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  1. #21
    That s a grudgin.

    Warhammer is the best of three but i wish it was more popular. Its constant, brutal war is great but a turnoff for many people.

  2. #22
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Agreed, and they could be so much better even. Mogu, Hozen, Jinyu, Ethereals, Naga, Ogres, Furbolgs, Arakkoa, and Saberon to name a few. Burst open that diversity bin and give us some of those highly-requested playable races and widen the margin even more.
    I'd love to play as Arakkoa or Tortollan, latter probably pretty hard to make work gear wise...but then again they could always go the SWG route, Wookies had their own kinds of armor since they couldn't wear armor rigged for the more standard humanoid races.

  3. #23
    Orcs, Dwarves and Elves are the same thing in TES.

    Overall, I like TES' handling of it the best because they've put a lot of work into their background. Humans and Mer(elves) both originate from the same place but had drastically different ideals about Mundus which caused them to split up and evolve separately. It's also a continued source of conflict between the two races, though certain races like Redguards and Dunmer stray away from those ideals.

    The Elves in TES are also the farthest away from "generic" Elves. The Dunmer and Dwemer take heavily from Middle Eastern areas and ideals. The Dwemer were also basically all psychopaths who cared so little for anything alive that they would ruin entire races just for science. Their disappearance and likely collective transformation into the skin of the Numidium is also an extremely weird and interesting take on the "dissapeared ancient race" trope. The Bosmer are like the Night Elves except taken to an extreme. They used to be full blown cannibals because they made a pact with the forest to never take from it, kinda opposite vegetarians. The Altmer are enlightened on an entirely other level to other races to the point where they actually teach metaphysics in school. They are also an interesting look at extreme ideologies and the use of magic in them, to the point where they made the damn moons disappear and abused that to make the Khajiit worship them. Then you have the Orsimer, who would be "Orcs" but are actually elven followers of the Trinimac transformed after Boethiah ate him and shit him out as Malacath, the collective disgrace transforming them all into ugly pariahs. They don't share the "noble savage" of WoW or the "dumb chaotic brutes" of Warhammer/DnD and others. Instead they are kind of the opposite of WoW, being disgraced nobles who had to strive to win acceptance in the Empire while being shit on by literally every race and only having a single city to call their own home.

    Then we have the humans, from the half-elven genetic experiments of the Bretons, the extreme badasses from across the sea who were so cool their homeland exploded with the Redguards, the possibly transformed into snake-men of Akavir, the classical Nords of the north with unique spin on them with the voice, and the Empire crammed full of crazy politics including a man-made god who could transform reality itself with just his words.

    TES is an amazingly built universe with so many layers of lore from the mundane to the metaphysical and fantastical. They even built in tools to help them retcon things easily and still have them make sense and be interesting, something WoW has struggled with A LOT. This isn't to discount Warhammer and Warcraft because I love them both dearly (Tomb Kings and Trolls for life), but TES by far has kept its world crazy, interesting, and consistent. I could write every day for the rest of my life about the cool shit in TES and still probably have plenty left over by the time I die.

  4. #24
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    a little biased but i would say Elder scrolls have the best humans and elves, most because they portrayd the elves like they are, and there they die a lot so is good to me.

    im not familiar with warhammer so i will say orcs and dwarves from warcraft get a win for me

  5. #25
    The best representation of orcs/elfs/human are in Warhammer 40k hands down.

    There is no dwarf though in 40k.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Tes has best humans and elves.

    WH has by far the best orkz.

    Both are tied for dwarves.

    And WC gets nothing.
    The Elder Scrolls has mutant/inbred elves that are ugly as sin, clearly they cant be real elves.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Fantasy Warhammer has better depictions of Elves, Orks. TES has better Humans, and its debatable with the Elves, between warhammer and tes.

    For Warcraft, I really do like the Orc clans, and I used to like Night Elves (when they were introduced in WC3 as amazons and isolationists, while also being intuned with nature), but now they are shite. But, what Warcraft did, was humanize everything, sure they all have their individual quirks, but they all are similar to humans... just misunderstood. It works to a point, but when every race is like that, rather than being straight up alien in every aspect, thats when you are going down the wrong writing path. They had the option of giving us an Alien race in the draenai, but we just got light loving humans with an accent. Yes i know there are a few other things there, in lore, but show me how they act in game.

    That is the problem with the Warcraft for me. (But I do love MOST of the lore, and races)

  8. #28
    At this point i think the warcraft versions of these races just make no sense, are so bland and homogenized and thus fall short in my eyes in comparison to the versions of those other fantasy genre. And i couldn't say which versions i like more, TES or Warhammer Fantasy, because i'm not that much into either, only on a surface level. Even on the surface level though they're more entertaining. And they also have a better cast of characters representing them. The cast of wow characters when it comes to most races is down right horrenduous and the authors are also incapable to come up with new good characters. Shadowlands is the newest and a good example for that. Rehashed characters whereever you look.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Curious, while I feel I am one of the few remaining fanboys of blizzs work, I have been accused recently by a particular forum member of romanticising blizzards earlier work and vision, and giving them too much credit, while wasting my time essentially over spilt milk.

    I hear that Warhammer and Elderscrolls do a much better job with their stories and their races. But, the little I have seen of them is so much darker and more grim, and their game worlds are not as vibrant or artistically detailed as wow's is.

    I wonder if the truth is I really like the ideas of most of the races in their original form, but like most of you have not liked the execution as much, but does Warhammer and Elderscrolls really offer something better for fantasy lovers of the whole Elves, dwarves, orcs humans etc world?

    Elder Scrolls is perhaps the closest to most popular fantasy works. Humans dominate and have the greatest achievements, they're generally imperialistic though not all are. The other races are on the fringes, verge of extinction but push come to shove have powerful means to fight back, but not the numbers.

    Warhammer - every thing is on the brink of near total collapse, they really all out war, and it seems anyone can fight anyone and has done if you go back far enough. The races are strongly and fiercely independent, and can be viewed as factions of their own

    Warcraft - probably is the most diverse of the bunch, lots of races that have lots of branches, new facets of each race, and lands every expansion, - Warcraft universe had the night elves as the Imperial might, a utopic empire for the most part until the very last few years, then great catastrophe and it's been non stop fighting since. Warcraft races form two federations - the alliance and the horde that tend to battle it out, with races between each faction as friends and allies, but enemies to those in the opposite.


    Warcraft has the best racial concepts if you ask me and the highest potential, but don't seem to be able to do it to a level I am satisfied with as much recently. I hear mixed reviews about Elder Scrolls, some say it's shit, some say it's still a lot better than wow. but everyone seems to think Warhammer is miles better - but then it's also miles darker - is this because people here have a lust for the really dark depressing, murder, occultic stuff?
    Warcraft Elves are basically just pointy-eared humans at this point. The origional matriarchal, fanatical, and theocratic non-urban night elves were a bit different at least in that they initially had quite a distinct moral and political system both from what you normally see in generic fantasy and from the rest of Azeroth, but this was very quickly minimised once they were made playable in WoW.

    That's not to say WoW elves are bad, just for the most part generic and bland.

  10. #30
    Warcraft has cooler ideas for races than the others but there is not enough worldbuilding for every one of them. There is also the problem of two factions that make story too focused on humans and orcs.

    Warhammer has great worldbuilding and the races are independent enough to matter but their races are completely exhausted and they still are comparable to Warcraft races.

    Elder Scrolls is ugly and boring.

    Let's remove the factions and focus on worldbuilding. Warcraft with Warhammer depth would be perfect.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Let's remove the factions and focus on worldbuilding. Warcraft with Warhammer depth would be perfect.

    I'm all for world building and proper character development, but I would love to see some better race development to help strengthen faction's identity. 'World of Warcraft' has been closer to 'World of StrifeCraft' lately.

  12. #32
    For me Warhammer>Warcraft>TES in about every way, I find tes incredibely dull and bland and I played oblivion/skyrim solely for the sandbox play while barely caring at all about lore.

    Warhammer is more 'real' and grounded as a setting, I feel while warcraft is more like a michael bay movie, don't think to hard about it and you can enjoy it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Warcraft has cooler ideas for races than the others but there is not enough worldbuilding for every one of them. There is also the problem of two factions that make story too focused on humans and orcs.

    Let's remove the factions and focus on worldbuilding. Warcraft with Warhammer depth would be perfect.
    Bingo that's my assessment of warcraft too, it doesnt go deep enough..

    Warcraft with SWTOR story telling would be amazing
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-07-25 at 06:18 PM.

  14. #34
    While Warhammer Orcs are a lot of fun, especially 40k Orks, Orcs in Warcraft are the only category where I'd have it win. While TES is byzantine, its humans are actually human and therefore more interesting, and just for the Dwemer and Dunmer alone TES also rules the elf field. Warhammer wins in terms of dwarves easily, given how virtually all fantasy dwarves are copy-paste bores, Warhammer avoids this pitfall.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-25 at 06:20 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  15. #35
    Warhammer by far. I still enjoy other races in different settings though.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2020-07-25 at 07:08 PM.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I'm all for world building and proper character development, but I would love to see some better race development to help strengthen faction's identity. 'World of Warcraft' has been closer to 'World of StrifeCraft' lately.
    I think characters can wait. I would love to see some stories about changes in dwarven culture than another one about Anduin going to Goldshire.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  17. #37
    Wow has got the best vision for races of the 3. This isn't dissing the other 2, but in wow, many of the races actually feel like full races, their own worlds, often with multiple nations and facets.

    Wow's problem is that much of the ground work is undeveloped, with most of the focus highly superficial. You don't see the depths of many races, with all the various facets they have, it's only surface deep.

    Take Night elves: In theory they are multi-nation/multi-facet group, you got druidic culture night elves very remote, isolationist, forest focused, then you have the whole Highborne sha'bing, Eldre'thalas is a huge city just like Suramar, this is an entire community of advanced dark elven magicians with a high elf foundation, then you have the Order of Elune, which is able to operate diversely between any groups, and you have all this under a star culture, a people that adore the night sky, the stars and would likely have a lot of their lives focused and centred around that in very creative ways.

    but what do we see in wow? We see a poorer version of the wood elf trope, meets human yes men with no inspiration outside the tiny little box they've chopped them down too.. the mystique of the Well of Eternity, the Emerald dream and Elune are core parts their fantasy is tied to, and they are barely touched.



    Wow basically throws tons of stuff into races, and they're like mentioned, but never handled to any real or serious depth, it's all superficial, which is okay enough for just a video game, but if you're trying to map a serious story that can spawn all kinds of games, books, even spread to tv and the movies, you gotta lay a much deeper foundation for all the things you include.


    Now Warhammer and TES both don't have the scope wow has, but the depth is so much superior, while largely focused on conflict, so you really don't get to see much of love, constructive culture, you do get customs and culture bleeding out in the stories in a way that wow fails to do. The Warhammer novels bring a realism to the world and setting wow novels just don't do, perhaps its because they don't have a video game world laid out that they have to stick to strictly - a video game world that can only be taken as a modelled version of what the actual thing would be like, but the books do not write like you're in an actual world, they write like you're in the video game world, and it's awful. You need the sort of information you get in Wow traveller to be showing up strongly in the novels when they visit some of these races/peoples.


    Warhammer and TES action races a hell of a lot better. But this is partly because wow has switched focus entirely to character narrative to spin a focused plot, but ignores it's strongest suit, which is it's races and their diversity. It's a creative team problem, because the art team characterises and gears the shit out of the races, they design their look, their architecture, their feel - and they base most of the information on the creative original descriptions and action it, whereas creative when they start doing the stories completely blank the races, only following people. Warhammer and TES do not do this.

    The style between warhammaer and TES is different, Warhammer is brutal, TES is occultic heavy. Both are on the negative dark side, perhaps too much so, which is another reason Warcraft would do better if it actually made more of an effort.


    The bottom line, is people wish Warcraft would have the depth and co-ordination of Warhammer and the faithful/consistent fantasy underpinning of TES. They wish so because of how wow is shallow.

  18. #38
    I can only talk about what I know, sorry about that.

    In warhammer, the Humans even the Empire of Man are weakling beings, really, I am not sure why the world is centered around humans because there's little reason for it, Dwarves and Elves win. Humans have their revenge in Age of Sigmar though, or maybie even not, not knowing a lot here.

    In Warcraft, humans are the leaders of the alliance and sound to be competent. Which race would "win"? Arcane elves are a thing of the past pretty much, dwarves are not better not weaker. In warcraft everyone wins, imo. The edge is maybie on Orcs anyway, because Thrall.

    Elder scrolls, I completed Skyrim, but I am not a connoisseur. I cannot judge.

    ...And D&D?? Humans win. Particularly in 1rd edition. My prefered version of the human anyway.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleax View Post
    I can only talk about what I know, sorry about that.

    In warhammer, the Humans even the Empire of Man are weakling beings, really, I am not sure why the world is centered around humans because there's little reason for it, Dwarves and Elves win. Humans have their revenge in Age of Sigmar though, or maybie even not, not knowing a lot here.

    In Warcraft, humans are the leaders of the alliance and sound to be competent. Which race would "win"? Arcane elves are a thing of the past pretty much, dwarves are not better not weaker. In warcraft everyone wins, imo. The edge is maybie on Orcs anyway, because Thrall.

    Elder scrolls, I completed Skyrim, but I am not a connoisseur. I cannot judge.

    ...And D&D?? Humans win. Particularly in 1rd edition. My prefered version of the human anyway.
    For some reason I struggle to get behind warcraft humans, is it because I cant stand the u universal model they use?

    I wonder 8f blizzard decided to humanise orc, all elves, draenwi and forsaken models and give them as human playable options, and did the same for options for elves. They did that with thin humans, and that was interesting, altho I wonder why they couldnt stand up straight

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleax View Post
    I can only talk about what I know, sorry about that.

    In warhammer, the Humans even the Empire of Man are weakling beings, really, I am not sure why the world is centered around humans because there's little reason for it, Dwarves and Elves win. Humans have their revenge in Age of Sigmar though, or maybie even not, not knowing a lot here.

    In Warcraft, humans are the leaders of the alliance and sound to be competent. Which race would "win"? Arcane elves are a thing of the past pretty much, dwarves are not better not weaker. In warcraft everyone wins, imo. The edge is maybie on Orcs anyway, because Thrall.

    Elder scrolls, I completed Skyrim, but I am not a connoisseur. I cannot judge.

    ...And D&D?? Humans win. Particularly in 1rd edition. My prefered version of the human anyway.
    Laughs in Norsca.

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