Faction Identity

[username993720]

Don't worry, we will probably get Void Tauren or something as well

As for the Thalassian elves, they may have been a founding member of the Old Alliance, but they quickly withdrew (although not formally) once the Second War was over. They sent only a token force to Lordaeron at the beginning of the Third War (RoC) and later in TFT, we have Kael saying that he's serving the Alliance merely because of his ancestor's pledge (implying that he wasn't really enthusiastic about it).

Ok, but does it make more sense for them to be allies of the Horde, when they were enemies of the Orcs, Trolls and Undead?

Or better yet, have much in common with the Horde, which barely had anything to do with the arcane (pre-Nightborne), than the Humans who have the Kirin Tor and a magical city (Dalaran)?

[Super Dickmann]

Ok, but does it make more sense for them to be allies of the Horde, when they were enemies of the Orcs, Trolls and Undead?

Or better yet, have much in common with the Horde, which barely had anything to do with the arcane (pre-Nightborne), than the Humans who have the Kirin Tor and a magical city (Dalaran)?

Back when the Alliance wasn't a joke of a faction lacking any values, the Blood Elves being a police state of addicts keeping a Light demigod in their basement and snorting lines of fel off the asses of rentboys while their priests mind-controlled people on the streets and succubi beat their leper gnome slaves into making shirts was against their values. Given that all those elements were ditched in TBC for the blood elves and the Horde as a whole through Mists 1.0 and Mists 2.0 that of course no longer applies. At the moment, the blood elves have no reason to not be an Alliance race, on a thematic or political level.

[username993720]

Back when the Alliance wasn't a joke of a faction lacking any values, the Blood Elves being a police state of addicts keeping a Light demigod in their basement and snorting lines of fel off the asses of rentboys while their priests mind-controlled people on the streets and succubi beat their leper gnome slaves into making shirts was against their values. Given that all those elements were ditched in TBC for the blood elves and the Horde as a whole through Mists 1.0 and Mists 2.0 that of course no longer applies. At the moment, the blood elves have no reason to not be an Alliance race, on a thematic or political level.

Well, they were kind of forceful with their mana tapping and light-draining. but they were desperate. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the presence of Void Elves on the Alliance, i probably wouldn't mind the Blood Elves being on the Horde (as they sort of fill the niche of a dark Elf). But now that Void Elves exist, i feel like the two are a perfect trade. You see, one cannot be giving without taking.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, they were kind of forceful with their mana tapping and light-draining. but they were desperate. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the presence of Void Elves on the Alliance, i probably wouldn't mind the Blood Elves being on the Horde (as they sort of fill the niche of a dark Elf). But now that Void Elves exist, i feel like the two are a perfect trade. You see, one cannot be giving without taking.

Desperate or not, they still did things the Alliance at the time was categorically against. The Horde, being more scrupulous would accept them, especially the Forsaken, who also needed more backing in EK. The logic there holds through. AT the time the EK races started with different reps depending on race to show that they were fairly distant.

Void Elves themselves shouldn't exist, though the fact that they're about as if not more down in the rabbithole of corruptive magic and dubiousness than TBC blood elves yet this has no effect on the Alliance's acceptance of them goes to show you how far the faction's core themes have been watered down to just generic goodness. Ditto the Horde, since the two's difference in values is nonexistent at that stage.

[username993720]

Desperate or not, they still did things the Alliance at the time was categorically against. The Horde, being more scrupulous would accept them, especially the Forsaken, who also needed more backing in EK. The logic there holds through. AT the time the EK races started with different reps depending on race to show that they were fairly distant.

Void Elves themselves shouldn't exist, though the fact that they're about as if not more down in the rabbithole of corruptive magic and dubiousness than TBC blood elves yet this has no effect on the Alliance's acceptance of them goes to show you how far the faction's core themes have been watered down to just generic goodness. Ditto the Horde, since the two's difference in values is nonexistent at that stage.

Yeah, i remember. Blood Elves and Forsaken would start out with a neutral reputation on the Horde while all the Alliance races would start out with a friendly reputation.

[Syegfryed]

I don't know about you, but i see an Ogre fighting for the Orcs against the humans. They never harbored any love for the Orcs but, then again, the Horde is comprised of races that are in an alliance of convenience, so that's pretty much the mentality.

the horde was already a thing since the draenei war, ogres only came later dude

High Elves will be playable in Shadowlands, and it doesn't matter if they're playable or not, it still irks.

void elves with HE color will be, and again, they are not nearly iconic as the core and founder of the alliance

*Highborne Night Elves*, not just Night Elves. and yes, technically, they are. But, how much truly different are they from one another? (culture-wise, not model-wise)

they are another race and thats whats matters

Well, the reason i supported the Alterac Humans idea is because of the thin Kul Tiran Human model. since it has not been used for the Kul Tiran allied race, and people do want to have that option, i could see it being used for an Alterac Human allied race. and since they engaged in relations with the Horde during the Second War, it seemed the most plausible for them to be on the Horde side. They are not exactly the noble and honorable humans of Stormwind, or the tough and beefy humans of Kul Tiras. so yes, to me, they are quite distinct.

that still is a nonsense ide and they are still humans, just because they alligned with the horde for one momment don't mean they should join then, when they are better suited with their own kin, they not being the noble and honorable humans of stormwind would make the alliance less boring

and for you they are quite distinct, but they are just humans in their model, appearence, behavior, etc

I never wanted to see any Orcs on the Alliance. it disturbes me too.

but want humans on the horde, same nonsense.

[username993720]

the horde was already a thing since the draenei war, ogres only came later dude


void elves with HE color will be, and again, they are not nearly iconic as the core and founder of the alliance


they are another race and thats whats matters


that still is a nonsense ide and they are still humans, just because they alligned with the horde for one momment don't mean they should join then, when they are better suited with their own kin, they not being the noble and honorable humans of stormwind would make the alliance less boring

and for you they are quite distinct, but they are just humans in their model, appearence, behavior, etc



but want humans on the horde, same nonsense.

So let's just have Orcs and Humans and get rid of the other races, would you be pleased then? according to you that's the only thing that matters.

You know what, when i started this thread i didn't even mention the Alteraci Humans. I'm willing to pass on it. If the Laughing Skull clan can betray the Horde during the second war and still get to join them along with the Mag'har (even though they are alternate reality ones), then i can see Alteraci Humans siding with the Alliance.

To me, what's important are the Orges and Forest Trolls on the Horde that are still unplayable. do you agree with that?

[Syegfryed]

So let's just have Orcs and Humans and get rid of the other races, would you be pleased then? according to you that's the only thing that matters.

nice whataboutism, but no it was not my main point here, i dislike all faction swamp races, and since the mistake was done once, it should not be done again in a worse scale. i just pointed how orcs and humans are the less likely of doing that because of their history and what they represent in their own faction

like i said previously, hurting your hand is not an excuse to cut it off

To me, what's important are the Orges and Forest Trolls on the Horde that are still unplayable. do you agree with that?

Sure, im one of the most vocal ogre apologist out there

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ied-race/67781

[Ardenaso]

nice whataboutism, but no it was not my main point here, i dislike all faction swamp races, and since the mistake was done once, it should not be done again in a worse scale.

I changed my mind, Blood Elves and Nightborne aren't mistakes (in fact for Warcraft 3 purists, Blood Elves would be likelier to go Horde); so for me it's no longer hurting your hand but rather adoring yourself with jewels. Let's do it again for the third time

Btw Ogres aren't variations/derivativs/offshoots of any existing core race, they'd be a new core race at most

[Syegfryed]

Btw Ogres aren't variations/derivativs/offshoots of any existing core race, they'd be a new core race at most

there is no "core" races anymore, allied race system is a system that came to substitute the old one, every new race will come with the allied race system.

[username993720]

nice whataboutism, but no it was not my main point here, i dislike all faction swamp races, and since the mistake was done once, it should not be done again in a worse scale. i just pointed how orcs and humans are the less likely of doing that because of their history and what they represent in their own faction

like i said previously, hurting your hand is not an excuse to cut it off



Sure, im one of the most vocal ogre apologist out there

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ied-race/67781

But you'd be against swapping the Void Elves, Dark Iron Dwarves and Worgen for the Blood Elves, Nightborne and Vulpera (and even Horde Pandaren for Mogu)?

Let's be honest, this is never going to happen, so you can relax. But theoretically, just for the enjoyment of speculating and discussing, don't you think that thematically they kinda fit the other faction more?

The Dark Iron Dwarves have always been the mortal enemies of the Bronzebeards and Wildhammers (until recently), and they share a lot in common with the Blackrock Orcs (dark skin color, love for smithing and the element of fire).

The Void Elves practice void magic, which is utterly against the morals of the Humans' Church of Light and the Draenei as a whole (especially the Lightforged). On the other hand, they share their love of the void with the Forsaken's Cult of the Forgotten Shadows and the Shadowmoon Orc Darkcasters and Mystics (who are part of the Mag'har).

The Worgen's savagery and brutality is very much like the Orcs'. While in a state of bloodlust, they are often refered to as beasts. Besides, the Humans would see such a behavior as beneath their civilized demeanor. Not only that, but the Orcs also share a great love for wolves, who resemble their savagery.
I'm not referring to the Gilnean Worgen, which learned to control their bestial nature, and harbor deep hatred for the Forsaken and the Horde, but to the Worgen as a whole.

The Blood Elves and the Nightborne are pretty much identical to the High Elves and Highborne on the Alliance. They both share a great affinity for the Arcane and for magic in general. The only real difference between the Blood Elves and High Elves is the eye color and their inability to control their magic addiction (which is no longer relevant). And the only real difference between the Nightborne and the Highborne is that the Nightborne are even more arcane-oriented that their appearance changed slightly (big fucking deal). They both had their fair share of magic addiction and dealings with demons. Moreover, i think they find more common ground with the Humans, who have the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, than the primitive Orcs.

As for the Vulpera, i don't see them having much in common with the Alliance. they are a scrappy bunch of people, living off of trading what they find and taking advantage of opportunities. they are pretty primitive for the Alliance in general, as they are nomadic people who live in wagons. But, i just can't see how a race of fox people who sing "Dolly and Doll are my best friends" can fit within the savage and barbaric Horde.

The Pandaren are more Alliance-oriented, and i'll explain why. First of all, "The pandaren were initially planned to be the new playable race for the Alliance in World of Warcraft's first expansion, The Burning Crusade, but about halfway through development they were replaced with the draenei". Second thing is they were close allies of the Night Elves back in the day, but they severed their ties due to the Highborne's magic addiction. Now, i'm kinda shooting myself in the leg here when asking for Blood Elves and Nightborne on the Alliance. If we pretend i didn't, then the Pandaren are more likely to be drawn to the Night Elves (who are now nature-lovers and only have a small faction of highborne within them) than the arcane-obsessed Blood Elves and Nightborne. Furthermore, they share a lot in common with the Ironforge Dwarves, from their love of brews and good food to their love of tales and friendly brawls. On the other hand, they waged a war, back in the old days, with the Zandalari, which were allies of the Mogu (the Pandaren's most hated enemies), called the Zandalari Troll wars. They do have some in common with the Horde when it comes to spirituality, as their geomancy is very close to shamanism. But, i find it more hard for them to have common grounds with the evil Forsaken, greedy Goblins, voodoo-inclined Trolls and warmongering Orcs than the races of the Alliance. Sure, they won't be attracted to Void Elves (as the Sha was a major threat in Pandaria), and maybe even Dark Iron Dwarves (as they used to ruin Brewfest). And maybe the Kul'tirans still hold a grudge for Chen's involvement in killing Daelin (though, they forgave Jaina), but it is still pretty minor, in my eyes, in contrast to the Horde races. Plus, they're all about peace, meditation and controlling their bad emotions, which the Horde struggles to do.

The Mogu, on the other hand, were allies of the Zandalari. And yes, i know, they don't trust each other or think highly of each other. But, that's what the Horde is all about, mistrust and cooperation altogether. Second of all, they kinda resemble the Orcs with their slavery and subjugation of other races, the infighting between the clans for power, and the general brutish look and feel to them.

[Eggroll]

Again, if you deny help for a friend race, who helped to save your ass in the end of the world, just because "its your tree and your trees alone" that race is a piece of shit race, just like the elves they are, no matter how you guys want to paint then different,

Garrosh only attacked because the night elves still refuse to trade

Garrosh has no right to force anyone to trade with him. And just as a reminder: Tyrande agreed to letting the Horde use Aszhara uncontested after SoO.
Look what that leniency got her. Orcs are alien monsters and have no place on Azeroth.

[Aresk]

The Worgen's savagery and brutality is very much like the Orcs'. While in a state of bloodlust, they are often refered to as beasts. Besides, the Humans would see such a behavior as beneath their civilized demeanor. Not only that, but the Orcs also share a great love for wolves, who resemble their savagery.
I'm not referring to the Gilnean Worgen, which learned to control their bestial nature, and harbor deep hatred for the Forsaken and the Horde, but to the Worgen as a whole.

Honestly, the worgen feel more like night elves than orcs to me, particularly given its origin. For that reason, I would put them on whatever faction night elves belong to.

As for the Vulpera, i don't see them having much in common with the Alliance. they are a scrappy bunch of people, living off of trading what they find and taking advantage of opportunities. they are pretty primitive for the Alliance in general, as they are nomadic people who live in wagons. But, i just can't see how a race of fox people who sing "Dolly and Doll are my best friends" can fit within the savage and barbaric Horde.

I don't know; the Horde have always seemed the more musical faction to me. From Power of the Horde to ETC to the Highmountain having a literal drum as their council chamber, I think it works well to have tauren and vulpera in the same faction.

The Pandaren are more Alliance-oriented, and i'll explain why. First of all, they were close allies of the Night Elves back in the day, but they severed their ties due to the Highborne's magic addiction. Now, i'm kinda shooting myself in the leg here when asking for Blood Elves and Nightborne on the Alliance. If we pretend i didn't, then the Pandaren are more likely to be drawn to the Night Elves (who are now nature-lovers and only have a small faction of highborne within them) than the arcane-obsessed Blood Elves and Nightborne. Furthermore, they share a lot in common with the Ironforge Dwarves, from their love of brews and good food to their love of tales and friendly brawls. On the other hand, they waged a war, back in the old days, with the Zandalari, which were allies of the Mogu (the Pandaren's most hated enemies), called the Zandalari Troll wars. They do have some in common with the Horde when it comes to spirituality, as their geomancy is very close to shamanism. But, i find it more hard for them to have common grounds with the evil Forsaken, greedy Goblins, voodoo-inclined Trolls and warmongering Orcs than the races of the Alliance. Sure, they won't be attracted to Void Elves (as the Sha was a major threat in Pandaria), and maybe even Dark Iron Dwarves (as they used to ruin Brewfest). And maybe the Kul'tirans still hold a grudge for Chen's involvement in killing Daelin (though, they forgave Jaina), but it is still pretty minor, in my eyes, in contrast to the Horde races. Plus, they're all about peace, meditation and controlling their bad emotions, which the Horde struggles to do.

You make some good points, but I'd feel like they'd be equally turned off by the Dwarves' incessant digging for artifacts in other people's lands. The Alliance races don't generally deal with meditation outside of arguably druid communing with the land, so I don't see a lot of synergy there. Honestly, I feel like pandaren, night elf, worgen, tauren, and vulpera could be their own faction, though I think the neutral pandaren (before choosing a faction in their starting zone) is the closest we'll ever get to a third faction.

[Varodoc]

I changed my mind, Blood Elves and Nightborne aren't mistakes (in fact for Warcraft 3 purists, Blood Elves would be likelier to go Horde); so for me it's no longer hurting your hand but rather adoring yourself with jewels. Let's do it again for the third time

Btw Ogres aren't variations/derivativs/offshoots of any existing core race, they'd be a new core race at most

Nightborne are a complete retcon. It was clearly stated in WC3 that Suramar City was utterly annihilated during the Sundering, and there was no indication that a magical mana dome existed in the region (a shield that Maiev would've easily been able to see).

[username993720]

Honestly, the worgen feel more like night elves than orcs to me, particularly given its origin. For that reason, I would put them on whatever faction night elves belong to.



I don't know; the Horde have always seemed the more musical faction to me. From Power of the Horde to ETC to the Highmountain having a literal drum as their council chamber, I think it works well to have tauren and vulpera in the same faction.



You make some good points, but I'd feel like they'd be equally turned off by the Dwarves' incessant digging for artifacts in other people's lands. The Alliance races don't generally deal with meditation outside of arguably druid communing with the land, so I don't see a lot of synergy there. Honestly, I feel like pandaren, night elf, worgen, tauren, and vulpera could be their own faction, though I think the neutral pandaren (before choosing a faction in their starting zone) is the closest we'll ever get to a third faction.

Actually, the RPG sources state that: "Being a race that honors their ancestors as well, they aid the dwarves in their search for titan artifacts when they can. They believe knowing where one comes from is an important aspect to living a full life." (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Pandaren#In_the_RPG)

[Aresk]

Actually, the RPG sources state that: "Being a race that honors their ancestors as well, they aid the dwarves in their search for titan artifacts when they can. They believe knowing where one comes from is an important aspect to living a full life." (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Pandaren#In_the_RPG)

Honestly that kind of surprises me given the consideration pandaren give to the land and harmony while dwarves will nearly wipe out tauren tribes to dig up artifacts where the tribe is currently living. Sort of how gnomes and goblins both like to delve into engineering but generally disagree with the other's methods.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh has no right to force anyone to trade with him. And just as a reminder: Tyrande agreed to letting the Horde use Aszhara uncontested after SoO.

after soo isn't an excuse for what happened before

Look what that leniency got her. Orcs are alien monsters and have no place on Azeroth.

night elves are deteriorate trolls and have no say in who have a place here or not.

- - - Updated - - -

But you'd be against swapping the Void Elves, Dark Iron Dwarves and Worgen for the Blood Elves, Nightborne and Vulpera (and even Horde Pandaren for Mogu)?

repeating, im against all swapping

Let's be honest, this is never going to happen, so you can relax. But theoretically, just for the enjoyment of speculating and discussing, don't you think that thematically they kinda fit the other faction more?

nope, dwarves are alliance, taurens are horde, i like the way it is.

[Ardenaso]

It was clearly stated in WC3 that Suramar City was utterly annihilated during the Sundering, and there was no indication that a magical mana dome existed in the region (a shield that Maiev would've easily been able to see).

they made that stupid excuse of "well you see the Nightborne shield also makes it invisible" but then again there's that tall Highmountain and the nearby Stormheim.

also, the existence of Highmountain and Val'sharah are also retcons by proxy because their existence goes against Garrosh's narrative of securing Pandaria for land and resources

[username993720]

Honestly that kind of surprises me given the consideration pandaren give to the land and harmony while dwarves will nearly wipe out tauren tribes to dig up artifacts where the tribe is currently living. Sort of how gnomes and goblins both like to delve into engineering but generally disagree with the other's methods.

They're not nearly as destructive as the Goblins when it comes to digging operations.

[Varodoc]

they made that stupid excuse of "well you see the Nightborne shield also makes it invisible" but then again there's that tall Highmountain and the nearby Stormheim.

also, the existence of Highmountain and Val'sharah are also retcons by proxy because their existence goes against Garrosh's narrative of securing Pandaria for land and resources

The shield was not invisible. If it was, then it's another retcon that contradicts Thalyssra cinematic: