Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
... LastLast
  1. #101
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Unfortunately, it was said by the Pentagon - contractor working for the Pentagon, even former, counts.
    What? Hell no it doesn't count. Same as me saying something is totally different then the Army saying something. Just because it is a job I used to have does not mean I have the authority to speak on their behalf, nor is it a guarantee that I know what I am talking about.

    The Pentagon is the largest office building in the world, the system of contractors around it is beyond massive. There is no credibility that inherent to being a contractor in at the Pentagon, even we are talking the actual building, and not "Pentagon" in a more nebulous term, which is even more useless.

    Totally agree about Aliens being a national security threat - but if they can get to our planet, then we're fucked - because their tech is way beyond ours.

    Are you a science fiction fan? Novels I mean.
    That is in no way what I said. I said UFOs are a national security threat, not Aliens. A UFO is any flying object that cannot be Identified. The term is literally one of those sterile military acronyms that means exactly what it says "Unidentified Flying Object". Nothing about the term refers to, or implies, extraterrestial origins.

    A UFO is a national security threat because it is something flying around, and we don't know what it is. That means you can't rule out that it is something that is potentially harmful to our national interests, so we would like to be able to identify them so we know if we have a problem or not. The end goal is to turn UFOs into specific flying objects, like Aircraft, Weather Phenomena, or whatever. If they are extraterrestrial beings, we would like to know that as well.

    To give some idea of the reality of these things, without the sensationalism, your average military airfield detects a couple hundred to a thousand UFOs per day. Because every single thing that is detected on any of the radars or sensors is assigned a tracking number and flight path, so that airplanes don't run into them. Most of these go into broad categories like "Probably a Bird" "Probably Wind-blown debris" "Probably Radar reflection" and are thus never investigated again, because nobody has time to determine if the radar signature that looks suspiciously like a flock of Pigeons is actually a flock of Pigeons. You can't definitively state it WAS Pigeons, because you never verified the contact, but the signature can be explained by pigeons, and thus is assumed to be mundane.

    An actual aircraft that cannot be identified is a significantly more serious prospect. The government likes to know what all aircraft in its airspace are doing. Who owns them, where they are going, and what they are doing along the way. So if an aircraft doesn't have a flight plan on record, and you don't know what it is, that is a National Security risk. These are the ones the government is most concerned with.

    The last category is actual anomalous signatures that can't be adequately explained with any common explanation. These are the ones that people assume are the entirety of the "UFO" catagory, but is reality a minuscule percentage of them. By definition, we do not know what these are, and contrary to what conspiracy theorists would have you believe, they do not have consistent traits. It is relatively easy to pick a subset of these reports that do share characteristics, but that is just a matter of combing data until you find what you are looking for. From there, the pop culture approach is to recite cherry picked data over ominous music, and then jump immediately to wild speculation. This is not what the military does, and is not helpful to actually figuring out what specific examples are. It is not statistically possible to have one explanation for all these.

  2. #102
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by StayTuned View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not going to die on this hill at the end of the day. I'll be waiting for the Pentagon to deliver. I'm sure they will soon. And it's totally going to be aliens.
    Fair enough, and for the record, I agree - there is no way the Pentagon will be releasing this information. If anything Congress will do it - but also, probably not, lol.

    Is that "soon" like Blizzards "soon"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    What? Hell no it doesn't count. Same as me saying something is totally different then the Army saying something. Just because it is a job I used to have does not mean I have the authority to speak on their behalf, nor is it a guarantee that I know what I am talking about.

    The Pentagon is the largest office building in the world, the system of contractors around it is beyond massive. There is no credibility that inherent to being a contractor in at the Pentagon, even we are talking the actual building, and not "Pentagon" in a more nebulous term, which is even more useless.
    Unfortunately, you're wrong. The article points out that he was a contractor at the time, hence "former", when it happened. As a contractor, he is an agent of his employer, and therefore eligible to speak on their behalf - and his employer is responsible for his actions, etc.

    You're referring to "credibility", not agent status - which are two entirely different things. I never even mentioned his credibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    That is in no way what I said. I said UFOs are a national security threat, not Aliens. A UFO is any flying object that cannot be Identified. The term is literally one of those sterile military acronyms that means exactly what it says "Unidentified Flying Object". Nothing about the term refers to, or implies, extraterrestial origins.
    Of course UFO includes extraterrestrial objects/origins. How could it not? You just agreed it did, when you said "A UFO is any flying object that cannot be Identified" - it's in bold above, for reference. If you can't identify an object, you cannot eliminate the possibility that it's extraterrestrial.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    A UFO is a national security threat because it is something flying around, and we don't know what it is. That means you can't rule out that it is something that is potentially harmful to our national interests, so we would like to be able to identify them so we know if we have a problem or not. The end goal is to turn UFOs into specific flying objects, like Aircraft, Weather Phenomena, or whatever. If they are extraterrestrial beings, we would like to know that as well.

    To give some idea of the reality of these things, without the sensationalism, your average military airfield detects a couple hundred to a thousand UFOs per day. Because every single thing that is detected on any of the radars or sensors is assigned a tracking number and flight path, so that airplanes don't run into them. Most of these go into broad categories like "Probably a Bird" "Probably Wind-blown debris" "Probably Radar reflection" and are thus never investigated again, because nobody has time to determine if the radar signature that looks suspiciously like a flock of Pigeons is actually a flock of Pigeons. You can't definitively state it WAS Pigeons, because you never verified the contact, but the signature can be explained by pigeons, and thus is assumed to be mundane.

    An actual aircraft that cannot be identified is a significantly more serious prospect. The government likes to know what all aircraft in its airspace are doing. Who owns them, where they are going, and what they are doing along the way. So if an aircraft doesn't have a flight plan on record, and you don't know what it is, that is a National Security risk. These are the ones the government is most concerned with.

    The last category is actual anomalous signatures that can't be adequately explained with any common explanation. These are the ones that people assume are the entirety of the "UFO" catagory, but is reality a minuscule percentage of them. By definition, we do not know what these are, and contrary to what conspiracy theorists would have you believe, they do not have consistent traits. It is relatively easy to pick a subset of these reports that do share characteristics, but that is just a matter of combing data until you find what you are looking for. From there, the pop culture approach is to recite cherry picked data over ominous music, and then jump immediately to wild speculation. This is not what the military does, and is not helpful to actually figuring out what specific examples are. It is not statistically possible to have one explanation for all these.
    Good info, and good point. I had no idea there were so many UFO designations per day. Thanks for that.

  3. #103
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Unfortunately, you're wrong. The article points out that he was a contractor at the time, hence "former", when it happened. As a contractor, he is an agent of his employer, and therefore eligible to speak on their behalf - and his employer is responsible for his actions, etc.

    You're referring to "credibility", not agent status - which are two entirely different things. I never even mentioned his credibility.
    No it doesn't, and that is a really weird definition of agency. I have a cousin that works at Walmart, if he says something batshit crazy, the media shouldn't run a story that says "Walmart says that toothpaste is turning the friggin frogs gay!". Because working for Walmart is not the same as speaking for Walmart, because it isn't some gestalt hive mind. The Pentagon is an even more extreme example then Walmart is.

    Of course UFO includes extraterrestrial objects/origins. How could it not? You just agreed it did, when you said "A UFO is any flying object that cannot be Identified" - it's in bold above, for reference. If you can't identify an object, you cannot eliminate the possibility that it's extraterrestrial.
    Of course it does, however UFO includes everything, and is no way limited to extraterrestrial objects. In fact, we have no idea if extraterrestrial objects are a part of that sample group at all (Well, meteors are definitely a part of that group, and they are extraterrestrial). However there is no reason to assign extra-terrestial origins to any of this group, because it has not been proven it is a valid value for the group.

    Take this statistical example. Lets say you get 100,000,000 Jelly Beans out of a giant ceramic jar (No clear sides, you can't see inside). All the Jelly Beans you got are either Red, White, Black, or Green. They represent the sample group of known Jelly Beans, which have been definitively identified. Inside the jar is all the Jelly Beans that have not been withdrawn and identified. So the question is, does the sample group of unknown Jelly Beans include Blue and Yellow Jelly Beans? By definition, the unknown group of Jelly Beans includes all possibilities for unknown Jelly Beans, so if there are Blue and Yellow Jelly beans, they are definitely unknown. But we don't know if there were any Blue or Yellow Jelly Beans in the jar in the first place. The fact that the 100,000,000 examples we do have contain zero examples of those colors means that there probably aren't any. But of course we can't prove that for sure until we identify every single Jelly Bean. Until that happens, people can continue to speculate about the mythical blue jelly bean that might exist.

  4. #104
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    This is not what the military does, and is not helpful to actually figuring out what specific examples are. It is not statistically possible to have one explanation for all these.
    To put it into another context to demonstrate how silly this is, imagine there's some recordings from National Park Service audio microphones out in the wilderness. They hear weird noises now and then. Those noises don't precisely fit any known animal's calls.

    It could be an animal with a defect or mutation that causes a vocal shift.
    It could be an animal in distress that isn't calling in its normal pattern/range (rabbits screaming when terrified is something that freaks pretty much everyone out, for instance, they sound weirdly human).
    It could be people out there fucking with the microphone because it's funny.
    It could be an idiot hunter with a terrible call device, poaching inside the park.

    And sure, could be a Sasquatch.

    But why the hell would "must be a Sasquatch" be the first idea you jump at? That's what's bananas. There are so many more far more likely possibilities. And generally, with greater scrutiny (read: basically any scrutiny), we can usually figure out what's going on. Even if we can't, doesn't mean "must be aliens/Bigfoot", just means it's something fairly unique or weird for some reason. Or maybe it could be a few things and there's no way to distinguish.


  5. #105
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To put it into another context to demonstrate how silly this is, imagine there's some recordings from National Park Service audio microphones out in the wilderness. They hear weird noises now and then. Those noises don't precisely fit any known animal's calls.

    It could be an animal with a defect or mutation that causes a vocal shift.
    It could be an animal in distress that isn't calling in its normal pattern/range (rabbits screaming when terrified is something that freaks pretty much everyone out, for instance, they sound weirdly human).
    It could be people out there fucking with the microphone because it's funny.
    It could be an idiot hunter with a terrible call device, poaching inside the park.

    And sure, could be a Sasquatch.

    But why the hell would "must be a Sasquatch" be the first idea you jump at? That's what's bananas. There are so many more far more likely possibilities. And generally, with greater scrutiny (read: basically any scrutiny), we can usually figure out what's going on. Even if we can't, doesn't mean "must be aliens/Bigfoot", just means it's something fairly unique or weird for some reason. Or maybe it could be a few things and there's no way to distinguish.
    Yeah, I wasn't going to bring Sasquatch into it, because people who believe in one particular type of Psuedo-science tend to get offended at comparisons to others. People who believe in Sasquatch may think Ghosts are silly, and people who believe in Crystal Healing may be offended by comparisons with Anti-Vaccers.

    But it is all the same mental process. "Something I can't explain" is not evidence for anything in particular. That is the main leap that all of them take. If you don't understand how something works, or what it is, that does not mean it is something particularly exotic. It certainly doesn't mean it is one particular exotic thing that you want to believe it is.

    Sasquatch is totally real. So are Ghosts. So are UFOs. Each of these is a collective term for things that the observer cannot adequately explain. That doesn't mean nobody can explain it, it just means that particular person can't explain it. To many people, the call of a Bobcat or a Cougar might as well be Sasquatch, because the sound is nothing like what they expected. But there is probably no Giant Ape in the North American Wilderness, and Grandma probably isn't haunting your attic, and the Xenomages of Xorbon B are probably not hanging out over Denver. You can't prove they aren't, but probably not.
    Last edited by Thekri; 2020-07-27 at 07:38 PM.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To put it into another context to demonstrate how silly this is, imagine there's some recordings from National Park Service audio microphones out in the wilderness. They hear weird noises now and then. Those noises don't precisely fit any known animal's calls.

    It could be an animal with a defect or mutation that causes a vocal shift.
    It could be an animal in distress that isn't calling in its normal pattern/range (rabbits screaming when terrified is something that freaks pretty much everyone out, for instance, they sound weirdly human).
    It could be people out there fucking with the microphone because it's funny.
    It could be an idiot hunter with a terrible call device, poaching inside the park.

    And sure, could be a Sasquatch.

    But why the hell would "must be a Sasquatch" be the first idea you jump at? That's what's bananas. There are so many more far more likely possibilities. And generally, with greater scrutiny (read: basically any scrutiny), we can usually figure out what's going on. Even if we can't, doesn't mean "must be aliens/Bigfoot", just means it's something fairly unique or weird for some reason. Or maybe it could be a few things and there's no way to distinguish.
    Good point, I hate to psychologize but I get the feeling that alien enthusiasts may actually desire a "higher intelligence/agents" theory when they're choosing among the available theories. It also reminds me of the "hyperactive agency detection" theory that says evolution gave us an initial bias towards detecting agency in observations because it could confer a survival benefit.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-07-27 at 08:52 PM.

  7. #107
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    No it doesn't, and that is a really weird definition of agency. I have a cousin that works at Walmart, if he says something batshit crazy, the media shouldn't run a story that says "Walmart says that toothpaste is turning the friggin frogs gay!". Because working for Walmart is not the same as speaking for Walmart, because it isn't some gestalt hive mind. The Pentagon is an even more extreme example then Walmart is.
    Walmart employees usually aren't the same status as Pentagon employees. In the case of a Pentagon contractor, they are considered agents of their employer, to a certain degree, depending on a number of factors. Walmart employees, at least the regular hourly folks, are not - because of their employment status. If you want a primer on employment law, we can go down that road, but it is ridiculously boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Of course it does, however UFO includes everything, and is no way limited to extraterrestrial objects. In fact, we have no idea if extraterrestrial objects are a part of that sample group at all (Well, meteors are definitely a part of that group, and they are extraterrestrial). However there is no reason to assign extra-terrestial origins to any of this group, because it has not been proven it is a valid value for the group.

    Take this statistical example. Lets say you get 100,000,000 Jelly Beans out of a giant ceramic jar (No clear sides, you can't see inside). All the Jelly Beans you got are either Red, White, Black, or Green. They represent the sample group of known Jelly Beans, which have been definitively identified. Inside the jar is all the Jelly Beans that have not been withdrawn and identified. So the question is, does the sample group of unknown Jelly Beans include Blue and Yellow Jelly Beans? By definition, the unknown group of Jelly Beans includes all possibilities for unknown Jelly Beans, so if there are Blue and Yellow Jelly beans, they are definitely unknown. But we don't know if there were any Blue or Yellow Jelly Beans in the jar in the first place. The fact that the 100,000,000 examples we do have contain zero examples of those colors means that there probably aren't any. But of course we can't prove that for sure until we identify every single Jelly Bean. Until that happens, people can continue to speculate about the mythical blue jelly bean that might exist.
    And I am not disagreeing that UFO includes everything, I was just pointing out that it also includes "aliens". You had indicated it might not, and I was just seeking clarification.

  8. #108
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    6,167
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Walmart employees usually aren't the same status as Pentagon employees. In the case of a Pentagon contractor, they are considered agents of their employer, to a certain degree, depending on a number of factors. Walmart employees, at least the regular hourly folks, are not - because of their employment status. If you want a primer on employment law, we can go down that road, but it is ridiculously boring.
    Really confused by this line of argument. You know what a contractor is, right? A contractor does not work for the federal government, they are not part of the organization, and they certainly do not speak for the DoD in any way. I dealt with thousands of defense contractors (mostly indirectly) the unit I commanded had about 400 of them attached to us. No way in hell any of those guys could speak for my unit. To assume that one of them could speak for the entire DoD is even more outrageous. It isn't me that needs a primer on employment law, I have no idea why you think a contractor has more agency then a full time employee. Contractors are treated like shit everywhere, because they are specifically NOT employees.

    And I am not disagreeing that UFO includes everything, I was just pointing out that it also includes "aliens". You had indicated it might not, and I was just seeking clarification.
    It does not include aliens UNLESS aliens exist. The fact the catagory would include them if they did exist does not constitute evidence that they do exist. If there are no alien spacecraft flying around in earths atmosphere, then there is no catagory of "UFO" that includes them, because there are no Flying Objects to fail to identify. It includes the possibility of alien spacecraft, just as my example above includes the possibility of Blue Jelly beans. There is no guarantee that any actual objects fall in that catagory however, and considering the entire sample group of identified objects does not include a single extraterrestrial being, I think it improbable.

    I am not so closed minded as to rule it out, and I acknowledge it is a fun thought exercise, but I don't see anything compelling to make me a "Believer". Nor do I think you should ever be a "Believer" in something like that, because that triggers confirmation bias instead of an open, but skeptical mind.

  9. #109
    The Undying
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    34,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Really confused by this line of argument. You know what a contractor is, right? A contractor does not work for the federal government, they are not part of the organization, and they certainly do not speak for the DoD in any way. I dealt with thousands of defense contractors (mostly indirectly) the unit I commanded had about 400 of them attached to us. No way in hell any of those guys could speak for my unit. To assume that one of them could speak for the entire DoD is even more outrageous. It isn't me that needs a primer on employment law, I have no idea why you think a contractor has more agency then a full time employee. Contractors are treated like shit everywhere, because they are specifically NOT employees.
    So someone contracting to be the Press Secretary for the Pentagon couldn't speak for the Pentagon?

    I've taught employment law, and agency status at it's simplest is still complicated. Agency status typically comes from your employment agreement - either FTE or Contractor. Your brief summary of Employment Law, in your limited experience, just speaks to what you don't know about it - and that's fine, no one is asking you to know a lot about it. And I'm not saying I know everything, but I have experience in it, and the guy in the articles status is at the very least unknown.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    It does not include aliens UNLESS aliens exist. The fact the catagory would include them if they did exist does not constitute evidence that they do exist. If there are no alien spacecraft flying around in earths atmosphere, then there is no catagory of "UFO" that includes them, because there are no Flying Objects to fail to identify. It includes the possibility of alien spacecraft, just as my example above includes the possibility of Blue Jelly beans. There is no guarantee that any actual objects fall in that catagory however, and considering the entire sample group of identified objects does not include a single extraterrestrial being, I think it improbable.
    Right - so aliens could exist. So UFO's, defined by you as "could be anything", must, by definition, include things that might exist. So UFO's include alien aircraft.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I am not so closed minded as to rule it out, and I acknowledge it is a fun thought exercise, but I don't see anything compelling to make me a "Believer". Nor do I think you should ever be a "Believer" in something like that, because that triggers confirmation bias instead of an open, but skeptical mind.
    No one asked you to believe, that is a conversation for a separate thread.
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-07-27 at 10:04 PM.

  10. #110
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Nor do I think you should ever be a "Believer" in something like that, because that triggers confirmation bias instead of an open, but skeptical mind.
    Exactly yeah that's what my avatar is based on. For any given theory that is only backed up by repeated observations we should only seek theory falsification and never seek out evidence of correctness.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-07-27 at 11:06 PM.

  11. #111

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by deanwinchester777 View Post
    Space aliens don't exist.
    Once we colonize other planets, those space foreigners would like a word with you!

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Once we colonize other planets, those space foreigners would like a word with you!
    Well I personally don't think we will ever colonize other planets, for reasons.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by deanwinchester777 View Post
    Well I personally don't think we will ever colonize other planets, for reasons.
    People said the same about flying.

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    USA, Ohio
    Posts
    24,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    People said the same about flying.
    We certainly can colonize the moon and maybe Mars. But much beyond Mars, is going to take a long, long time and unless we improve on our ridiculously slow space travel, even that may never happen. Possible? Of course.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  16. #116
    It is literally impossible from the sheer size of the visible universe alone and with the chemical makeup of the majority of that matter we see being the building blocks for life as we personally know it, it is impossible life did not happen elsewhere.

    Also people never consider that technology advanced enough to travel to us from great distances would leave no traces other than what they chose to let us keep. Even if one ever crashed here their technology would be advanced enough to retrieve it without us even knowing anyways.
    Lead Game Designer

    YouTube Channel

    https://www.youtube.com/@Nateanderthal

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    We certainly can colonize the moon and maybe Mars. But much beyond Mars, is going to take a long, long time and unless we improve on our ridiculously slow space travel, even that may never happen. Possible? Of course.
    One way Colonizing ships are most certainly doable.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    So, I just looked this up. Where did you find this? Nothing I found said this at all and most said they very much were worried that china or russia had made huge leaps in their technology.

    I would love for the government to come clean about other life forms. That being said, I doubt they would. We cant even get along with ourselfs. Why would a race of advanced beings want to interact with a violent race like ours?
    I would get along with them just fine, there are far too many close minded people who are also willfully ignorant.
    Lead Game Designer

    YouTube Channel

    https://www.youtube.com/@Nateanderthal

  19. #119
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,910
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    It is literally impossible from the sheer size of the visible universe alone and with the chemical makeup of the majority of that matter we see being the building blocks for life as we personally know it, it is impossible life did not happen elsewhere.
    This is unreasonable. We have literally no understanding of the requirements for life to emerge, let alone intelligent, advanced life. You cannot begin to make a claim like this unless you can quantify the factors, and they're not just unquantifiable, they're unknown.


  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is unreasonable. We have literally no understanding of the requirements for life to emerge, let alone intelligent, advanced life. You cannot begin to make a claim like this unless you can quantify the factors, and they're not just unquantifiable, they're unknown.
    If anyone thinks with how unfathomably large the universe is that there is no other life is fooling themselves or they are deeply religious lol.
    Lead Game Designer

    YouTube Channel

    https://www.youtube.com/@Nateanderthal

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •