Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Kralljin]

You mean the system the entire game has always functioned on?

Yeah, because previously that happened within a 1-3 month span, right?

Like, if you're bringing that strawman to the table, it's better we stop that argument right here.

[Jester Joe]

Yeah, because previously that happened within a 1-3 month span, right?

Like, if you're bringing that strawman to the table, it's better we stop that argument right here.

That isn't even a strawman.

It's exactly how artifact power has worked since implication.

It's exactly how the legendary questlines worked over time, making the catchup easier.


You're flat out being dishonest if you're trying to say that waiting in WoW hasn't made things easier in general. How you're going to turn a blind eye to systems like artifact power alone and act as if that isn't a thing is beyond me.

[Djuntas]

I havent seen a point to raid since cata. You get nothing out of raiding - Unless you enjoy it and enjoy your guild. Yes OK, you get a mythic mount and gear thats better than others, but thats all..

[rhorle]

300 wipes on a final boss doesn't make you terrible, that's been a pretty standard number on any Final Boss in BfA.

If you are still wiping 300 times every attempt? It does. Are you still better a lot of others? Sure. But being good doesn't mean constantly wiping 300 times. The world first guilds are not good because they take 300 times every attempt but because they learn the fight and can repeat it for a one-shot or "few-shot".

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, because previously that happened within a 1-3 month span, right?

Every since Blizzard added in catch-up gear you haven't needed to do the old tiers. You didn't need to progress through each tier of content in WotLK in order to gear up. You could do ToC, or later the ICC 5-mans, to gear up for raids. You didn't need to run the previous tiers if you didn't want to. Blizzard has expanded the catch up mechanics over the years to make it easier to enter new content.

[Kralljin]

It's exactly how artifact power has worked since implication.

The better question would be whether AP was a good mechanic, especially on that context.
And considering Blizzard has been pretty hard on the "It's not like AP!" train, i think even Blizzard thinks it was a bad mechanic.

You're flat out being dishonest if you're trying to say that waiting in WoW hasn't made things easier in general.

Funny, because earlier i said:

It highlights a greater problem in WoW

Which implies the issue existing beyond the current topic, which includes AP.

If you are still wiping 300 times every attempt? It does. Are you still better a lot of others? Sure. But being good doesn't mean constantly wiping 300 times. The world first guilds are not good because they take 300 times every attempt but because they learn the fight and can repeat it for a one-shot or "few-shot".

I seriously do not understand your point.

You didn't need to progress through each tier of content in WotLK in order to gear up.

And Wotlk didn't have a game mode competing with Raiding (wthout a lockout i might add), alongside a weekly chest containing heroic Ilvl loot and a vendor selling Heroic Ilvl Tier pieces.

A poor comparison.

[Jastall]

PvP players would disagree with you. Some PvP players don’t want to have to raid to get BiS trinkets and gear, and many ask for vendors with equal raid gear all the time. Some PvE players also don’t want to have to do PvP content to get their BiS items. Some players that just want to focus m+ don’t want to step into either.
Again, I’m not saying it’s a perfect fix because you can’t appease everyone; however, the way I put it makes it so people who WANT to do those things have the option to (yes it can be a grind getting multiple sets), instead of players NEEDING to do those things.

For all its numerous faults, I feel that WoD did PvP gearing the best. PvP gear is below Heroic ilvl most of the time (if memory serves), but BiS in its environment no questions asked. That's perfect as far as I'm concerned, PvP players should obtain the best gear from PvP. I'm not a fan of segregating content as a principle, but when it comes to PvE vs PvP I feel that the divide is large enough to warrant more extraordinary measures. So long as said PvP gear doesn't take too long to obtain, of course.

[Jester Joe]

The better question would be whether AP was a good mechanic, especially on that context.
And considering Blizzard has been pretty hard on the "It's not like AP!" train, i think even Blizzard thinks it was a bad mechanic.


Funny, because earlier i said:

Which implies the issue existing beyond the current topic, which includes AP.

Let's not make assumptions there. People at Blizzard thought Classic would be a bad idea, but they still did it. Pretty clear even if they think something is a good mechanic, they'll adjust based on the communities reaction.

And this is just goalpost moving, because you claim something was a strawman, it's pointed out how that's wrong and instead you just deflect and double down on the same circular argument.

From the start of WoW, content has always gotten easier as time went on. The timeframe is irrelevant, catch-up mechanics have always existed. So to try to claim that it's an "issue" is just weird because it's what the game functions on.

Maybe realize it's subjective whether or not someone wants to put in the work to get the gear now or wait over a month to get the piece they want?
You act as if "why do it now when I can wait and do it easier!" is the mentality of the entire playerbase, when it's clear that the world first race shows that isn't true.

There are plenty of players that enjoy a challenge. It would be like saying "Why play this game on Hard when I can pick Easy?" and then try to act like everyone picks easy.

[Kralljin]

Let's not make assumptions there. People at Blizzard thought Classic would be a bad idea, but they still did it.

You're comparing apples to oranges.
Classic is a whole game, AP is at the end of the day just a mechanic.

Heck, AP itself wasn't even the issue, just the fact that Blizzard basically designed this system around its catchup mechanic, which basically incentived you to not farm any AP until the reduction is capped out, because it would be far more efficient that way.
A reduction that happened every week, so that mechanic was pretty much present.

And this is just goalpost moving, because you claim something was a strawman, it's pointed out how that's wrong and instead you just deflect and double down on the same circular argument.

From the start of WoW, content has always gotten easier as time went on. The timeframe is irrelevant, catch-up mechanics have always existed. So to try to claim that it's an "issue" is just weird because it's what the game functions on.

It is a strawman, because in previous expansions you did not have Vendor that sold you Tier set pieces of the highest Ilvl and a weekly chest which awarded the highest Itemlevel, nor a mechanic which awarded power where the most efficient way of playing it was to wait until a weekly reduction was capped out.

These things did not exist in prior expansions, ignoring this simple reality and claiming "it has always existed" IS a strawman, because it denounces any middleway and puts the catchup mechanics of previous expansions onto the same level as those despite not nearly being on the same level.

If you didn't want to raid in Cata, then that's it, you're not going to raid equivalent gear from the current patch outside of a few scraps like craftables and BoE's.

Now you can not raid Mythic and still get Mythic equivalent loot within the very same patch, that's the major difference.

You act as if "why do it now when I can wait and do it easier!" is the mentality of the entire playerbase, when it's clear that the world first race shows that isn't true.

Are you trying to imply that the world first race is indicative of how the majority of playerbase engages with those systems?

There are plenty of players that enjoy a challenge. It would be like saying "Why play this game on Hard when I can pick Easy?" and then try to act like everyone picks easy.

And some players also do look how much time they invest into something and how much they get out of it, especially in a game where rewards play a huge motivational factor.

[rhorle]

It is a strawman, because in previous expansions you did not have Vendor that sold you Tier set pieces of the highest Ilvl and a weekly chest which awarded the highest Itemlevel, nor a mechanic which awarded power where the most efficient way of playing it was to wait until a weekly reduction was capped out.

The term welfare epic was used by developers during The Burning Crusade. Those things have existed in some form whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Why did we struggle through clearing previous raids of Wotlk? When patch the ICC 5-mans made them easy because of the item level of gear obtained from a 5-man versus those raids? WoW has had the problem of waiting for an easier time to do content for at least a decade now.

[tangers58]

Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

Sounds more like you just don't like raiding anymore. If you want to raid... then raid... if you just want to progress then pick whichever you like better.

[MaximusPM]

Players be like:

"OMG, the game is so hard now, WotLK was the peak of player activity because it was easy"
"OMG, the game is so easy now, WoTLK was the peak of player activity because you had to be hardcore"

Let's be honest, WotLK was peak of player activity because of one thing: ARTHAS.

Now, onto the topic. Maybe you're focusing too much on gearing? Raiding is about defeating the bosses and the satisfaction from doing it, not from the loot that the boss drops.

You dont really HAVE to do Mythic, you only do it if you want to challenge yourself. And LFR is a good experience for players who don't have the time or the skill necessary to enjoy the full story experience. WoW is a RPG after all, everyone who pays for the game has the right to at least experience the whole story.

If you feel like there are too many progressions, focus on one, the one most appropriate for your skill level.

Also, the community changed a lot. it's not much about the game or the tools, but how people use them. I understand it can be frustrating puging some times, people care too much about numbers. Many numbers. In that regard Wrath was a bit simpler, however, let's not forget about gearscore.

[Jester Joe]

You're comparing apples to oranges.
Classic is a whole game, AP is at the end of the day just a mechanic.

Heck, AP itself wasn't even the issue, just the fact that Blizzard basically designed this system around its catchup mechanic, which basically incentived you to not farm any AP until the reduction is capped out, because it would be far more efficient that way.
A reduction that happened every week, so that mechanic was pretty much present.


It is a strawman, because in previous expansions you did not have Vendor that sold you Tier set pieces of the highest Ilvl and a weekly chest which awarded the highest Itemlevel, nor a mechanic which awarded power where the most efficient way of playing it was to wait until a weekly reduction was capped out.

These things did not exist in prior expansions, ignoring this simple reality and claiming "it has always existed" IS a strawman, because it denounces any middleway and puts the catchup mechanics of previous expansions onto the same level as those despite not nearly being on the same level.

If you didn't want to raid in Cata, then that's it, you're not going to raid equivalent gear from the current patch outside of a few scraps like craftables and BoE's.

Now you can not raid Mythic and still get Mythic equivalent loot within the very same patch, that's the major difference.

Are you trying to imply that the world first race is indicative of how the majority of playerbase engages with those systems?

And some players also do look how much time they invest into something and how much they get out of it, especially in a game where rewards play a huge motivational factor.

How can you post this with a straight face and seriously forget that you could buy 2 pieces of your tier gear for Valor points in each raid tier in Cataclysm, along with other pieces of similar raid quality gear.

Again, you're flat out wrong. It's always existed.

Even if you TRY to make the argument of "Well it wasn't heroic!" neither is the gear that you actually get from +15s. It's slightly behind.

You're just cherrypicking at this point to try to ignore that WoW has always had catch up mechanics.

[Kralljin]

Those things have existed in some form whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Maybe you should read the next paragraph...?

These things did not exist in prior expansions, ignoring this simple reality and claiming "it has always existed" IS a strawman, because it denounces any middleway and puts the catchup mechanics of previous expansions onto the same level as those despite not nearly being on the same level.

How can you post this with a straight face and seriously forget that you could buy 2 pieces of your tier gear for Valor points in each raid tier in Cataclysm, along with other pieces of similar raid quality gear.

Those pieces weren't heroic, nor could they cover every slot, just two, no matter how long you're waiting within the patch.
You didn't even get your 4pc just through the vendor.

I know what i say and i know these mechanics worked.

Even if you TRY to make the argument of "Well it wasn't heroic!" neither is the gear that you actually get from +15s. It's slightly behind.

And the weekly chest & Azerite pieces, on what Ilvl are those?
Notice the difference between these two things?

Remember, what was Heroic is now Mythic.

[Jester Joe]

He is in no way wrong with what he is saying, but you do you.

Then back it up with proof.

He keeps trying to drag up random other things to deflect from the fact that WoW has always had catch up mechanics. Remember, his initial claim was that it's not worth doing mythic for gear, because "why do it now when he can just wait for a trickle of gear" which is exactly what the valor system was.

Those pieces weren't heroic, nor could they cover every slot, just two, no matter how long you're waiting within the patch.
You didn't even get your 4pc just through the vendor.

I know what i say and i know these mechanics worked.

And the weekly chest & Azerite pieces, on what Ilvl are those?
Notice the difference between these two things?

Remember, what was Heroic is now Mythic.

And you can't get any non azerite piece through the azerite vendor.

So you're stuck waiting for a month at least to buy a single 475 azerite piece, without having any reliable source for the rest of your slots.

You can try to claim that the weekly 475 you get from the chest is enough, but the RNG is far too wild to actually be useful usually unless anything would be an upgrade.
Point in fact, I do a +15 each week, and I never got an offhand.
I ended up getting mine finally from the raid instead.

This is just going in circles though, you accuse me of fallacies while you're doing them yourself. You say I'm strawmanning by pointing out WoW has always let you take an easy route by waiting, but then you flat out move the goalpost by dismissing the entire artifact knowledge system, or the legendary cape catch up now.

Or the multiple nerfs they make to content in general to make it more accessible, or the multiple nerfs they made to certain essence grinds.

No, you dismiss that because "well they're moving away from AP so they must have known it was a bad system"

Okay, then they moved away from raids being the only source of 475 gear because it's a bad system!

At the end of the day, no matter how much you try to argue about it, your argument in the first place was that "mythic isn't worth the time investment". Which is subjective anyway, and fails to acknowledge the challenge that M+ holds. You make it sound as if m+ is a complete cakewalk that takes no time at all.


But even then, most +15s take at least 25-30 minutes on average I'd say.
You can easily kill Wrathion and squeeze another boss in during that time, or at least be on another boss by then.

So two chances at 475 gear instead of one.

[Kralljin]

And you can't get any non azerite piece through the azerite vendor.

...Weekly chest.

Point in fact, I do a +15 each week, and I never got an offhand.

Question is whether that offhand would be worth dealing to join a Mythic raid, meaning you'd have to abide by a fixed schedule, be prepared for raids, potentially get other characters ready and so forth.

That's kinda the problem.

You say I'm strawmanning by pointing out WoW has always let you take an easy route by waiting, but then you flat out move the goalpost by dismissing the entire artifact knowledge system, or the legendary cape catch up now.

What?!

Mate, in the very first post that i've replied to you, i said that it highlights a greater problem.

It highlights a greater problem in WoW

Then i further specified it by saying:

Which implies the issue existing beyond the current topic, which includes AP.

And now you tell i'm moving the goalposts, despite acknowledging these very things early on?

It really displays some serious dishonesty to actually present this as an argument.

No, you dismiss that because "well they're moving away from AP so they must have known it was a bad system"

That's more personal conclusion, rather a dismissal, as said above, i very much acknowledged that AP is part of this issue.

your argument in the first place was that "mythic isn't worth the time investment". Which is subjective anyway

Yes..?
If you believe Mythic raiding is worth the effort, be my guest, but looking back how the game has worked over the last 10-12 years, what you get out of enganging in the hardest difficulty and what you have to put into it has gotten worse in comparison to its alternatives.

I mean, "being subjective" are a lot of things, the balance of the corruption system can also be seen as "subjective", simply because something is subjective doesn't mean that anything can be just dismissed on that basis.

and fails to acknowledge the challenge that M+ holds.

Do you really want to argue that an M+15 is equivalent to Mythic Bosses, especially the later ones (Ra-den, Ill'gynoth, etc..)?

They're naturally easier by this point because everybody already knows these dungeons like the back of their hand as people who have played the entirety of BfA are doing them since Day one.

You make it sound as if m+ is a complete cakewalk that takes no time at all.

A weekly M+15 vs. raiding 2-3 days per week.

You tell me what's a greater time investment.

You can easily kill Wrathion and squeeze another boss in during that time, or at least be on another boss by then.

Have you taken the time that actually entails in being in a Mythic guild into account, including things such as progression and whatnot?

Not like a Mythic guild calls it after Wrathion and Skitra and says "we're good for this week!".

[goldlock]

...Weekly chest.

Question is whether that offhand would be worth dealing to join a Mythic raid, meaning you'd have to abide by a fixed schedule, be prepared for raids, potentially get other characters ready and so forth.

That's kinda the problem.

What?!

Mate, in the very first post that i've replied to you, i said that it highlights a greater problem.

Then i further specified it by saying:

And now you tell i'm moving the goalposts, despite acknowledging these very things early on?

It really displays some serious dishonesty to actually present this as an argument.

That's more personal conclusion, rather a dismissal, as said above, i very much acknowledged that AP is part of this issue.

Yes..?
If you believe Mythic raiding is worth the effort, be my guest, but looking back how the game has worked over the last 10-12 years, what you get out of enganging in the hardest difficulty and what you have to put into it has gotten worse in comparison to its alternatives.

I mean, "being subjective" are a lot of things, the balance of the corruption system can also be seen as "subjective", simply because something is subjective doesn't mean that anything can be just dismissed on that basis.

Do you really want to argue that an M+15 is equivalent to Mythic Bosses, especially the later ones (Ra-den, Ill'gynoth, etc..)?

They're naturally easier by this point because everybody already knows these dungeons like the back of their hand as people who have played the entirety of BfA are doing them since Day one.

A weekly M+15 vs. raiding 2-3 days per week.

You tell me what's a greater time investment.

Have you taken the time that actually entails in being in a Mythic guild into account, including things such as progression and whatnot?

Not like a Mythic guild calls it after Wrathion and Skitra and says "we're good for this week!".

I mean if you wait 3-4 weeks you can usually pug the first quarter of a mythic raid pretty easily. I can understand it not being your thing but you don't need a ton of time to do some mythic and you don't need anything but a fixed schedule to full clear it.

[Kralljin]

I mean if you wait 3-4 weeks you can usually pug the first quarter of a mythic raid pretty easily. I can understand it not being your thing but you don't need a ton of time to do some mythic and you don't need anything but a fixed schedule to full clear it.

Doesn't this further support the point i'm making?
I mean, yeah you can kill the early Mythic bosses with a pug, but it further reinforces the point that you can just wait until Mythic opens up and then dabble into the first Mythic bosses.

The later bosses do not necessarily drop better loot, even final bosses such as G'huun & Jaina were famously not farmed by a lot of hardcore guilds because the effort was not worth the rewards.

[Jester Joe]

...Weekly chest.

How can you say I'm being dishonest and criticize me for "but I said this back here" when you literally cut out my entire section talking about the flaws of the loot from the chest, which according to your own logic is obviously flawed since blizzard is fixing it.

Question is whether that offhand would be worth dealing to join a Mythic raid, meaning you'd have to abide by a fixed schedule, be prepared for raids, potentially get other characters ready and so forth.

That's kinda the problem.

Because it's some sort of common trend for guilds to require multiple classes still? Spoiler, it's not.

What?!

Mate, in the very first post that i've replied to you, i said that it highlights a greater problem.

Then i further specified it by saying:

And now you tell i'm moving the goalposts, despite acknowledging these very things early on?

I repeat, it's a problem in YOUR opinion. But that doesn't change how the game has always operated.

Yes..?
If you believe Mythic raiding is worth the effort, be my guest, but looking back how the game has worked over the last 10-12 years, what you get out of enganging in the hardest difficulty and what you have to put into it has gotten worse in comparison to its alternatives.

But the topic at hand is whether or not mythic in general is worth it, so you can hardly come in here claiming in your subjective opinion it isn't, and then dismiss others as if you're not presenting an opinion. Because you've boiled it down to "you can get gear at a slower rate this other way", which ignores that a lot of the strongest gear comes from the raid being completely unobtainable from m+, like the hunter bow or the raden weapons/trinkets.

So while it's fine to prefer m+, it's wrong to act as if the gear from the raid isn't valuable and worth the investment to some.

Do you really want to argue that an M+15 is equivalent to Mythic Bosses, especially the later ones (Ra-den, Ill'gynoth, etc..)?

You ignore the extra value you get from them to make up for the challenge though. Like the raden gear being far better than anything you can get from m+.

They're naturally easier by this point because everybody already knows these dungeons like the back of their hand as people who have played the entirety of BfA are doing them since Day one.

That's a weird way to completely ignore the next affix, and ignore that it's been getting easier week by week because of corruptions along (like I said, things getting easier as the time goes on is a repeating theme in WoW)

weekly M+15 vs. raiding 2-3 days per week.

You tell me what's a greater time investment.

Have you taken the time that actually entails in being in a Mythic guild into account, including things such as progression and whatnot?

Not like a Mythic guild calls it after Wrathion and Skitra and says "we're good for this week!".

As you're not acknowledging how much time it takes to push a decent io score so you can get into pug groups for a +15 a week?
Otherwise you're still either pushing keys up yourself which is a time investment, or getting carried by friends which isn't worth comparing coz you can get carried through the raid too.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesn't this further support the point i'm making?
I mean, yeah you can kill the early Mythic bosses with a pug, but it further reinforces the point that you can just wait until Mythic opens up and then dabble into the first Mythic bosses.

The later bosses do not necessarily drop better loot, even final bosses such as G'huun & Jaina were famously not farmed by a lot of hardcore guilds because the effort was not worth the rewards.

So 2 out of 5?

Uunat Azshara and Nzoth all drop some off the best trinkets for casters.

[Kralljin]

How can you say I'm being dishonest and criticize me for "but I said this back here" when you literally cut out my entire section talking about the flaws of the loot from the chest, which according to your own logic is obviously flawed since blizzard is fixing it.

Because it's the old "but muh RNG" argument, guess what, if you're not raiding Mythic, the chances of getting an upgrade of your weekly chest are a lot higher.
Especially early on.

Because it's some sort of common trend for guilds to require multiple classes still? Spoiler, it's not.

Keyword: potentially

But that doesn't change how the game has always operated.

Please tell me the game modes in Wotlk, Cata and MoP that awarded 25man Heroic Ilvl loot without actually raiding those in the current tier.

But the topic at hand is whether or not mythic in general is worth it, so you can hardly come in here claiming in your subjective opinion it isn't, and then dismiss others as if you're not presenting an opinion.

Because your primary point is "the game has always worked this way" which is factually false, the game hasn't given you those rewards on that level until Legion / BfA.

So while it's fine to prefer m+, it's wrong to act as if the gear from the raid isn't valuable and worth the investment to some.

I mean yeah, why do you think the raiding participation has been dropping since BfA?

You ignore the extra value you get from them to make up for the challenge though. Like the raden gear being far better than anything you can get from m+.

And stuff from Ra-den is more of the exception, look at Ill'gynoth loot, what's special in there?

That's a weird way to completely ignore the next affix, and ignore that it's been getting easier week by week because of corruptions along (like I said, things getting easier as the time goes on is a repeating theme in WoW)

Because we also have the same affixes since the start of BfA and Awakening is most certainly not something that makes dungeons that much harder.

As you're not acknowledging how much time it takes to push a decent io score so you can get into pug groups for a +15 a week?

And you can just walk into a Mythic guild by comparison?

Uunat Azshara and Nzoth all drop some off the best trinkets for casters.

The N'zoth caster trinket isn't that great for the popular casters (Destro & Fire).

Uu'nat trinkets was pretty much just a trinket that looked good in sims because the silence effect could seriously screw you.
Also, Uu'nat was that difficult that you were better off fishing for a warforged / titanforged one from Heroic.
Most guilds (including mine) just straight up skipped that Boss because he wasn't worth it.

The Azshara Trinket is the only decent one, but the rest of her loot table wasn't that amazing either besides the Staff, which also was quickly replaced in Nya'lotha.

So yeah, the only thing here worth mentioning is the Azshara one, that's about it.

[Jester Joe]

Because it's the old "but muh RNG" argument, guess what, if you're not raiding Mythic, the chances of getting an upgrade of your weekly chest are a lot higher.
Especially early on.

Except chances of getting a +15 done early in the season were also low unless you were a mythic raider in the first place.

Keyword: potentially

Just like you can potentially just find another guild instead.

Please tell me the game modes in Wotlk, Cata and MoP that awarded 25man Heroic Ilvl loot without actually raiding those in the current tier.

Because your primary point is "the game has always worked this way" which is factually false, the game hasn't given you those rewards on that level until Legion / BfA.

Except you're oversimplifying what I'm saying to try to prove a point.

WoW has always operated on making it easier to do things later in the long run.
You took that claim, made it into a "well it's never been this bad, not in the span of 1-3 months!" while missing we're far more than that into 8.3, and ignoring that it was never my claim that it HAS to fall in a 1-3 month range alone.
Mind you, patches tend be paced at a 4 month interval rate from what I remember, maybe 5 months so yeah, things are far easier at about that rate.

Also you miss that it's constant change as WoW has gone on.
You're pointing to expansions that were 10 years ago as proof, yet missing that MoP even had the upgrade system that allowed you to make your normal gear on par with heroic while not doing any content close to that in difficulty. At least the M+ system does scale to be a challenge.

I mean yeah, why do you think the raiding participation has been dropping since BfA?

Source.

And stuff from Ra-den is more of the exception, look at Ill'gynoth loot, what's special in there?

Caster wand with IE which is pretty solid, especially for holy priest. One of two shields throughout the entire raid.
Azerite pieces.

Let's not pretend he's completely useless.

Because we also have the same affixes since the start of BfA and Awakening is most certainly not something that makes dungeons that much harder.

They changed the entire way dungeons are ran.

And you can just walk into a Mythic guild by comparison?

pugs are a thing, yes. And it doesn't carry the weight of someone killing your key, if someone's underperforming on Wrathion they can just be kicked and nothing is screwed up.

The N'zoth caster trinket isn't that great for the popular casters (Destro & Fire).

There's more casters ya now.
And even destro still uses it decently, it makes for good flexibility when you can't reliably channel font or want to double on use trinket.
https://nyalotha.subcreation.net/des...ck-mythic.html

So you can go check again to see that it's pretty strong still.

Uu'nat trinkets was pretty much just a trinket that looked good in sims because the silence effect could seriously screw you.
Also, Uu'nat was that difficult that you were better off fishing for a warforged / titanforged one from Heroic.
Most guilds (including mine) just straight up skipped that Boss because he wasn't worth it.

The only comparable trinket at the time was opus trinket which was heavily screwed up by anyone without one coming near.

So when you can pick between hoping a hunter doesn't hop on your head, or a negative effect that you can neutralize yourself while being a stronger trinket, well you can weigh the risks yourself.

And I don't really take the idea of fishing for one on heroic as an excuse because that was true for everything at the time if you desperately wanted a piece.

The Azshara Trinket is the only decent one, but the rest of her loot table wasn't that amazing either besides the Staff, which also was quickly replaced in Nya'lotha.

So yeah, the only thing here worth mentioning is the Azshara one, that's about it.

Decent is really the understatement of the year.

And those were just examples, you seem to have a fixation on trying to dismiss examples missing that there's far more from the bosses.

For example, Lingering Psychic Shell from Nzoth. There's more than that to point to.