers they don't need a wayfinder.

So anyone can travel to or from Exegol if they already have the route. The Wayfinders provide the route and nothing more. It doesn't matter if Snoke had X or if it was different circumstances. You said a Sith won't encourage a person to use the light side of the force. We know that is a lie because Sidious still encourage Anakin to use the Light side for a time.

The Final Order needed nav beacons to get out. You clearly aren't understanding my point. If it was just a simple map then the first order could have been leaving easily this whole time, and if it was because the there were a fuck ton of ships and they didn't want to send 10 out to wait and protect the others until they were all out then how come a thousand rebel ships were able to get through easily? Why wouldn't Palpatine have waited till all the Star Destroyers got out of the area before announcing himself? It's a plothole. If the safe path changes from time to time it could possibly make a little more sense and you could argue that Palpatine would be ok sending a bunch of smaller ships and people to die to chart a new path and so wouldn't need a new wayfinder but then you would still need to explain how Rey knew the path would last long enough to let the resistance come back her up.

I said the circumstances for Snoke and Palpatine were different. "Snoke was fascinated with Ren,[4] not only for his apprentice's inherent potential for limitless power[29] but also because he regarded him as the embodiment of the dark side and the light,[10] and encouraged Ren to use the teachings of both.[30] Despite this, Snoke adhered to the dark side and viewed the light as the weak and pathetic side of the Force."

"While not trained as a Sith;[11] Snoke was nonetheless an extraordinarily powerful and skilled Force-sensitive, having great mastery—equally as impressive and terrifying[40]—over the powers of the Force and was particularly strong with the dark side.[7] His teachings blended traditions of both the dark and light sides."

Honestly at this point I've already proven you wrong with a hundred different things like you saying there wasn't mini deathstar tech and that Palpatine had died when in fact he transferred his essence to a clone before the deathstar blew up and this is getting tiring so if I still haven't convinced you with this last post with actual quotes/facts just consider it a "win".

[rhorle]

The Final Order needed nav beacons to get out. You clearly aren't understanding my point. If it was just a simple map then the first order could have been leaving easily this whole time, and if it was because the there were a fuck ton of ships and they didn't want to send 10 out to wait and protect the others until they were all out then how come a thousand rebel ships were able to get through easily?

The first order could leave and go any time they wanted. How do you think they got their fleet in or out? The Sith Wayfinder is just a map. Watch the movies. Rey needs it because she doesn't know the way and transmits course markings to the Resistence. They get there without needing their own Wayfinder because the course was marked in their computers.

They needed a navigation beacon to send the ships off planet. That is also why none of those star destroyers had shields up. Because the planets atmosphere was stopping them from being able to use the shields. It is an entirely dumb plot point that the ships were not built with the ability to take off from a planet on their own. But that is the only reason why they needed a navigation beacon. It wasn't to travel away from the Exegol system. Why didn't Palpatine wait? Because he is arrogant. It doesn't matter. Villians act dumb all the time. Why didn't they wait to blow up Hosnian system until they had their star destroyers ready? Why didn't they wait till they found the resistance base then blow them up first? Dumb acts is not the same as a plot hole.

It doesn't matter if the circumstances between Palpatine and Snoke were different. They both encouraged people to use whatever side of the force fit their goals at the time. You are the one that said a Sith users would not encourage someone to use the light side of the force as a reason for why Snoke can not be a Sith. Circumstances don't matter as you made an absolute statement.

All you are doing is putting your fingers in your ears and going "I'm right your wrong" and trying to throw the few things I was mistaken about back at me as if it proves everything I've said is wrong. You've also been wrong a few times but normal conversation doesn't have people throwing it around as insults. Mistakes happen. You make them. I make them. Try to have a civil discussion and not get so worked up over not being 100% correct on fictional lore all the time.