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  1. #101
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    people talking about complexity, it sounds like they havent played the momentum side of the havoc, when we had bloodlet. That was fun in emerald nightmare, and they destroyed everyone. It also showed that none of yall know what you are talking about, as most demon hunters were Momo during that era. If you werent, you were bad, but then we had all the other dps harping on how op we were, and thus we got nerfed.

    Its not hard to learn a spec and rotation. Sorry, its not. IDC how many buttons you have to push, I had to push them too. At this point, its literally about all the damn gear and power (corruption). Once you learn a rotation, congrats, its not hard for you. I play demo lock, its fun to play, but its all around implosion, demonic tyrant, and cds right now. Hog, Shadowbolt, demonbolt, and puppies are just filler. Most rotations are pretty set, and flows with the idea that it is mostly the same, repeated buttons over and over again, with every now and then another one or 2 dynamic buttons reopening up.

    Yes, demonic is easy and simple, but that is what should be core to the demon hunter spec (along with all the borrowed powered given). Demon Hunters have been basically using the SAME TALENTS and the SAME BORROWED POWER since Legion after Momo was nerfed, and it looks like they will be using the same talents again. Im pretty sure at this point, after 2 expansions, other classes would have seen the MAJOR talents taken to be baked into their class (ie FIRST BLOOD). This is not a dps issue, numbers can be tuned. Its about the spec being broken.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by NabyBro View Post
    I would take away some utility from DH's first.
    Delete Blur.
    Add two new defensive abilities: one would give the DH 100% dodge for 10 seconds, one would reduce magic dmg taken by 40% for 10 seconds. They share cooldown (1 min).
    Delete the guaranteed dodging from Blade Dance.
    Make Chaos Nova a micro-stun (0.5 sec).

    Make Eye Beam a drain-resource ability that drains resource while you channel it. Remove its cooldown.
    Add a new single target ability on a 15 sec CD that generates high amounts of Fury (let's say 50). Hitting 3 enemies with Fel Rush would remove 5 seconds from its cooldown.
    Make Chaos Strike and Throw Glaive stack Chaos Marks on a target (max 5, can stack on multiple targets a the same time, last until consumed.)
    Add a new single target spender on a 8 second cooldown that would cost 15 fury. Consuming Chaos Marks deals X% bonus dmg per mark.
    Add a new 30 second cooldown spell that spends all Chaos Marks on a target to explode dealing damage in a radius and restoring Fury per target hit.

    Just some ideas on how to give Dh's some depth while keeping it simple.
    so momentum that noone would play? rofl

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    it's weird that DH started at it's most complex in EN then only got easier and easier each xpac.
    Because momentum was shit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    That double roll is killer, but WW go down like paper if you catch them. DHs do not.
    1v1 karma is prob the strongest pvp ability

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilsamee View Post
    you wont be able to fit in 2 death sweeps. if blade dance is even on 7 second cooldown and u go into demonic u cant even fit 1.

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    its because of borrowed powers.

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    thats the issue that worries me. in progress we always perform good coz we're a class that doesnt scale much with gear , once people have enough gear the only way to keep up is borrowed powers. we will be lucky to outdps a tank in shadowlands if things dont change, mark my words.

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    so there are better melee classes, which means dh arent in a good spot in world firsts

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    easy to play class doesnt mean being boring. it was an easy spec in bfa but far from boring. keep in mind we have 1 dps spec, 2 useless endrow talents that will never be picked, and the only 1 we used to pick gets nerfed.
    meta gives you haste baseline, so you'd get 2 with gear assuming you eyebeam then sweep

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    If you think any class in WoW is "hard" to play then yikes you're going to struggle with any other game on the market.

    They're all a joke now. Zero complexity or nuance. Most DPS specs are a basic builder spender.



    Havoc looks trash in Shadowlands. You would have expected them to get some new abilities as every other class got "un-pruned"(even though the unpruning was a joke).

    Havoc relies far too much on borrowed power. It's propped up by Azerite Traits and it was propped up by Legendaries and its Artifact.
    every class doesn't need heroic strike and windfury totem and mark of the wild

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oopsmezedya View Post
    its was so dumb that DH was attacking faster with faster animations that a *WINDWALKER* ffs, it urked me alot, i hope they go back to the iconic anime noob class thats easy to play for little kids but is only middle of the road dps where they belong for having so much survivability and ease of use
    they are middle of the road, you're just mediocre

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    I don't know a single class hard to play in this game. And by hard to play I mean something harder than 15/30 minutes on a online guide. I did 3/4 of the mage tower in legion with most classes I leveled up fast and did some lfr with. Some might be easier, yeah, but nothing to brag on. I did not try feral in BFA, and maybe it's hard, so I can't really tell, in legion it was the easiest mage tower challenge, I remember it mostly being a boring spec to play rather than hard.
    Hardest class to learn was probably demonology but until you figured out that you can just play perma doom guard, mage tower was easy.
    (hardest class to learn not hardest dps mage tower, cus none of the dps mage towers were hard)

    honorable mentions to sub rogue but yay for 3 buttons that do the exact same thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    people talking about complexity, it sounds like they havent played the momentum side of the havoc, when we had bloodlet. That was fun in emerald nightmare, and they destroyed everyone. It also showed that none of yall know what you are talking about, as most demon hunters were Momo during that era. If you werent, you were bad, but then we had all the other dps harping on how op we were, and thus we got nerfed.

    Its not hard to learn a spec and rotation. Sorry, its not. IDC how many buttons you have to push, I had to push them too. At this point, its literally about all the damn gear and power (corruption). Once you learn a rotation, congrats, its not hard for you. I play demo lock, its fun to play, but its all around implosion, demonic tyrant, and cds right now. Hog, Shadowbolt, demonbolt, and puppies are just filler. Most rotations are pretty set, and flows with the idea that it is mostly the same, repeated buttons over and over again, with every now and then another one or 2 dynamic buttons reopening up.

    Yes, demonic is easy and simple, but that is what should be core to the demon hunter spec (along with all the borrowed powered given). Demon Hunters have been basically using the SAME TALENTS and the SAME BORROWED POWER since Legion after Momo was nerfed, and it looks like they will be using the same talents again. Im pretty sure at this point, after 2 expansions, other classes would have seen the MAJOR talents taken to be baked into their class (ie FIRST BLOOD). This is not a dps issue, numbers can be tuned. Its about the spec being broken.
    BM and Destro use the same talents from legion too.

  3. #103
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    BM and Destro use the same talents from legion too.
    IDK about bm, but destro, you have different options for different scenarios. Some talents are dead, yes, but nothing compared to Havoc. Destro actually has some pretty decent options to choose from. THe only one that isnt a contest is Dark Soul. Cds align with cds, for big boom. And some of the sl talents look fun. (looking at you rain of chaos)

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    IDK about bm, but destro, you have different options for different scenarios. Some talents are dead, yes, but nothing compared to Havoc. Destro actually has some pretty decent options to choose from. THe only one that isnt a contest is Dark Soul. Cds align with cds, for big boom. And some of the sl talents look fun. (looking at you rain of chaos)
    Fair, but the point is that the playstyle was nigh identical. Just like with BM you had 1-2 floater talents, but if you played destro then and destro now, it'd be like nothing ever changed.

    Plus there are really only 2 dead rows in havoc. 110 row is locked and 106 row is locked.

    all the 99 tier options (bf/da/felblade) are viable
    2/3 for 100 tier
    2/3 for 102 tier
    104 tier is defensive and 2/3 are optimal with the third being a situational pick. Utility tier btw
    106 tier is locked to first blood
    108 tier is utility
    110 tier is locked to demonic. It actually isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Fair, but the point is that the playstyle was nigh identical. Just like with BM you had 1-2 floater talents, but if you played destro then and destro now, it'd be like nothing ever changed.

    Plus there are really only 2 dead rows in havoc. 110 row is locked and 106 row is locked.

    all the 99 tier options (bf/da/felblade) are viable
    2/3 for 100 tier
    2/3 for 102 tier
    104 tier is defensive and 2/3 are optimal with the third being a situational pick. Utility tier btw
    106 tier is locked to first blood
    108 tier is utility
    110 tier is locked to demonic. It actually isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
    Felblade is only good on pure single target when you have demon blades (only option to use felblade). Otherwise it is only Demonic Appetite, which work great in all situations. (felblade should be baseline for both specs, but thats another discussion). Its best when paired with momentum.

    Demon blades makes the spec feel like a one button spec, and over simplifies things. I like it, as i do not need to push demons bite every other second, but I think demons blades and demons bite need have some sort of fusion, cause as it is now, demons bite sucks, and demons blades makes everyone go OMG TOO SIMPLE (maybe they should get carpal tunnel). But if you play DB, ur playing with felblade, which means ur replacing Demons bite with felblade. Immolation aura is just good, hence why its baselined next expansion.

    The problem here, is 2 talents rely on each other; DB and FB. If you play one without the other, its terrible. A spec shouldnt be so cookie cutter and locked in. Rather, having options for different positions.

    102 is basically locked, unless its abunch of adds spawning every minute (which is fine), but trail of ruin is just that good.

    Demonic is locked in, no matter what. Its about the selfsustain included into it and you have ON DEMAND movement to get to x mob or to get out of random X bad. Nemesis is terrible (yes yes, i know, great for pvp burst, but I still hate it)

    Can 99 and 100 be changed? sure...for pure ST, but FB needs DB and DB needs FB, but its not as versatile as DA and IA. Not to mention, we need haste, and the haste from Furious Gaze borrowed power. So is there and option? Sure? I guess? Id rather have an extra button to push (IA) than replace Demons bite with DB and FB, have a burst of fury and a little extra AoE dmg.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    Felblade is only good on pure single target when you have demon blades (only option to use felblade). Otherwise it is only Demonic Appetite, which work great in all situations. (felblade should be baseline for both specs, but thats another discussion). Its best when paired with momentum.

    Demon blades makes the spec feel like a one button spec, and over simplifies things. I like it, as i do not need to push demons bite every other second, but I think demons blades and demons bite need have some sort of fusion, cause as it is now, demons bite sucks, and demons blades makes everyone go OMG TOO SIMPLE (maybe they should get carpal tunnel). But if you play DB, ur playing with felblade, which means ur replacing Demons bite with felblade. Immolation aura is just good, hence why its baselined next expansion.

    The problem here, is 2 talents rely on each other; DB and FB. If you play one without the other, its terrible. A spec shouldnt be so cookie cutter and locked in. Rather, having options for different positions.

    102 is basically locked, unless its abunch of adds spawning every minute (which is fine), but trail of ruin is just that good.

    Demonic is locked in, no matter what. Its about the selfsustain included into it and you have ON DEMAND movement to get to x mob or to get out of random X bad. Nemesis is terrible (yes yes, i know, great for pvp burst, but I still hate it)

    Can 99 and 100 be changed? sure...for pure ST, but FB needs DB and DB needs FB, but its not as versatile as DA and IA. Not to mention, we need haste, and the haste from Furious Gaze borrowed power. So is there and option? Sure? I guess? Id rather have an extra button to push (IA) than replace Demons bite with DB and FB, have a burst of fury and a little extra AoE dmg.
    so you mean that having a choice isnt a choice?

  7. #107
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    In the end there will always be best mathed out option, especially end of expansion when stats are so bloated.

    Like people floated Destruction here as example, we basically changed 15 and 30 row talents we use mid 8.3 patch because at some point we stacked enough Expedient for that to be come outright superior under vast majority of circumstances, even despite higher skill cap - as in, even if you fuck it up, it's still better. In 8.2, for example, it simmed slightly better already, but nobody took it because the tiny difference was not worth the potential loss from failures not accounted in sim.

    On the other hand there are of course these combination of talents that are simply nobrainer superior together, like our 90 and 100 - Supremacy and DSI simply feeding each other and being fed by stats, Azshara trinket and essences as well.

    All in all talent balance is overwhelmingly tied to what gear there is around, after all when you start getting proper gear the scaling usually forces talent choices, even if at start of expansion there might have been deliberations. Playing the game for 15 years, I do not live in some dream world where I expect Blizz to balance talents for 36 bloody specs every patch compensating for zillion gear options that pop up, so yes - I will have that cookie cutter path as usual and it won't really bother me much, because it's inevitable anyway.

    ---

    So yeah, even if they outdo themselves and give every spec 3 equally viable throughput talent setups, then all it would take to topple that house of cards is something simple like a single trinket like Font of Azshara for many specs, let alone all the bajillion layers of gear, systems and what not that inevitably come every patch.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-07-29 at 10:57 AM.

  8. #108
    I have no sympathy, demon hunters took away metamorphosis from us.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Fire mages?

    I don't really know a hard class to play myself all day classes are mostly builders and spenders or so broken they are never played.
    ye legit. big meme when these people struggling on m+10 keys start spamming how easy DH is when you check their logs they overcapping and missing GCD's 24/7 xD Easy class kappa when they can't even perform

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    So yeah, even if they outdo themselves and give every spec 3 equally viable throughput talent setups, then all it would take to topple that house of cards is something simple like a single trinket like Font of Azshara for many specs, let alone all the bajillion layers of gear, systems and what not that inevitably come every patch.
    No one (with realistic expectations) is asking for every talent to have a usecase in every type of content every tier. The issue with talents arises when people have been picking the same talent in all content all the time since the nighthold (for demonic and firstblood in this thread's case).

    There is literally no excuse for a spec's two most important throughput rows to be dead for three and a half years.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  11. #111
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    No one (with realistic expectations) is asking for every talent to have a usecase in every type of content every tier. The issue with talents arises when people have been picking the same talent in all content all the time since the nighthold (for demonic and firstblood in this thread's case).

    There is literally no excuse for a spec's two most important throughput rows to be dead for three and a half years.
    Frankly, in my opinion, the whole last row of DH talents aside from Demonic sucks balls. Like Nemesis is outright lame on a gameplay level and Momentum, IMO, is too annoying to have as a go to choice. I think many Demon Hunters are really glad Demonic is the thing to go for, especially because it's pretty fun too, I know I am with my dusty DH alt.

    No excuse, eh... TBH some talents are just that good and the alternative of Blizz tossing themselves at that is not always better, like going back to Destruction in Shadowlands where Supremacy was replaced by absolute shitfest RNG talent that is passive as fuck to boot. I don't follow DH changes, but I am not sure people would like alternative talents viability to come at cost of gutting Demonic. You'd get your desired choice of switching to another talent that row, but do you truly want Nemesis or even Moment to be a thing?

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Frankly, in my opinion, the whole last row of DH talents aside from Demonic sucks balls. Like Nemesis is outright lame on a gameplay level and Momentum, IMO, is too annoying to have as a go to choice. I think many Demon Hunters are really glad Demonic is the thing to go for, especially because it's pretty fun too, I know I am with my dusty DH alt.
    The other talents suck but that's a separate issue, remember Chaos blades used to exist and it was fine, boring but fine.

    I mean really if we're in a situation where the argument is "You should be happy you effectively don't have a capstone talent row, think how bad it could be", that's not really a defence for blizzard. That just means the other options in the row are not only weak but also badly designed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    No excuse, eh... TBH some talents are just that good and the alternative of Blizz tossing themselves at that is not always better, like going back to Destruction in Shadowlands where Supremacy was replaced by absolute shitfest RNG talent that is passive as fuck to boot. I don't follow DH changes, but I am not sure people would like alternative talents viability to come at cost of gutting Demonic.
    Situations like what you are describing is why blizzard should be iterating on talent design every patch, not just throughput. Of course, if blizzard's position is "We can only meaningfully change talents during an alpha every two years" you're going to end up with busted talents and dead rows.

    That's not even getting into clearly the current design direction is to get the talents in a position where they're 'good enough' (as is clearly the case right now with demonic being not only the best designed but also just the best in all situations) and then abandon them so they can distract the playerbase with modular borrowed power that can easily plug-in and pull out to streamline design time.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Situations like what you are describing is why blizzard should be iterating on talent design every patch, not just throughput. Of course, if blizzard's position is "We can only meaningfully change talents during an alpha every two years" you're going to end up with busted talents and dead rows.
    They can't do it in scope you are hoping for and really in-between them doing tomfoolery with talents ever patch and delivering mid-expansion patches at half year cadence - I overwhelmingly choose the consistent delivery. So yes, maybe my Grimoire of Supremacy talent pick got covered with 500 layers of cobweb, but on the other hand - I did get 8.1, 8.2 and 8.3 in a timely manner.

    They do address things that are an absolute trainwreck mid expansion (for example that sneak redesign of Destruction redesign at start of Legion), but something like one talent in a row being better than the rest is hardly the same level.

    It is really a conscious decision that rather than running after their own tail every patch with a big potential to fuck up hard, they'd rather push out new content fast. There is also a case of consistency - not everyone wants to log in and find their favorite spec changed every half a year.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    They can't do it in scope you are hoping for and really in-between them doing tomfoolery with talents ever patch and delivering mid-expansion patches at half year cadence - I overwhelmingly choose the consistent delivery. So yes, maybe my Grimoire of Supremacy talent pick got covered with 500 layers of cobweb, but on the other hand - I did get 8.1, 8.2 and 8.3 in a timely manner.
    *snip*
    It is really a conscious decision that rather than running after their own tail every patch with a big potential to fuck up hard, they'd rather push out new content fast. There is also a case of consistency - not everyone wants to log in and find their favorite spec changed every half a year.
    I'm not suggesting every talent has to be redesigned every patch, what I was trying to say (perhaps I was unclear) is that obvious long term outliers (like we're getting up on half a decade for some talents here) that no amount of gear scaling will shake-up need to have potential to be on the chopping block. It doesn't even have to be every single problem talent every single patch, that's why it's iterative.
    I mean you clearly know grimoire of supremacy was a problem, blizzard clearly knows it which is why they changed it in shadowlands (to arguable effect). That means it is a problem just because they'rd rather hide the problem behind azerite traits or essences doesn't mean its not a problem.

    As for you final point, blizzard trots this line out all the time but it just doesn't seem like it makes any sense? So the go-to talent changing with gear scaling during a patch is ok or blizzard changing the numbers at the start of a patch to change the meta talent is ok. But changing a talent at the start of a patch is not ok because only this change theoretically impacts the section of the player base that simultaneously want to play their favourite talent AND want to be strong?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    As for you final point, blizzard trots this line out all the time but it just doesn't seem like it makes any sense? So the go-to talent changing with gear scaling during a patch is ok or blizzard changing the numbers at the start of a patch to change the meta talent is ok. But changing a talent at the start of a patch is not ok because only this change theoretically impacts the section of the player base that simultaneously want to play their favourite talent AND want to be strong?
    Window for numbers changes at the beginning of the patch is very small - heroic week and that's it. It's definitely not the time for mechanical changes, you get your usual 5% there 3% here, because that's all that can be done in literal 3 days before Mythic unlocks and that window is closed for months.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    OK, but why? There are 12 different classes to choose from, and if you must have complexity to have fun and feel satisfied/accomplished, there are other classes to play that could scratch that itch. I'm not a DH main, but I recognize that they do more with less than other classes do.

    Why do you feel it is a negative to have an easy class? Do you think it would create over-representation? Would that not in itself be a tacit criticism of complexity in class design, or do you (or anyone) feel that would remove a sense of accomplishment if other players could achieve similar goals with less complex gameplay?
    We have a talent system that can be used to simplify a class more, there is no reason to oversimplify gameplay as the norm. Each class has a specific fantasy and if you want to play that class fantasy, its not really possible to say "just play another class".

    Again, it you want to give DH a simple playstyle through talents, no problem. Demonblades takes one button away, if you do not opt into first blood or demonic, you are already down to a 1-button-spec. That spec should of course be on the last place in terms of dps compared to all other specs in the game, but if you want to play that, go ahead.
    Doesnt mean that the base gameplay should be shit.

  17. #117
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    so you mean that having a choice isnt a choice?
    No, its the idea of choice. If you read it, then u have 0 choice. DA and IA is better in all situations, as its versatile. Did you not read what I wrote? You believing that FB and DB is a choice is a lie. Numbers are close, yes, but it doesnt matter. What would u rather have? On demand fury generation during demonic window, or hope DB procs? (hint here, its the fury generation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    I have no sympathy, demon hunters took away metamorphosis from us.
    As a lock player since vanilla wow, meta was never ours. Rather, I never understood the reasoning why we got it, until we finally got the lore of the council and kanrethad developing his own form of it after being there and killing illidan. (Think it was cata we learned this and then learned of what happened to kanrethad in MoP).

    Demonology was always about demons, and boosting your demons... until wotlk, when we got meta cd. God I miss shadowbolt volley from beta wotlk. But, no, Demon Hunter spell is a DH spell since W3. Now, if you were to say death coil, id be with you, since it was introduced in w2. (the death knights in that game are just the shadow council's warlock spirits placed into human paladins).

    But, they apparently had plans to add Demon Hunters since MoP, as the original iteration of the Demonology revamp is more akin to Demon Hunter playstyle (they even named the tanking glyph as demon hunting), but they did follow threw with the plans and we saw Demo get canned for most of WoD (cases of chaos wave being super OP on adds, hence the huge nerf) as they didnt want that iteration to be viable.

  18. #118
    Chaos Strike, Eye Beam and Immo Aura are at least three abilities they will always use in ST.

  19. #119
    So, the whole point of this thread was "I am entitled, and since I don't like this class it needs to be made into my liking". I cant believe this thread is still going. If it was, maybe because of changes (like they did to unholy Death Knight spec), maybe it would make sense, but I don't see the point of complaining because I dont like a class that other people do. I wouldnt go crying to change Shadow Priests, because, hell, there is that 1 person that likes to play their Shadow Priest I'm sure, and I get 3 other classes I enjoy instead.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Razi80 View Post
    To all those saying DH is middle pack dps.

    Just check the first 3 pages of top dps for M+ on Warcraft logs and raider.io: 99,9% are only DH, mages and rogues.
    And the best melee dps in raids, aside from what warriors, that only do some actual dps sub 20% boss hp.

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