You seem to be misremembering alot. The healing requirements between preBC and wotlk loatheb are skewed because of shadow prot pot chugging, bandages, whipper root tubers etc. that basically trivialized Loatheb healing wise. Not that it was hard to heal the fight in wotlk, it was a joke. Loatheb was not mechanically hard by any stretch of the imagination, whether it was the 40, 25 or the 10 man version.
It seems a little silly to call it progression when these private server guilds have cleared the instance 200 times over the last 15 years.
Wow guilds clear farm content really fast.
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I don't think Loatheb 40 is actually possible without shadow protection potions/bandages/healthstones unless you got a raid with full world buffs and a bunch of warriors. That seems to be absolutely the intent of the encounter. He melees twice as hard as Nefarian so every heal kinda needs to go to the tank.
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The game data seems to disagree. Maybe there's something with the frame rate in that video.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura
It's definitely two seconds in WOTLK.
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=28531/frost-aura
So effectively, the aura did 30% more damage at 80 vs 60. While people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.
Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.
It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are
- That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
- That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
- That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
- That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
- That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
- That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
- That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ_jxfX2ClY It's hard to imagine guilds that have killed it before wiping on WOTLK Kel'Thuzad for 5 hours.
Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-07-28 at 07:23 PM.
Hence the infamous "healbot" anagram in its name. I do, however, think it's very doable.
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You weren't in full frost resist gear at 80, therein lies the difference (not saying it's more or less or even the same, just pointing out the obvious caveat).
Last edited by Bjay; 2020-07-28 at 07:08 PM.
The need for FR gear is irrelevant to the discussion, though. We were simply talking about the difference in dmg values between ticks in 40 man and 25 man.
In the end, what it boils down to is how much each tick was doing relative to player's hp pool in 40man with FR and in 25/10 without FR in conjunction with differences in raidwide healing throughput between lvl 60 and 80.
Raidwide healing throughput is severely affected by having to wear frost resist gear so that seems pretty relevant.
It's not in much doubt that the 60 version is a lot more difficult. World buffed raids with players that have cleared the instance 200 times will still blow it up instantly of course.
And raidwide healing throughput is in turn severely affected by dropping all FR (larger throughput needed). Nobody did the fight with 0 FR when it was current though (to my knowledge), so in my opinion it's a moot point when discussing difference in tick values compared to hp pools and relative healing throughput.
The only x factor really (given x FR on everyone for argument's sake) is how much raidwide healing throughput is available in either version, the 40 man where healers are gimped throughput-wise and in the 10/25 where they aren't.
There is also zero doubt that the 60 version is more difficult than the 10/25 version. Whether the 60 version can be considered difficult on its own is another debate and in my opinion, highly subjective.
I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.
Kel'Thuzad is certainly a big one but the fights that are going to be absurdly more difficult at 60 than 80 are Gothik and Four Horsemen.
There's a number of other changes to encounters 60 vs 80 that are pretty serious.
Anub'Rekhan: Taunt immune tank death is a wipe. Locust Swarm did 1,000 damage per stack at 60 and 1,500 per stack at 80. 60 tanks would absolutely be one shot and needed to kite the boss, 80 tanks could just get healed through it.
Grand Widow Faerlina: Rain of Fire 2,000 at 60 4,000 at 80. HP quadrupled, so just a lot more tightly tuned. Also taunt immune.
Maexxna: This encounter is basically neutered at 80 and there's a number of reasons why. First HoTs can't be stacked at 60, only one druid can have regrowth up. Second, the raid wide stun is 10 seconds at 60 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=29484/web-spray and 6 seconds at 80 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=54125/web-spray. Third Maexxna's base melee damage is 29,000 at 80 and 9,727 at 60 so she hits around 25% harder at 60 relative to hp pools. Fourth she's taunt immune at 60. So it's far more likely your tank dies at 60 and even if your tank dies at 80 you can taunt and keep going. Finally web wraps are put high up on the wall and take fall damage at 60.
Noth the Plaguebringer: 20 curses vs 8 on 25-man. Taunt immunity means blink actually does something.
Heigan the Unclean: In the same time frame there's 15 explosions in the 60 version and 11 explosions in the 80 version. So the dance is 36% faster. Also there's the tunnel teleport mechanic at 60 that just doesn't exist at 80. 80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVX8x5dq3g start counting at 1:04 60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHcHTAGGso start counting at 2:10. Also, taunt immune.
Loatheb's been talked about. He's also taunt immune at 60.
Patchwerk: Not too dissimilar actually. There's three hateful tank slots at 60 vs two at 80 and the 60 version hits roughly 25% harder and has more effective HP vs dps.
Grobbulus: Basically the same.
Gluth: Taunt immune, tank swaps are done through threat. Infected wound increases damage taken by 100 at 60 and 100 at 80, so stacks are about 400% more dangerous at 60.
Thaddius: Stalagg has a mana burn aura at 60. Looking at video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOeAmq3USPI There's a six second safe window for polarity at 80 (charge switches at 1:50, starts doing damage at 1:56). The window is four seconds at 60, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQyZeI6QSk (3:16 polarity shifts, 3:20 starts doing damage) Thaddius, unlike many Naxxramas 60 bosses, is tauntable!
Razuvious: His shout instakills mana users at 60, but he doesn't have the dagger throw. Pretty similar, slightly more technical with LOS at 60.
Gothik: The tuning difference on this fight is fairly huge. A lot of guilds carefully CC tons of mobs at 60 to avoid being overwhelmed while it's a zergfest at 80. As a specific example, the arcane explosion the spectral trainees do does https://wotlkdb.com/?spell=27989 550 damage at 80 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27...cane-explosion 550 damage at 60. So it hits roughly 400% harder at 60. Also the undead side is immune to magic at 60.
Four Horsemen: This fight might have the biggest difference in difficulty. First all the Horsemen are mobile and melee at 60. Second Horsemen marks last 75 seconds at 60 instead of 25 seconds at 80, the marks become lethal around mark 4 at 60 and mark 6 at 80. Third the Horsemen shield wall at 75%, 50% and 25% HP for 20 seconds at 60 making them nearly impossible to zerg down. So instead of a quick zerg on Korth'azz there's a long, drawn out sequence of group switches. Other funny tuning differences the void zones do less damage at 80 than 60.
From a video of a level 70 player doing the encounter.
And a level 80
Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad have been talked about above.
Last edited by Nitros14; 2020-07-28 at 08:33 PM.
There is no wall in AQ40, as you can pwn huhu in like 30 seconds xD
Viscidus might be fun
From all things I've lost I miss my mind the most.
I believe I have an explanation for this and it has to do with the nature of periodic effects in classic. If you look at the spell that applies the DoT, it's applied every 2 seconds: https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28529/frost-aura
DoTs in classic reset their timers when they're reapplied. For example, on a Feral Druid, if you Rake, Rake, Rake 3 times in 3 seconds, you still aren't going to get your first DoT tick till 3 full seconds after your last Rake application. Likewise if you spam Corruption on a target (2 second cast time, 3 second tick time) you'll never actually get a damage tick off.
So what's going on in saph is this:
0 seconds - Frost Aura is applied
1 second - Frost Aura ticks
2 seconds - Frost Aura is reapplied (before the DoT gets to tick again)
3 seconds - Frost Aura ticks
4 seconds - Frost Aura is reapplied again...
So on and so forth. Easily verifiable from the video because if you go to the end of the video where they kill him, you can see the tick rate double as soon as he dies: https://youtu.be/iRW7EoVwmk0?t=570
Ticks at: 9:31 -> 9:33 -> 9:35 -> Saph dies -> 9:36 -> 9:37 -> 9:38 -> 9:39
Now, if you look at the one on live WoW, you'll note that it no longer has a duration and the application spell no longer even exists in the files. Due to this back end mechanics change they had to change the tickrate on the aura to every 2 seconds instead of 1 second in order to get the same behavior from it.
But due to this programming oddity, it's easy to see how someone could read that it ticks every second in vanilla, take that for granted and never think anymore about it. But during the encounter, it's always been 2 seconds.
So the aura did 167% more damage at 80 vs 60, but that's still a far cry when you compare it to the increase in hp and healing power.
Last edited by ShmooDude; 2020-07-29 at 01:34 AM.
You are right there, the raiders are quite tough to manage, my logistic point was aimed at material stuff, like gear and consumeables. Nevertheless, what does me not wanting to sink that much time into the game prove?
Also,what does the social conflict have to do with the raid's difficulty? It may be tough to keep 40+ people motivated. But with that logic, everything that involves more than a few people is difficult, which would just make that word almost meaningless.