Should my specific personality even bother trying Mythic plus?

[VinceVega]

So, you can look at my post history and see that I strongly advocate that tackling mythic plus with a full group of strangers is wholly and completely not intended, at least as I as an admitted outsider observe the mode and its design intent. The fact that the whole mode is put behind premade groups says to me that Blizzard is assuming that if you have ambitions here, you have a group that ideally lets friendship or a shared goal smooth the bumps of sketchy class balance and a volatile meta. For the last two expansions I've basically stopped being a "dungeon guy" in favor of taking my army of tank alts into the open world for much fun and profit, but before that I was "the guild tank" for an extremely casual RL friends guild that didn't raid but ran dungeons religiously in WOTLK. My roots and PVE instincts go deep in the etiquette of older dungeon runs: the tank leads, the healer determines the pace, and the DPS let those two do those things.

...But I'm not blind to a new... I guess lack of respect for 5-man content below the mythic level. DPS PUGs (we can assemble 3 people at the most these days, so there are always PUGs) running ahead and pulling, the argument of "you're not the bossa me" when all I'm trying to do is prevent wipes, and the whip-cracking to go faster because "it's just a heroic." These have all pushed me out of 5-man trinity content just around the same time world quests conveniently came into place to replace dungeons completely for me. When we run our timewalking (the only dungeons we run regularly any more) we queue with three so we can't be kicked, and so we can prune the toxic, but really... should we have to do that to have a chill time in a dungeon that people are taking seriously? Is it so hard to respect the content regardless of level?

...Or should we be upping the ante to find that respect?

I could, in theory, likely assemble our usual dungeon running group of three (myself tanking, my best friend an adamant healer, and a fellow altoholic who mains a warlock) to try Mythic plus, filling in the spaces with DPS PUGs with reasonable criteria to join a chill dungeon run. I could... but I guess I'm asking if we're still going to run into as many pulling DPS or "LOL it's just X level key" mindsets? Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks? I realize that any implied threat to kick likely rings hollow in a M+ because there is a timer, and "leaving" is bad, so... is the key itself enough to get a little bit of "relax and let me pull in a way that isn't going to wipe us" and have that be respected?

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies.

Well if you want to take it slow go with friends or make a PuG with exactly THAT in the description.

If i run a dungeon for the 20000 time i don't want to sit around and wait for ages because one person just "wants to take it slow".

The difficulty of Mythic plus comes from the timer. Getting through is not hard with infinite time. I (for example) ONLY do mythic+ because i want to push my Raider.io and the challenge is fun. If i run heroic i ONLY do that to get the inital gear for harder stuff. An in LFD in will never see the people i play with again so just power through it and be done with it.

I don't go into mythic+ and say it is just a 5 man. I go in and say i want to finish it the best way possible so i can get to harder stuff i can tackle

[Eazy]

What worst can happen? You will be called noob, they would say that they fucked your mom and you will lose 20-30 min?

Chill, it's just a game.

[VinceVega]

You are overthinking the supposed "consequences" of playing the game and you blow everything out of proportion. So let us say you enter with a group of strangers and also they are bad and toxic. No big deal. Worst thing that can happen is you just lost 10-20 min of your game time.

WoW is a terrible community regarding the amount of anxiety surrounding common things like get in a fucking dungeon and finish it. People tend to overthink all kinds of shit "what will others think of my healing/dps/etc".

Its just a dungeon its nothing important. Its loot is not important even the weekly chest is the only thing to care about and you get this regardless of whether you played like a pro or like a noone or semi-afk or got carried.

You even try to control "not being kicked" which is in the first place suspicious. Just play man.

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Its not even untrue if someone is playing with their dad :P

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Regardless of what you call it, it is actually JUST a five man and regardless of how higher over +15 you go its pretty damn pointless even for bragging rights as noone really gives a fuck.

Of yourse it is 5man. It is just not "just five man" as mythic raids are not "just 25 man".
I go over 15 because it is fun fuck me right?

[Wuusah]

This thread is a whole lot of selfmade problems that could be fixed by OP “just doing it”...

[Bloodyleech]

Goods points by some that added that the OP may be the one that is to toxic - and I don't mean saying bad stuff. Toxic in a way that is bad for other people, like taking to much of their time (you go in there with 4 other humans, some of them may not have much time to play at all). If you have the need to go into heros/timewalking with 3 people, so that you can't get kicked, there is a complete different problem here.
I'm someone that calls people out for doing very stupid stuff (not newbie stuff!) or playing absolutely bad (like doing 10k dps with 440) and even then I only got kicked maybe twice in a WHOLE expansion. If you get kicked more often than me, then the fault is on you.

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but.. there are always 2 sides of the same coin.

[Twdft]

I was "the guild tank" for an extremely casual RL friends guild that didn't raid but ran dungeons religiously in WOTLK

Dungeons in wotlk were very easy, if you were not called out then to waste time by strangers you'll be fine in mythic+.

One of the reasons DD pull ahead in heroic dungeons is that they don't actually need a tank. You outgear the place the very second your ilvl is high enough to even queue, add to that people have donethe dungeons a million times already. Noone is taking it slow in heroics.

Mythic+ is a bit harder and DD in low m+ who are there for loot will actually die without a tank. So they probably won't as much pull ahead as tell you in no uncertain words to speed the fuck up if you take your sweet time. Mythic+ has a timer, the whole point of it is to beat the timer so you can go a higher m+. Dungeons are two years old, so it is to be expected that you at least know the general route through them.

Dungeon brwoser has a description field, be as specific as possible with "new players learning dungeons" etc. Most toxicity in dungeons comes from people not being on the same page. The basic expectation is to time m+, be upfront about it if you want to chill out so only like minded players join.

In general though: make friends. I believe you deliberately have to avoid social contact in WoW to not meet people. Last Alt I leveled was a mechagnome, I chose some backwater realm to do it in peace and only apllied to a guild for the shorter hearthstone cd. My criteria where to apply was I saw a dude and liked his guild name. Fast forward two weeks, I was doing mythic+ with them on another Alt when some of their team wouldn't show up for mythic+ night. Hell, back in Cataclysm I was fishing for the turtle mount and got hired by a guild for the guild achievement fish 10k or something. They chatted with me a couple times probably to check if I was fish botting or not. Everyone was friendly enough and that lead to me getting Gurthalak heroic on a hunter.

As in real life, talk to people to make friends. It's not that hard.

[goldlock]

Right, but I'd be new on someone else's time and apparently that's even more of a grave sin in M+ than it is everywhere else haha!

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This does seem to be the prevailing best advice that I'll admit I'm so ignorant to M+ I hadn't even considered. The ownership of the key I mean.

You don't really belong in mythic+ or any group of strangers to be honest. You are going into a difficulty level where everyone expects you to know what your doing for the most part with a "but I wanna SEE IT LIKE THIS" mentality.

People place value on their time and if they are trying to push keys they don't want someone sniffing roses while they are moving purposefully at neck break speeds.

[Omedon]

You don't really belong in mythic+ or any group of strangers to be honest. You are going into a difficulty level where everyone expects you to know what your doing for the most part with a "but I wanna SEE IT LIKE THIS" mentality.

People place value on their time and if they are trying to push keys they don't want someone sniffing roses while they are moving purposefully at neck break speeds.

I’ll be honest, my interest has deflated over the course of this thread, and this discussion has become more thought experiment than earnest inquiry at this point. What I keep coming back to though is this idea that being “new” is bad. It’s always been there in WoW, everyone looks to make sure it’s not the tank saying “first time here” even in queued dungeons, and groans if it is. I still contend therefore that between this heightened sense of “don’t be new on other people’s time” plus the utterly ridiculous “don’t you dare leave” social compact only reinforces that this is not a feature for full groups of strangers. It’s possible, sure, but it just breeds all this flat out wickedly toxic environment.

Perhaps I will join a community if SL’s dungeons are more interesting than BFAs, but honestly, I don’t know how anyone new or simply curious approaches this mode, particularly as a “pressure role” (tank/healer).

I still may give this a shot with a heavily disclamatory description and my own key, but the picture painted by the “worst cases” in this thread has not been encouraging. I did ask for honesty, and I appreciate that I got it, but there’s no way my reasonable consideration is some kind of mad overthinking next to the ridiculously demanding and mercenary social compact of the community that’s formed around this specific mode. I may need to loosen up my thinking a bit, but many of you need to calm down about this, in my not so humble opinion.

[Belloc]

I get that it probably looks that way, but part of that "old school dungeon etiquette" comes with a keen sense of "you're on other people's time, don't waste it." So yeah, Imma overthink it a bit before I step into where everyone is playing their super serious progression game, a bit.

If you're worried about wasting other peoples' time, then start low. +2, +5, +7... all great M+ levels to learn the mechanics. Start low, build yourself up, and you won't be wasting anyone's time.

[Wuusah]

What I keep coming back to though is this idea that being “new” is bad

Except it isn’t. Being new is not bad. Nobody cares how new you are in the appropriate difficulty level. Just don’t be new in a +10. Stay low and work your way up. How do you think everyone else got experience? You just gotta play those dungeons. Over and over again and slowly ramp up the key levels. Absolutely nobody gives a damn about how good or bad you are in a +2.

[goldlock]

I’ll be honest, my interest has deflated over the course of this thread, and this discussion has become more thought experiment than earnest inquiry at this point. What I keep coming back to though is this idea that being “new” is bad. It’s always been there in WoW, everyone looks to make sure it’s not the tank saying “first time here” even in queued dungeons, and groans if it is. I still contend therefore that between this heightened sense of “don’t be new on other people’s time” plus the utterly ridiculous “don’t you dare leave” social compact only reinforces that this is not a feature for full groups of strangers. It’s possible, sure, but it just breeds all this flat out wickedly toxic environment.

Perhaps I will join a community if SL’s dungeons are more interesting than BFAs, but honestly, I don’t know how anyone new or simply curious approaches this mode, particularly as a “pressure role” (tank/healer).

I still may give this a shot with a heavily disclamatory description and my own key, but the picture painted by the “worst cases” in this thread has not been encouraging. I did ask for honesty, and I appreciate that I got it, but there’s no way my reasonable consideration is some kind of mad overthinking next to the ridiculously demanding and mercenary social compact of the community that’s formed around this specific mode. I may need to loosen up my thinking a bit, but many of you need to calm down about this, in my not so humble opinion.

It is more the concept of not being dumb about being new... A timed mythic + over ten where people are clearly trying to push (Might be a +7 if loot caps at 10 for the start of a expac) isn't the place to dick around on other people's time just as a mythic raid shouldn't be your first raid.

WoW has training grounds in low mythic + and heroic /normal raiding. Sweat in the training grounds bleed on the battlefield but don't confuse one for the other.

[LorDC]

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

The whole point of M+ is doing it as fast as possible on a highest possible level. That's an absolute antithesis of doing it "chill" way. So, no surprise, it attracts people who want to do everything as fast as possible. If you want to do it your way, make your own group and state it in the requirements.

[Omedon]

It is more the concept of not being dumb about being new... A timed mythic + over ten where people are clearly trying to push (Might be a +7 if loot caps at 10 for the start of a expac) isn't the place to dick around on other people's time just as a mythic raid shouldn't be your first raid.

WoW has training grounds in low mythic + and heroic /normal raiding. Sweat in the training grounds bleed on the battlefield but don't confuse one for the other.

This is a fair assessment. To be clear I think I could have been more transparent about realizing I couldn’t start at +10, as I’ve always assumed I’d climb the feature naturally. Perhaps the issue is I say “mythic plus” and some hear me muscling in on their high keys with my carebear oldschool impressions of dungeons. The whole “greater rifts in WoW” ideal of just shitblasting dungeons has an appeal and also sounds mildly terrifying at the same time haha!

[Sarethion]

Step 1. Start with lower level keys and list them as "chill runs/learning". Getting 2 extra dps players should be easy.
Step 2. If someone you pugged with is friendly and plays decently well, talk to them and add them to your friends list.
Step 3. There you go - you have a full group of friends that you can run chill M+ with.

Also, bonus tip - I believe there are some friendly M+ communities meant for people who just want to chill out with a friendly group

[goldlock]

This is a fair assessment. To be clear I think I could have been more transparent about realizing I couldn’t start at +10, as I’ve always assumed I’d climb the gesture naturally. Perhaps the issue is I say “mythic plus” and some hear me muscling in on their high keys with my carebear oldschool impressions of dungeons. The whole “greater rifts in WoW” ideal of just shitblasting dungeons has an appeal and also sounds mildly terrifying at the same time haha!

The best way I can describe how you come off ( I could be wrong this is text on the internet after all) reminds me of when I used to play warhammer 40k the table top game.

Every tournament you would get the "new guy" the one who clearly shouldn't be at the level where everything is heavily regulated and even has referrers. Their armies are a mess they are usually extremely ignorant of the rules and just glancing at their army you know they are going to be wiped out in the first round while trying to argue the entire game about made up rules they think exist when they are not flat out making constant illegal moves.

The truly annoying part is that 20 feet away was the beginner tables where everyone was taking it easy having some snacks playing non timed turned and allowing do overs for misplaced unites or mistakes... You know the place where almost everyone but the new guy learned how to play,

It is why I always kind of roll my eyes at threads like these. Usually its people without even a mythic 5 done complaining about how the community wont let them into 15s.

[Arainie]

The whole point of M+ is doing it as fast as possible on a highest possible level. That's an absolute antithesis of doing it "chill" way. So, no surprise, it attracts people who want to do everything as fast as possible. If you want to do it your way, make your own group and state it in the requirements.

I'm not saying that I completely disagree with you, but you're living in a world where people have different opinions. That the whole point of M+ is doing dungeons at a more difficult level is an equally valid opinion, and whether or not you beat the timer can be secondary to the experience and reward (even if diminished with a depleted timer) for many people.

[Mrbleedinggums]

As others stated, just specify in the LFG finder that you're not concerned about making time and just want to have fun. I wouldn't mind higher key dungeons as a Mythic raider myself without the mentality of "omg we gotta get this 20 done asap!"

Lol no, I just want to get my gear to DE without having to worry about tryhards from time to time.

[Beatman]

So, you can look at my post history and see that I strongly advocate that tackling mythic plus with a full group of strangers is wholly and completely not intended, at least as I as an admitted outsider observe the mode and its design intent. The fact that the whole mode is put behind premade groups says to me that Blizzard is assuming that if you have ambitions here, you have a group that ideally lets friendship or a shared goal smooth the bumps of sketchy class balance and a volatile meta. For the last two expansions I've basically stopped being a "dungeon guy" in favor of taking my army of tank alts into the open world for much fun and profit, but before that I was "the guild tank" for an extremely casual RL friends guild that didn't raid but ran dungeons religiously in WOTLK. My roots and PVE instincts go deep in the etiquette of older dungeon runs: the tank leads, the healer determines the pace, and the DPS let those two do those things.

...But I'm not blind to a new... I guess lack of respect for 5-man content below the mythic level. DPS PUGs (we can assemble 3 people at the most these days, so there are always PUGs) running ahead and pulling, the argument of "you're not the bossa me" when all I'm trying to do is prevent wipes, and the whip-cracking to go faster because "it's just a heroic." These have all pushed me out of 5-man trinity content just around the same time world quests conveniently came into place to replace dungeons completely for me. When we run our timewalking (the only dungeons we run regularly any more) we queue with three so we can't be kicked, and so we can prune the toxic, but really... should we have to do that to have a chill time in a dungeon that people are taking seriously? Is it so hard to respect the content regardless of level?

...Or should we be upping the ante to find that respect?

I could, in theory, likely assemble our usual dungeon running group of three (myself tanking, my best friend an adamant healer, and a fellow altoholic who mains a warlock) to try Mythic plus, filling in the spaces with DPS PUGs with reasonable criteria to join a chill dungeon run. I could... but I guess I'm asking if we're still going to run into as many pulling DPS or "LOL it's just X level key" mindsets? Am I more likely to find the old school respect for 5-man content if it's on a key, or just more whip-cracking as I line up LOS pulls and other old tank tricks? I realize that any implied threat to kick likely rings hollow in a M+ because there is a timer, and "leaving" is bad, so... is the key itself enough to get a little bit of "relax and let me pull in a way that isn't going to wipe us" and have that be respected?

Can chill people bring a majority into M+ and keep it chill, or is the culture of "it's just a 5-man" pervasive throughout? I'm not really super tempted just because there are mounts on the line now, it's more... I guess I just wonder if I'm missing out on a good time.

Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies.

Dude, you sound like my grandpa trying to get a smartphone working.

M+ will always be a different environment that normal dungeons, because m+ has a timer. You are expected to go into m+ with a somewhat competitive mindset.

Also, if DPS start pulling it's a sign that you are simply too slow and people are beginning to grow impatient. I main DPS, but occasionally tank up to 15+ keys. This isn't Classic or BC. Your purpose as a tank isn't just to make the run safe, but also time-efficient. You have to pull in such a way that the DPS and heals can use and rotate their cooldowns efficiently.

I suggest you try to change your mindset a little bit and start thinking about why people are being "toxic" or start pulling mobs. If you are too stubborn to change your ways, you won't get around a 5-man premade group.

[LorDC]

I'm not saying that I completely disagree with you, but you're living in a world where people have different opinions. That the whole point of M+ is doing dungeons at a more difficult level is an equally valid opinion, and whether or not you beat the timer can be secondary to the experience and reward (even if diminished with a depleted timer) for many people.

Ok, I'll reformulate:
The whole Mythic+ experience is structured in such a way as to reward doing it as fast as possible on a highest possible level. Subjective experience may differ of course, but objective in-game rewards are there and first and foremost attract people who want to do it fast. Which, since M+ is a collective effort, in turn leads to general dislike towards "chill" players.

[[Apok]]

I guess my rebuttal to that (and I do thank you for being honest) is how does anyone "break in" to a system like that? How does a new tank or healer... like... learn the ropes if the whole culture is so "don't be new on my time", a problem that already exists even before M+ in WoW?

It all depends on how it's played out.

This whole "old-school respect" for 5 man dungeons is somewhat a bit of a misnomer, even back in the old-school people would gravitate to whatever fir their playstyle and goals best, and clearing content faster and more efficiaently thus resulting in more and faster rewards still held prevalence then.

In the situation you have described in the op, you sound more like a "toxic" player, stacking a group so you can manipulate a dungeon finder group so that you and your buddies can't get kicked, i mean why not up the ante like you said and earn the "respect" of other players if it matters to you that much, playing a tank class isn't a free pass.