Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

[Teriz]

Then where is the new class?

Absent due to a focus on more customization options for existing classes.

Which is pretty much in line with what Class skins would be, more customization options across the board.

That isn’t what Blizzard said though. According to Blizzard there isn’t a new class because none fit the theme of the expansion.

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You specifically mentioned Helix and Gelbin. And as I pointed out, those are notable, VIP NPCs. You don't see priests wielding swords and wearing plate mail outside of Anduin. You don't see priests wielding bow or casting moon-based arcane magic.

You were talking about Goblin technology misfiring and being haphazard. I brought up Blackfuse (and frankly the entire Blackfuse co) to show that that isn’t always the case.

Fine. Then you hold even the lore inconsistencies as canon, I assume?

Inconsistencies are to be expected when you have multiple writers writing a story.

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If a DK and an necromancer are similar enough to not implement the missing class, then tinker are just the same to engineers. No amount of childish denial can change that.
I dare say that in most sane minds tinkers and engineers are even more close then DKs and Necromancers. Not yours of course.

Again, you do understand that there’s a big difference between a class and a profession right?

A DK and a Necromancer would compete with one another as classes. Tinker class would never compete with engineering because classes do things fundamentally different, and a player can be a class and a profession at the same time.

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class skins are a stupid idea.

I agree....

[ymirsson]

That isn’t what Blizzard said though. According to Blizzard there isn’t a new class because none fit the theme of the expansion.

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You were talking about Goblin technology misfiring and being haphazard. I brought up Blackfuse (and frankly the entire Blackfuse co) to show that that isn’t always the case.




Inconsistencies are to be expected when you have multiple writers writing a story.

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Again, you do understand that there’s a big difference between a class and a profession right?

A DK and a Necromancer would compete with one another as classes. Tinker class would never compete with engineering because classes do things fundamentally different, and a player can be a class and a profession at the same time..

Im not talking about your inane nonsense, i am talking about design and perception. Things you dont seem able to grasp.

[Dancaris]

One problem with tinkers with engineering profession will be or mandatory or compete with each other

[Triceron]

That isn’t what Blizzard said though. According to Blizzard there isn’t a new class because none fit the theme of the expansion.

https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...ll-human-dwarf

"The Shadowlands is one of the most mysterious settings we’ve ever seen for a World of Warcraft expansion. So the idea that players don’t really know enough about the Shadowlands to glean a new class out of the experience isn’t the wildest idea, although it’s possible that what players learn in Shadowlands could lead to a new class in future expansions."

Hmm, I wonder what Tinker stuff we'll learn about in Shadowlands that could lead to a new class in future expansions.

[Hammerfest]

I've been waiting for a Tinkerer hero class for over a decade. The certainly have the prep for it now in-game. I could totally see Gnomes, Goblins, Mecha-Gnomes and Vulpera (since they are scavengers) as fitting in with that class at first and then the class being opened up even later to races like human and orc.

[Teriz]

https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...ll-human-dwarf

"The Shadowlands is one of the most mysterious settings we’ve ever seen for a World of Warcraft expansion. So the idea that players don’t really know enough about the Shadowlands to glean a new class out of the experience isn’t the wildest idea, although it’s possible that what players learn in Shadowlands could lead to a new class in future expansions."

Hmm, I wonder what Tinker stuff we'll learn about in Shadowlands that could lead to a new class in future expansions.

Did you miss this quote from the same interview?

“I’ll also add that when we’re making those choices for classes and races and things like that, a lot of it’s informed by setting and story,” said Kubit. And looking at the setting of the Shadowlands, there wasn’t a class that jumped out like the Demon Hunter did in the past with Legion for example. So a lot of our focus is more on building the world of the Shadowlands.”

[Ielenia]

You were talking about Goblin technology misfiring and being haphazard. I brought up Blackfuse (and frankly the entire Blackfuse co) to show that that isn’t always the case.

But those are but one example. We have other examples of technology failing, and on top of that, we don't have a single lore bit saying that the goblins became smarter to stop making their inventions less prone to malfunctions.

Inconsistencies are to be expected when you have multiple writers writing a story.

Except it's not "writer". It's graphics. The same "graphics" that put a Goblin Tinker model on Gazlowe is putting draenei structures for ogres.

[Triceron]

Did you miss this quote from the same interview?

Nope, because they're right. Nothing does jump out for Shadowlands because they're establishing its themes and what it is.

But that means it also informs us of what potential new classes we get in the future. Kinda like how Demon Hunter was established as far back as TBC. The ones we have today wouldn't exist without the Illidari that were introduced in TBC. We didn't know Blood Elves would ever be trained as Demon Hunters anytime before that.

[Teriz]

But those are but one example. We have other examples of technology failing, and on top of that, we don't have a single lore bit saying that the goblins became smarter to stop making their inventions less prone to malfunctions.

Well it’s a pretty large example, because that tech went on to power the Iron Horde, and I don’t recall their tech misfiring much either.

Except it's not "writer". It's graphics. The same "graphics" that put a Goblin Tinker model on Gazlowe is putting draenei structures for ogres.

In the case of Gazlowe, that is a writer, because a Blizzard writer decided at some point that Gazlowe was a Tinker.

Ogre structures for Draenei? You’re going to have to ask Blizzard about that one.

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Nope, because they're right. Nothing does jump out for Shadowlands because they're establishing its themes and what it is.

But that means it also informs us of what potential new classes we get in the future. Kinda like how Demon Hunter was established as far back as TBC. The ones we have today wouldn't exist without the Illidari that were introduced in TBC. We didn't know Blood Elves would ever be trained as Demon Hunters anytime before that.

But then there’s Monkss whose Pandaren origins were last seen in WC3 and were absent in WoW and only mentioned in quests.

Sounds familiar...

[Krothar]

For me its because people have been going on about Tinkers since WoTLK and it gets really, really dull seeing the same threads about them. Really, really don't need to see your mid afternoon class concept that is just a rewrite of what someone else said on Reddit last year.

At this point I'd genuinely prefer to see Dragonsworn in the game and honestly thats an even worse idea than Tinker.

[Triceron]

But then there’s Monkss whose Pandaren origins were last seen in WC3 and were absent in WoW and only mentioned in quests.

We already had Monks in WoW before Pandaria.

https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pet...pandaren-monk/

[qwerty123456]

Well, can you think of an ability in the class lineup that is a reskin of Pocket Factory?

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

Please link to that exchange. I have a feeling that you're misinterpreting what was discussed.

First off why do you assume Pocket Factory is 100% needed when you have been so willing to have a Tinker without a claw pack, turned into a ghost buster, and mangled beyond recognition with Titan tech and other insane things? What makes Pocket Factory the one skill you are so unwilling to lose/change?

Second if Pocket Factory had to exist as a skinned skill it could easily end up being a flying fortress skin of Starfall with the clockwerk goblins falling from the sky exploding or as one of numerous aoe, cone damage skills. And since I know you are going to claim that isn't remotely the same even though its a thousand times closer than your dismissiveness of my possession idea I want to remind you that many of the Warcraft 3 hero skills either changed names, looks, the way they work, etc for wow so why would pocket factory be any different:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml
Breath of Fire- Mostly the same except for cds and stuff
Drunken Haze renamed Keg Smash and no longer can cause then to miss attacks.
Drunken Brawler (Passive) - morphed into Elusive brawler with several differences like blackout strike effecting elusive brawler.
Storm, Earth, And Fire (Ultimate)- kept the name of the spell and splitting into three otherwise completely different skill.
Note: When this spell is activated, the Pandaren Brewmaster is temporarily removed from the game, and this also includes the items in his inventory.

This splits the Pandaren into three separate units with their own special abilities: Storm, Earth, and Fire. Storm is the most useful of the three with good micro skills, as he has Cyclone, Wind Walk and Dispel Magic. Use Cyclone against dangerous ground units or Heroes, and Wind Walk to quickly move him out of harms way if he gets targeted.

Earth and Fire are melee brawlers with impressive health and damage. Earth is a mix of a Mountain Giant and Tauren, combining massive health with the ability to deal AoE damage and forcing enemy units to attack him. Fire is simply an Infernal, dealing massive damage coupled with a passive Immolation aura.

Regardless, all three elements come with Resistant Skin. Earth has Spell Immunity. This makes the elements nearly impossible to focus down because they can only be killed by raw damage, and the three elements have 1,200, 1,700 and 1,100 health respectively, giving the Pandaren Brewmaster an effective health of 4,000 while the spell is active. If all three are somehow killed before the timer expires, then the Pandaren Brewmaster will die and need to be revived again. However, this should be unlikely given the spell's short duration of 45 seconds and each element's massive health pool.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...thknight.shtml

Death Coil
A coil of death that can damage an enemy living unit or heal a friendly undead unit. - In wow does damage and reduces cd on dark trans. No heal.

Death Pact
Kills a target friendly unit, giving a percentage of its hit points to the Death Knight. - In wow its now a talent and does not kill a friendly unit not even unholy pets.

Unholy Aura
Increases the movement speed and life regeneration rate of nearby friendly units. - Doesn't even exist in wow atm.

Animate Dead (Ultimate)
Raises 6 dead units in an area to fight for the Death Knight. Animated units are invulnerable. Army of the Dead is its replacement.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml


Mana Burn
Sends a bolt of negative energy that burns a target enemy unit's mana. Burned mana combusts, dealing damage to the target equal to the amount of mana burned.
Demon Hunters don't have the skill.
Immolation
Engulfs the Demon Hunter in flames, causing damage to nearby enemy land units. Drains mana until deactivated. Renamed Immolation Aura and doesn't drain mana or visually show a massive orange flame around the user. Shows tiny felgreen flames instead.

Evasion (Passive)
Gives the Demon Hunter a chance to avoid attacks. Doesn't exist in WoW.

Metamorphosis (Ultimate)
Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (60 range) and 500 bonus hit points. Visually looks similar for one spec not the other.

[Swnem]

One problem with tinkers with engineering profession will be or mandatory or compete with each other

Huh? Why? The only useful things engineering does are gliders and rocket boosts.
Imo, engineering should be removed if they make a Tinker class. It really already is a mostly useless profession that doesn't deliver enough on it's theme precisely cause it is a profession. It was a mistake to make it, imo.

My solution: fold engineering into blacksmithing and remove it. Give existing engineers equivalent levels in blacksmithing.

[Teriz]

We already had Monks in WoW before Pandaria.

https://www.warcraftpets.com/wow-pet...pandaren-monk/

And we had Gazlowe and Skaggit with HotS Tinker abilities in Island Expeditions.

[kaminaris]

Death Knights were inspired and influenced by Necromancer and Runemaster design, but they aren't representing the Necromancer identity.

Don't be so ignorant, we have Necromancers in the game right now that aren't Death Knights

Of couse they are, deathknight are using necromancy magic. By they way there is no unified "necromancer identity".

[Triceron]

Of couse they are, deathknight are using necromancy magic. By they way there is no unified "necromancer identity".

They were a unit in WC3, and have an entire wing in Naxxramas with representatives through Noth the Plaguebringer, Heigan the Unclean and Gothik the Harvester.

There is very much a unified Necromancer identity. The Cult of the Damned is the most common unified Necromancer faction in lore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Necromancer
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Cult_of_the_Damned

"After the events of the War against the Lich King, the Cult of the Damned is now independent of the Bolvar-controlled Scourge.[14]

The Cult is still active in the Plaguelands, attempting to spread the plague and creating new undead horrors."

Heck, even the latest Hearthstone expansion is all about Scholomance and has Necromancer Kel'thuzad as the headmaster.

Know your lore, Kaminaris.

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And we had Gazlowe and Skaggit with HotS Tinker abilities in Island Expeditions.

Who are Engineers, yes.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gazlowe%27s_Greasemonkeys

Character classes - Engineer

[Teriz]

First off why do you assume Pocket Factory is 100% needed when you have been so willing to have a Tinker without a claw pack, turned into a ghost buster, and mangled beyond recognition with Titan tech and other insane things? What makes Pocket Factory the one skill you are so unwilling to lose/change?

Because expansion classses have gotten all of their WC3 abilities either translated directly or indirectly.

Second if Pocket Factory had to exist as a skinned skill it could easily end up being a flying fortress skin of Starfall with the clockwerk goblins falling from the sky exploding or as one of numerous aoe, cone damage skills. And since I know you are going to claim that isn't remotely the same even though its a thousand times closer than your dismissiveness of my possession idea I want to remind you that many of the Warcraft 3 hero skills either changed names, looks, the way they work, etc for wow so why would pocket factory be any different:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml
Breath of Fire- Mostly the same except for cds and stuff
Drunken Haze renamed Keg Smash and no longer can cause then to miss attacks.
Drunken Brawler (Passive) - morphed into Elusive brawler with several differences like blackout strike effecting elusive brawler.
Storm, Earth, And Fire (Ultimate)- kept the name of the spell and splitting into three otherwise completely different skill.
Note: When this spell is activated, the Pandaren Brewmaster is temporarily removed from the game, and this also includes the items in his inventory.

This splits the Pandaren into three separate units with their own special abilities: Storm, Earth, and Fire. Storm is the most useful of the three with good micro skills, as he has Cyclone, Wind Walk and Dispel Magic. Use Cyclone against dangerous ground units or Heroes, and Wind Walk to quickly move him out of harms way if he gets targeted.

Earth and Fire are melee brawlers with impressive health and damage. Earth is a mix of a Mountain Giant and Tauren, combining massive health with the ability to deal AoE damage and forcing enemy units to attack him. Fire is simply an Infernal, dealing massive damage coupled with a passive Immolation aura.

Regardless, all three elements come with Resistant Skin. Earth has Spell Immunity. This makes the elements nearly impossible to focus down because they can only be killed by raw damage, and the three elements have 1,200, 1,700 and 1,100 health respectively, giving the Pandaren Brewmaster an effective health of 4,000 while the spell is active. If all three are somehow killed before the timer expires, then the Pandaren Brewmaster will die and need to be revived again. However, this should be unlikely given the spell's short duration of 45 seconds and each element's massive health pool.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...thknight.shtml

Death Coil
A coil of death that can damage an enemy living unit or heal a friendly undead unit. - In wow does damage and reduces cd on dark trans. No heal.

Death Pact
Kills a target friendly unit, giving a percentage of its hit points to the Death Knight. - In wow its now a talent and does not kill a friendly unit not even unholy pets.

Unholy Aura
Increases the movement speed and life regeneration rate of nearby friendly units. - Doesn't even exist in wow atm.

Animate Dead (Ultimate)
Raises 6 dead units in an area to fight for the Death Knight. Animated units are invulnerable. Army of the Dead is its replacement.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml

You should view these abilities as they were when they were first introduced into WoW. The results will surprise you.

Mana Burn
Sends a bolt of negative energy that burns a target enemy unit's mana. Burned mana combusts, dealing damage to the target equal to the amount of mana burned.
Demon Hunters don't have the skill.
Immolation
Engulfs the Demon Hunter in flames, causing damage to nearby enemy land units. Drains mana until deactivated. Renamed Immolation Aura and doesn't drain mana or visually show a massive orange flame around the user. Shows tiny felgreen flames instead.

Evasion (Passive)
Gives the Demon Hunter a chance to avoid attacks. Doesn't exist in WoW.

Metamorphosis (Ultimate)
Transforms the Demon Hunter into a powerful demon with a ranged attack (60 range) and 500 bonus hit points. Visually looks similar for one spec not the other.

The Demon Hunter is a unique case because it’s abilities were already handed out to other classes before it was introduced. Thus it’s abilities were heavily altered, whereas the DH’s abilities were more faithful in Priest, Warlock, and Rogue classes.

Here’s the point; when the WC3 abilities first enter WoW, they’re quite faithful to their RTS roots.

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Who are Engineers, yes.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gazlowe%27s_Greasemonkeys

Character classes - Engineer

Which means nothing because Tinkers are engineers.

[Triceron]

Which means nothing because Tinkers are engineers.

Yes, it means nothing. We already have Engineers in the game.

Tinkers don't formally exist in WoW lore as their own entity, so far it's all just another name for Engineer like Fighter and Thief are other names for Warriors and Rogues.

All we have right now are Engineer NPCs using abilities that aren't in any class or in the Engineering profession, all while Gazlowes Shredder appears as an Engineering Mount.

[qwerty123456]

Because expansion classses have gotten all of their WC3 abilities either translated directly or indirectly.



You should view these abilities as they were when they were first introduced into WoW. The results will surprise you.



The Demon Hunter is a unique case because it’s abilities were already handed out to other classes before it was introduced. Thus it’s abilities were heavily altered, whereas the DH’s abilities were more faithful in Priest, Warlock, and Rogue classes.

Here’s the point; when the WC3 abilities first enter WoW, they’re quite faithful to their RTS roots.

- - - Updated - - -



Which means nothing because Tinkers are engineers.

The results would surprise me? Why don't you actually link evidence. Oh wait you can't because the fact of the matter is no class had all its abilities directly translated from warcraft 3. And even if they had all been brought over, the visuals of many of them are different than they are in warcraft 3 like the shadowy demon hunter form or immolation so even if they added a pocket factory skill (maybe even turning it into a passive) it does not mean it would need to look exactly the same.

And even if they did exist in wow once they no longer do. Showing its not a requirement to 1 for 1 the abilities of the warcraft 3 heroes.

If you continue to troll and lie without producing evidence I'm going to start reporting you because you are clearly just baiting people.

[Teriz]

Yes, it means nothing. We already have Engineers in the game.

Which is semantics, because not all engineers are Tinkers.

Tinkers don't formally exist in WoW lore as their own entity, so far it's all just another name for Engineer like Fighter and Thief are other names for Warriors and Rogues.

All we have right now are Engineer NPCs using abilities that aren't in any class or in the Engineering profession, all while Gazlowes Shredder appears as an Engineering Mount.

Actually that’s false. Since the Tinker is canon due to reforged, then they’re also canon in WoW due to WoW being a direct sequel to WC3. Also the Tinker is mentioned in quests.