SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Aucald]

I am sure there are disagreements over Tolkin Lore...does that mean his writing is shit?

I am pretty neutral on all this, so I take the nuanced answer from Aucald - and I would probably listen to Redshirt Guy

Like the age-old and unending debate as to whether Balrogs have wings? I don't construe all criticism as "bashing," nor do I think criticism alone really diminishes the quality of any work of art in any medium. If nothing else it's something to talk about.

[Syegfryed]

Ermh, neither the in-game cinematics nor the book ever mentions what is behind his "skull" thing on his head.

the ingame cinematics don't mention because that is his skull, literally

The book explicitly states that it is not his skull.

right, thats why i said is either a mistake or a retcon.

Or like Alucard said, he portrayed himself differently.

Genn's tail was mentioned once if I remember correctly. Golden also went to twitter to say they tried to remove every mention of it but they missed one.

right, and this show to us that....? they can make lore mistakes like that

Can you stop forcing your idea of it being a mistake and accept the fact that this is our current canon description of Bwonsamdi?

again, like i said, either a mistake or a retcon

Bwonsamdi is not a troll, never was. Also confirmed in written media.

it literally says in the shadowlands info that he was a mortal troll who became loa with Mueh'zala

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I am sure there are disagreements over Tolkin Lore...does that mean his writing is shit?

Tolkien have kinda free pass because he died before finishing up his shit, and his family published his things.

Like how he was not able to finish how the Orcs came to me, and there is like 5 stories about it and ironically the most common is prob not the right one.

[Skytotem]

I'm curious that Vol'jin names *Ashamane* along with Hir'eek and Shadra.

Hir'eek and Shadra were loa that Vol'jin worked with but he's never had a connection to Ashamane before.

[Nerovar]

Meh, I see people here fighting over the lore for almost 500 posts...and this is just this one thread. All these posters pretending they understand the lore, yet they cannot agree? How so if the lore is obviously so clear? And now we are even fighting about the size of Sargeras and if pictures of him actually means what the picture shows^^

So I take people criticising wether or not Blizzard knows their own lore with a grain of salt.

Any of the guys here who think they know the lore? I they would start writing stories for Blizzard, they would have this forum take a huge dump on it...just like they do it now on the current writing team.

I mean, we have retcons that simply make no sense. Let's take for example the Kul Tiras Holy Light retcon. This would have never made any sense in previous Warcraft stories. The emissary from Kul Tiras that tried to lure Thrall into an ambush in WC3 was a priest, they had Paladins in their army, the grand admiral of the Scarlet Crusade Barean Westwind was also a Tirassian (this used to be the correct way of describing someone from Kul Tiras), Daelin was present at Arthas' anointment as a Paladin in the Cathedral of Stormwind and he was one of the judges that decided on Tirion Fordring's excommunication. Furthermore, being a heathen used to be a pretty big no-go because (big surprise) faith used to be a pretty big thing since Warcraft was a medieval fantasy setting.
It was also outright stated that they adhered to the faith in the Holy Light in the now de-canonized RPG books.
Another tidbit from the Arthas novel:

“And we humbly request the Light’s blessing on Lady Jaina Proudmoore. May she be blessed
with its healing and wisdom, that she—”
Aha! The mystery girl was a mystery no longer. Jaina Proudmoore, a year younger than he,
daughter to Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, naval war hero and ruler of Kul Tiras. What did
intrigue him was why she was here and—
“—and that her studies at Dalaran go well. We ask that she become a representative of the Light,
and that in the role of a mage, she will serve her people well and truly.”

So basically every named Tirassian in the lore used to be connected to the Light in one way or the other (until BfA).

Then there's of course all the other dumb stuff like Blizzard's newest pet author proclaiming that you can see Stormwind from Lakeshire in Redridge which isn't even possible in the game where the distances are much smaller than in the actual lore.

[Sangris]

"A bony, skull-shaped growth covered most of his face, though his permanently smug smile remained unfettered."
"He floated closer, and Talanji could see him batting his lashes like a fool behind his skull-like brow."
"Bwonsamdi grinned, a twinkle in his eyes behind the mask-like bone around his orbits."

And this is only from the first time he shows up in the book. I cannot be bothered to look up the rest of the times his face is mentioned.

Point stands, it's not his skull. Case closed.

Yeah, no. It clearly says it's a growth. Masks don't grow out of people. Also, it says mask-like. So it is bone like a mask. If it was an actual mask, they would just talk about his bone mask.

Sorry, your case holds no substance based on that paragraph, and in fact, it actually suggests the opposite.

[Houle]

Yeah, no. It clearly says it's a growth. Masks don't grow out of people. Also, it says mask-like. So it is bone like a mask. If it was an actual mask, they would just talk about his bone mask.

Sorry, your case holds no substance based on that paragraph, and in fact, it actually suggests the opposite.

True. I dont know why he thinks that any of these descriptions further his point. If anything, every single sentence there proves its not a mask, as its specifically called a "growth" and only "mask-like".

About Hakkar having a "pod" in Ardenwald: doesnt have to mean anything. He definitely isnt a normal wild god/loa, as nothing of his origin is known (unlike all the other wild gods/loas).
Could be that he tricked the Winter Queen into creating a pod for him, could be that he created a pod himself, could be that the Winter Queen only THINKS he is a wild god and therefore made one for him.
All we (and the titans, bc they wrote chronicles) know about him is that he was summoned from some unknown place in the ancient days of the trolls, that he is the "darkest" loa there is, and that he was only defeated bc he consumed his own blood curse/poison in the fight against him.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Yeah, no. It clearly says it's a growth. Masks don't grow out of people. Also, it says mask-like. So it is bone like a mask. If it was an actual mask, they would just talk about his bone mask.

Sorry, your case holds no substance based on that paragraph, and in fact, it actually suggests the opposite.

Soo, his skull is growing out of his face?

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True. I dont know why he thinks that any of these descriptions further his point. If anything, every single sentence there proves its not a mask, as its specifically called a "growth" and only "mask-like".

About Hakkar having a "pod" in Ardenwald: doesnt have to mean anything. He definitely isnt a normal wild god/loa, as nothing of his origin is known (unlike all the other wild gods/loas).
Could be that he tricked the Winter Queen into creating a pod for him, could be that he created a pod himself, could be that the Winter Queen only THINKS he is a wild god and therefore made one for him.
All we (and the titans, bc they wrote chronicles) know about him is that he was summoned from some unknown place in the ancient days of the trolls, that he is the "darkest" loa there is, and that he was only defeated bc he consumed his own blood curse/poison in the fight against him.

Does Mueh'zala know he exists? He could've made him

[Sangris]

Soo, his skull is growing out of his face?

The quoted paragraph at least proves it is anything but a mask, as it has been described as mask-like. It definitely wouldn't describe a mask-like mask..

[Garymorilix]

right, and this show to us that....? they can make lore mistakes like that

The only thing you didn't reply to is that Bwonsamdi's face is mentioned many times in the book while Genn's tail was only left in once by accident.

I'm done talking to you.
You just show utter ignorance because you simply don't like what is being laid out in front of you.

Did you read Shadows Rising?

If your answer is no, then shut the fuck up, read it and then come back discussing. Until then you can fuck right off.

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Yeah, no. It clearly says it's a growth. Masks don't grow out of people. Also, it says mask-like. So it is bone like a mask. If it was an actual mask, they would just talk about his bone mask.

Sorry, your case holds no substance based on that paragraph, and in fact, it actually suggests the opposite.

Did you read Shadows Rising?

I took those 3 lines from the very first page where Bwonsamdi appears. The first time in the novel.
He appears many times later and it is described almost every single time.

I'm not gonna waste my time getting every single line for you from the book. Go and read it yourself then come back arguing.

Why you trying to argue against something you ain't even read? Ignorant.

[Nerovar]

Well...guess you are Redshirt Guy

You wanna respond to the content of my comment or are you just here to be sarcastic?

[bagina]

So Void and Light were able to freely invade Shadowlands in the past... I feel like it should be talked about more. Sounds shitty for the dead.

[Sangris]

Did you read Shadows Rising?

I took those 3 lines from the very first page where Bwonsamdi appears. The first time in the novel.
He appears many times later and it is described almost every single time.

I'm not gonna waste my time getting every single line for you from the book. Go and read it yourself then come back arguing.

Why you trying to argue against something you ain't even read? Ignorant.

Stop being so goddamn defensive about this topic. You quoted a passage from the book as "proof", however that paragraph actually proves the exact opposite. Not my problem if you don't know how to read it. And "Go find the evidence for my claim yourself!" is not how making an argument works. The burden of proof is on you in this case, and so far it is lacking.

And calm the fuck down, there's no need to be that hostile towards me or @Syegfryed.

[Nerovar]

Sorry if it came across like sarcasm, but it was supposed to be a positive comment. As in: I was pleased how well versed you are in the lore on this subject and I learned something.

Oh, well. These days I just assume everything on MMOC is sarcasm. Apologies.

[Wangming]

I am sure there are disagreements over Tolkin Lore...does that mean his writing is shit?

I am pretty neutral on all this, so I take the nuanced answer from @Aucald - and I would probably listen to Redshirt Guy

There are disagreements regarding his half finished drafts that were published by his relatives to cash in. But a wow level comparison would be if we questioned wether it was really Sauron who died when the ring was destroyed and not his AU clone, or wether anyone died at all or is just in very deep sleep.

[Aucald]

There are disagreements regarding his half finished drafts that were published by his relatives to cash in. But a wow level comparison would be if we questioned wether it was really Sauron who died when the ring was destroyed and not his AU clone, or wether anyone died at all or is just in very deep sleep.

As a maiar Sauron isn't actually dead. With the destruction of the One Ring, he is described as "... robbed of his physical form, reducing him to a malevolent spirit that hovered above Mordor as a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, terrible yet impotent." Presumably he too will be judged by Námo/Mandos (the Tolkien version of Hades), and probably join his old master Melkor/Morgoth (the Tolkien version of Lucifer) by being cast outside the Door of Night into the Void.

[A Chozo]

Maybe the notes about the Mask are just a perspective thing. I mean, it kinda looks like one, so it may be refereed to as a mask even if it isn't.

[Garymorilix]

Stop being so goddamn defensive about this topic. You quoted a passage from the book as "proof", however that paragraph actually proves the exact opposite. Not my problem if you don't know how to read it. And "Go find the evidence for my claim yourself!" is not how making an argument works. The burden of proof is on you in this case, and so far it is lacking.

And calm the fuck down, there's no need to be that hostile towards me or @Syegfryed.

Okay, it goes both ways. Why the fuck are you so hostile towards the topic?
Finding it hard to accept actual canon, are we?

Here it is, I'll pop the book open for ya, and I quote:

- "It might sound strange comin' from the loa of graves, but there is always hope, ya majesty." Bwonsamdi joined her, his eyes glowing faintly behind his bone mask. -
- "The tall bone harness he wore on his back swayed lightly, the ribs etched into his chest glimmered like stars, streaming blue vapor rising from the slits in his bone mask." -
- "Good." Bwonsamdi passed a shaking hand over his mask. "It should. I have one more thing to say before I go." -

Now go and read a book before you come at people trying to argue its content.
So beyond pretentious.

[Sangris]

Okay, it goes both ways. Why the fuck are you so hostile towards the topic?
Finding it hard to accept actual canon, are we?

Here it is, I'll pop the book open for ya, and I quote:

- "It might sound strange comin' from the loa of graves, but there is always hope, ya majesty." Bwonsamdi joined her, his eyes glowing faintly behind his bone mask. -
- "The tall bone harness he wore on his back swayed lightly, the ribs etched into his chest glimmered like stars, streaming blue vapor rising from the slits in his bone mask." -
- "Good." Bwonsamdi passed a shaking hand over his mask. "It should. I have one more thing to say before I go." -

Now go and read a book before you come at people trying to argue its content.
So beyond pretentious.

Except I was not hostile towards this topic, I said nowhere in the quoted paragraph did it say it was a mask, and it supported it in no way. I also said your "case" had no substance based on your quoted paragraph. The ones you just provided are far more convincing.

And go take a break from these forums. The fact that you feel the need to insult absolutely everyone that's not agreeing with you shows that you need one.

[Garymorilix]

Except I was not hostile towards this topic, I said nowhere in the quoted paragraph did it say it was a mask, and it supported it in no way. I also said your "case" had no substance based on your quoted paragraph. The ones you just provided are far more convincing.

And go take a break from these forums. The fact that you feel the need to insult absolutely everyone that's not agreeing with you shows that you need one.

What "agreeing"?

I stated written facts, not opinions.
I did not dream up what I have been saying all this time. I read the fucking book.

I'd advise you to get off your high horse, read the fucking book and then start joining into discussions where it is mentioned.

In fact, you were the one coming at me first with the "you can't even read thats not what that is".
I know what I read, between the two of us you are the one full of bs.

And the reason why this matters to me is that I am sick and fuckin tired of people trying to argue the lore when they have zero actual knowledge of it.
Your contribution to the discussion is NULL the moment you fail to study the source material. Fact.

[Sangris]

What "agreeing"?

I stated written facts, not opinions.
I did not dream up what I have been saying all this time. I read the fucking book.

I'd advise you to get off your high horse, read the fucking book and then start joining into discussions where it is mentioned.

In fact, you were the one coming at me first with the "you can't even read thats not what that is".
I know what I read, between the two of us you are the one full of bs.

Alright, I admit my wording was a little harsh there, and I apologize for it. However it was provoked because of your extremely aggressive stance and insults that you immediately threw at me.

It doesn't change the fact that in the first quoted paragraph there was nothing proving your point, and I explained in my first response why.