9.0 General Discussion

[goldlock]

I must say that a big source of disappointment for me in 9.0 is around the leveling system.

With every expansion's content being scaled up to level 50, I was actually hoping that all the drops from old raids, etc would be scaled to 50 as well. This seems silly, but this would've created a renewed twink trend using old legendary and having an absolutely massive pool of gear to choose from.

Would be fun tearing up some level 50 bgs with Shadowmourne, WOD ring, MOP Cloak, two Legion Legendaries, and shit like scaled up DBW.

Twinking wouldve had a lot of potential but instead Shadowmourne is a level 25 weapon from an expansion that scales to.level 50.

There won't ever be a twink trend again as twinks have to gain experience or fight other twinks. No twink wants to fight a equal opponent so its been dead for ages.

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Nah the ppl who think "it will be fine" are just stable individuals who dont freak out over a game. Luigi had a much better ability than Mario even though marios quick accurate jumping had use. And even though it wasnt optimal on every level i still used luigi, mostly cus i like him more than mario, and just delt with the fact his feathery jump wasnt as good as marios in some lvls since it left him less control.

But i never once thought super mario 2 was a bad game, that the characters were imbalanced (that was kinda the point).

The game gave me limitations and i adapted to them. Same thing as how when i play my paladin i accept the limitations that i cant blink, summon a tank pet or conjure healthstones. So if i pick necrolord even if its suboptimal, ill just adapt my gameplay to take advantage of the shield rather than mobility. Its not a big deal..

Its just a subclass system, and if it didnt exist we'd be balanced around things we CANT change without changing specs, or playing a new character. If a patch hits and rogues suddenly get more dmg from bastion than revendeth they can change covenants. In every expansion a class got nerfed up to 10% in some cases, Nd the only thing u could do is play a different character.

High difficulty pkayers will min max, medium will try to balance desire vs power. And most players will just play what feels fun

Its just a game

The problem with this notion is the game your playing will balance itself around Luigi's further feathery jumps thus making it impossible to beat as mario.

Its annoying and people are going to have to go into covenants based on what high end play style they enjoy but it isn't world ending just annoying.

[Chickat]

I think every covenant ability needs to had a utility and survivability trait. I posted this in another thread, but wondering how everyone feels about it? The actual abilities themselved could change, but as long as everyone has a way to move faster and some sort of survivability aspect to it, it should help balance them a bit more.

Fleshcraft: 20% Shield. Also lets you teleport back to the same spot/corpse within 5 minutes as long as you remain within 100 yards. Still not as good, but makes it a lot more useable in certain situations.

Soulshape: Movement speed with blink. Also removes all harmful effects and heals you for 10% hp for every effect removed.

Steward: Offers to stand somewhere that you desire. You can switch places with him within 10 minutes instantly teleptorting and healing for 3% hp for every 5 yards you were away from the Steward when you switch places.

Door Of Shadows: Teleport to the chosen location. 2 second cast. Up to 40 yards away. If you teleport onto an enemy you suck the life out of them healing yourself for 15% of your health. Does no actual damage to the enemy. There will be a telegraphed effect on the ground allowing for players to move away in pvp.

[Seratox]

I think every covenant ability needs to had a utility and survivability trait. I posted this in another thread, but wondering how everyone feels about it? The actual abilities themselved could change, but as long as everyone has a way to move faster and some sort of survivability aspect to it, it should help balance them a bit more.

Fleshcraft: 20% Shield. Also lets you teleport back to the same spot/corpse within 5 minutes as long as you remain within 100 yards. Still not as good, but makes it a lot more useable in certain situations.

Soulshape: Movement speed with blink. Also removes all harmful effects and heals you for 10% hp for every effect removed.

Steward: Offers to stand somewhere that you desire. You can switch places with him within 10 minutes instantly teleptorting and healing for 3% hp for every 5 yards you were away from the Steward when you switch places.

Door Of Shadows: Teleport to the chosen location. 2 second cast. Up to 40 yards away. If you teleport onto an enemy you suck the life out of them healing yourself for 15% of your health. Does no actual damage to the enemy. There will be a telegraphed effect on the ground allowing for players to move away in pvp.

I am so happy that you are not a pvp developer. Every single thing you suggested here is meta-cancer in its purest form.

[Chickat]

So is it the exact design of the abilities you don't like, or the idea of them having more than one function in general?

[razorpax]

Sorry, but FoK does not compare to AoE cov abilities, which are designed to be also useful for single target. And one cov ability being subpar for any given situation doesn't mean your performance is suddenly shit. What kinda of fucked up reasoning is that? You are fully optimized or you are crap? Legendaries are zero what? Zero influence over your performance? Can't adjust them to content? Ok. And yes dude, cov ability is a foundation to entire class, and it's soooo cracked (your analogies are worth jack shit). It's kinda amusing seeing people struggle now with the thought of not being able to be 100% for content ahead. Spoiled so fucking much.

legendaries have 0 interaction with covenant abilities

as for aoe abilities and their ST usage i would say divine toll is pretty useless in ST and is comparable

why is it bad to want to be optimized?? i would say its pathetic that people dont want a change made that would have no effect on them simply because another group of people enjoy it. "omg you want to be 100% in control of your character just like you have been since vanilla??? PATHETIC"

i dont even think we are having the same conversation so i will slow it down. only 2 things in the covenant effect the covenant class ability. Swapping them would therefore not effect as much as people like to believe. 0 legendaries effect the class abilities.

Fan of knives isnt much different from an ability that is 100% aoe being used ST and you kinda glossed over that point by saying "yeah thats not true" so please either say something of substance or agree to disagree

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The difference between Azerite is this: Covs are actually being tested (and changed) from the first days of Alpha and have a secondary system that helps adjust them. And they were even defended by some top raiders (Method I think). Azerite had neither of this.

yeah except the one big change taht blizzard is refusing because it solves a made up problem

my god man its like you are matrix dodging the points

[Makabreska]

legendaries have 0 interaction with covenant abilities

as for aoe abilities and their ST usage i would say divine toll is pretty useless in ST and is comparable

why is it bad to want to be optimized?? i would say its pathetic that people dont want a change made that would have no effect on them simply because another group of people enjoy it. "omg you want to be 100% in control of your character just like you have been since vanilla??? PATHETIC"

i dont even think we are having the same conversation so i will slow it down. only 2 things in the covenant effect the covenant class ability. Swapping them would therefore not effect as much as people like to believe. 0 legendaries effect the class abilities.

Fan of knives isnt much different from an ability that is 100% aoe being used ST and you kinda glossed over that point by saying "yeah thats not true" so please either say something of substance or agree to disagree

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yeah except the one big change taht blizzard is refusing because it solves a made up problem

my god man its like you are matrix dodging the points

Case and point. Single thing that can't be optimized freely and people loose their shit. Fok not different? So it would be a dps gain to use it on ST just like for example Spear of Bastion or Deaths Due??And leggos can help you make up for any potential dps loss from cov. But I feel like I'm sending signals to outer space here. If you are so sure that having AoE cov for ST fight will turn your entire spec to shit, prevent you from getting into groups and trigger "must...be...100%!" OCD, then so be it.

[goldlock]

Case and point. Single thing that can't be optimized freely and people loose their shit. Fok not different? So it would be a dps gain to use it on ST just like for example Spear of Bastion or Deaths Due??And leggos can help you make up for any potential dps loss from cov. But I feel like I'm sending signals to outer space here. If you are so sure that having AoE cov for ST fight will turn your entire spec to shit, prevent you from getting into groups and trigger "must...be...100%!" OCD, then so be it.

I mean... yes?

WoW works by who has the larger numbers consistently. If your numbers are lower eventually you get benched as players who want to do end game have a very strong tendency to climb till they plateau.

[Segus1992]

yeah except the one big change taht blizzard is refusing because it solves a made up problem

my god man its like you are matrix dodging the points

The problem is the entire point of Covenants though, so why would Blizzard just jump at that solution? Obviously they'll try everything else first, this isn't complicated.

WoW has almost nothing akin to an RPG choice these days - it used to be spec, race, class, how you choose to gear up (PvP vs PvE), and what gear you prefer (tank vs healer vs dps). Now it's just class (gear currently, but azerite is going away), even race barely matters. That's what they're trying to change with this, the "just let us swap" solution simply removes that.

[TheFirstOnes]

"no they really havent" @razorpax

Yes, they have. https://www.wowhead.com/news=250252/...el-blue-tweets There were early sightings of Demon Invasions even during the Alpha...

Even in Beta, they started to kick off most of the Pre-patch testing stuff...

Remember when people tested out the Broken Shore in the Legion Beta? Remember the BFA Beta stuff?

[goldlock]

The problem is the entire point of Covenants though, so why would Blizzard just jump at that solution? Obviously they'll try everything else first, this isn't complicated.

WoW has almost nothing akin to an RPG choice these days - it used to be spec, race, class, how you choose to gear up (PvP vs PvE), and what gear you prefer (tank vs healer vs dps). Now it's just class (gear currently, but azerite is going away), even race barely matters. That's what they're trying to change with this, the "just let us swap" solution simply removes that.

Didn't we get here though because most people found the old systems as terrible?

heck even gear would matter a lot more if blizzard stopped handing out heroic raid gear for easy to do bi weekly events. This feels like a answer looking for a problem.

[Segus1992]

Didn't we get here though because most people found the old systems as terrible?

heck even gear would matter a lot more if blizzard stopped handing out heroic raid gear for easy to do bi weekly events. This feels like a answer looking for a problem.

Respec costs being removed wasn't because people hated the choice, but because people hated having to pay to change it. Same with gear, and PvP/PvE gear - I can't speak for anyone else, but I always thought it was cool how your "main spec" affected your offspec through what gear you'd use because of it, such as PvP set bonus for tanking as a PvPer, or DPS gear for tanking. It became part of your identity.

Note, I'm not saying I support this decision fully, but I understand why they want Covenants to be a choice and I like the idea in theory - I just don't think Blizzard will be able to balance it sufficiently.

I just hope that they'll hold to their word about being able to swap easily if they fail to balance it - and that that doesn't happen in patch 9.2 if so.

[goldlock]

Respec costs being removed wasn't because people hated the choice, but because people hated having to pay to change it. Same with gear, and PvP/PvE gear - I can't speak for anyone else, but I always thought it was cool how your "main spec" affected your offspec through what gear you'd use because of it, such as PvP set bonus for tanking as a PvPer, or DPS gear for tanking. It became part of your identity.

Note, I'm not saying I support this decision fully, but I understand why they want Covenants to be a choice and I like the idea in theory - I just don't think Blizzard will be able to balance it sufficiently.

I just hope that they'll hold to their word about being able to swap easily if they fail to balance it - and that that doesn't happen in patch 9.2 if so.

I hope but I no longer expect anything. I just hope they hold off from nerfing it back and forth when not if one covenant shoots ahead of the others. They never balanced a system like this before and I doubt they will do better by making it more complex.

[Makabreska]

I mean... yes?

WoW works by who has the larger numbers consistently. If your numbers are lower eventually you get benched as players who want to do end game have a very strong tendency to climb till they plateau.

Ye sure and that's true for a minority of guilds, because what dps difference are we talking about? AGAIN, having subpar cov wont suddenly make you plummet on meters. And next fight may favor you. If raid leaders will start getting picky regarding covs, they simply won't have enough players to fill the raid.

[rrayy]

Yeah the line of thinking where bad players are entitled to join any group but everyone else isn't allowed to manage their own groups how they want without being demonized as elitist never made sense to me.

If you are bad just make your own groups. No one is required to carry you.

Because your "If a player doesn't do what I do how I do it, they are automatically bad" line of thinking is so much better right? And that is not elitist?

[Segus1992]

I hope but I no longer expect anything. I just hope they hold off from nerfing it back and forth when not if one covenant shoots ahead of the others. They never balanced a system like this before and I doubt they will do better by making it more complex.

Soulbinds are pretty clearly intended to be the "tuning knobs" for Covenant abilities that are too strong/weak but can't just be numerically nerfed.

I'm fairly certain PvE power will be mostly balanced (it's only a balance between 4 abilities that is needed, as it isn't directly a problem if class X gets more from their Covenant abilities overall than class Y - the rest is overall class balance), the issue will lie entirely in PvP (which is what I'm actually worried about, especially since I don't think Blizzard cares much about PvP imbalances) and M+ shenanigans.

[Krakan]

Soulbinds are pretty clearly intended to be the "tuning knobs" for Covenant abilities that are too strong/weak but can't just be numerically nerfed.

I'm fairly certain PvE power will be mostly balanced (it's only a balance between 4 abilities that is needed, as it isn't directly a problem if class X gets more from their Covenant abilities overall than class Y - the rest is overall class balance), the issue will lie entirely in PvP (which is what I'm actually worried about, especially since I don't think Blizzard cares much about PvP imbalances) and M+ shenanigans.

I mean... how many talent rows have dead talents in the current system ?

I fall into the skeptical side myself this is the company that took a decade to get racials of all things with a few % points of power difference .

[Hitei]

I mean... how many talent rows have dead talents in the current system ?

I fall into the skeptical side myself this is the company that took a decade to get racials of all things with a few % points of power difference .

Fewer than you'd think with something like 700+ talents, honestly. Especially if you look at Normal/Heroic rather than Mythic, which is really where you should look, since Mythic (especially high end) players are always going to focus on optimal rather than viable.

But I'd also say that balance wouldn't matter very much at all if not for the current climate in gaming. Even when racials were wildly imbalanced at the start of the game, most people were picking races for flavor and aesthetic not power.

The priest makeup of Classic is something like 22% dwarf, 22% human and 10% night elf for Alliance.
But in Vanilla it was something like 27% human, 25% night elf and 9% dwarf.

Basically the issue is that pretty much every single talent in the game is viable, but a large portion of modern players only care about what is optimal. And that is not something you can ever really balance against short of total homogenization. As soon as one thing sims even 0.5% better than another, people are going to favor that one, and getting talents that close is difficult without making them do the exact same thing. There's a reason why a lot of the extremely problematic rows (see: Havoc - First Blood row, Blood - Ossuary and Bloodworms rows) tend to be rows where the talents to wildly different things.

[Makabreska]

I mean... how many talent rows have dead talents in the current system ?

I fall into the skeptical side myself this is the company that took a decade to get racials of all things with a few % points of power difference .

It's clear that covs are most controversial feature of SL and blizz knows that. They will make sure to balance it, they kept reassuring us they can do it, it's been tested from day one and they already announced failsafe if system doesn't work. They treat this thing seriously.

[gunner_recall]

It's clear that covs are most controversial feature of SL and blizz knows that. They will make sure to balance it, they kept reassuring as they can, it's been tested from day one and they already announced failsafe if system doesn't work. They treat this thing seriously.

Exactly, and they already seem like they're pretty willing to let us change easily(but not necessarily change back easily) so it's probably going to be okay.

And if it's not then so what? You just have to hope they'll fix it later in the expansion and if they don't then it's just a couple of years.

[Segus1992]

I mean... how many talent rows have dead talents in the current system ?

I fall into the skeptical side myself this is the company that took a decade to get racials of all things with a few % points of power difference .

Too many (but there's also WAY more talents than Covenant abilities), but none of the talents are anything more than themselves though - you don't pick Gloomblade as Subtlety to hang out with your fellow Gloomblade mates and grind Gloomblade gear. Blizzard will have more pressure on them to balance Covenant abilities in terms of PvE power simply because they are harder to swap.

Azerite traits are the same, and there's hundreds of them. There's virtually no pressure on Blizzard to buff any Azerite traits (only to nerf outliers) since a poor Azerite trait has very little consequence as you can just not take it.

So: there's fewer Covenant abilities than talents and Azerite traits, and there's much more pressure to balance them. That's why I'm not worried about PvE power being roughly balanced.