My wish for Shadowlands: All raids thats not current patch, should become UBRS.

[Zenjie]

Dunno what to say to you. You keep ignoring that some raids are still viable, and that people would STILL lack time to run extra raid in the week, even if it's single wing, and that people would STILL be fed up with raid they just progressed on for few months. And no, no one forces anyone to run 5-mans. I have people in my guild who don't touch them beside weekly chest and are doing just fine gear wise. Your proposition is not happening.

I disagree with you. You hold different opinion, that is okay.
Raids are viable, but not on same level as 5man dungeons. 5 man dungeons are way more relevant/viable/easier to run into, which made raids so unattractive to run into. People lack time and MOTIVATION to run older raids. That is precisely my point.

[rhorle]

You are right, no one forces me to do 5man dungeons. But there are not many options left to make me able to progress my character.
Blizzard is making 5man dungeons as catchup gear. But why would it hurt to make Uldir and BoD catch up gear as well? If they were split up into wings, like they do with Mechagon by splitting into two for heroics. That would make raids much more accesible and ran with much more people. You might see people starting to like them.
To progress your character, nowadays you are left with only 5man dungeons and raids became obsolete.

Time vs Reward. If you need 10 players to do a "current item level" old raid then most people will still prefer to do a Heroic 5-man (and world quests) in order to gear up? Why? Because less people are required. The run gets done faster. And you don't have to worry about raid type mechanics. Then you jump into normal and out gear this new raid mode. 10 people takes more time to fill then 5. If you just want them dumbed down into Heroics 5-mans then that is something possible. But catch up raids are not very practical. Unless they are quick and/or easy. And Blizzard won't be making them repeatable for infinite loot unless that loot is on par with 5-mans.

If we want to make old raids more popular it isn't by tying current tier gear to them (except maybe in the form of a weekly like with Timewalking). But by making it fun or interesting to do it. Random "fun" affixes. Currency farms. Transmog farms. Achievements. Mounts etc. The Timewalking system could be expanded in a lot of different ways to make it more interesting and fun.

[rhorle]

I disagree with you. You hold different opinion, that is okay.
Raids are viable, but not on same level as 5man dungeons. 5 man dungeons are way more relevant/viable/easier to run into, which made raids so unattractive to run into. People lack time and MOTIVATION to run older raids. That is precisely my point.

But there isn't any way to give time or motivation to run old raids with out making them a requirement for progression. Because other sources are quicker and easier.

[ZazuuPriest]

That wouldn't make old tiers relevant though. Because people would still be doing the current content for upgrades. The reason why old tiers are not relevant isn't because of the item level bump but because Blizzard adds in catch up mechanics elsewhere instead of tying it to raid tiers.

no, the reason even great items from older tiers become irrelevant is that they're 15-45 item levels lower than the current tier making the stats outweigh any potential proc or on use effects. Change that to 5-15 item levels and all of the sudden that first tier trinket could still be BIS through the next raid tier if youre doing normal or heroic and maybe even a tier and a half to two tiers if you were able to get it on mythic difficulty. they need to close the item level gap close the gap between tiers this would also (should) prevent them from making dungeon gear drops higher ilvl than the older raids because the gap in ilvl would already be so much closer.

[rhorle]

no, the reason even great items from older tiers become irrelevant is that they're 15-45 item levels lower than the current tier making the stats outweigh any potential proc or on use effects. Change that to 5-15 item levels and all of the sudden that first tier trinket could still be BIS through the next raid tier if youre doing normal or heroic and maybe even a tier and a half to two tiers if you were able to get it on mythic difficulty. they need to close the item level gap close the gap between tiers this would also (should) prevent them from making dungeon gear drops higher ilvl than the older raids because the gap in ilvl would already be so much closer.

So old content is relevant simply because of one or two over powered items? Why would someone do an old raid when they could do a 5-man or World Quest that rewards the same item level? It isn't the item level differences that invalidate old raids. It is the catch up mechanics making it so you don't have to run old raids for the same item level of gear.

Also why should a previous tier trinket or item be Best in Slot for a current tier, or entire expansion? Last tier gear already carries you through current content. Because you are not required to progress Normal, Heroic, and Mythic just because it is a new tier. Mythic BoD gear would carry you through Heroic EP easily. The item level gap is irrelevant if the content is balanced around those gaps existing.

A 5-15 difference can be made to be more difficult then a 15-45 difference.

[Belloc]

the raids do have a +10 version. sadly people and mechanics do not scale down well in regards to points of failures in group mates

Frankly, all raids since WoD should've been tuned specifically for 10 and 25-versions in normal and heroic, with scaling for group sizes in-between. They should be designed so that 10-man raids are fully capable of clearing every fight without any prohibitive balance issues. Scale up from 10 and down from 25 (and I guess up to 30).

I'm all for a flexible raid environment, but sacrificing the 10-man experience was unacceptable.

That said, I see no point in any major rebalancing of a raid after a new one has been released, aside from legacy-raid changes a few years later. New gear makes old raids, even one patch-old raids, significantly easier, and that new gear is very easy to acquire, whether it be from Mythic+ or normal mode of the current raid (or world quests and PvP!). There's absolutely no need to rebalance previous raids when the readily available new gear does it for you.

[Tiev]

I like this idea.

[ZazuuPriest]

Why would someone do an old raid when they could do a 5-man or World Quest that rewards the same item level?

It is the catch up mechanics making it so you don't have to run old raids for the same item level of gear.

Also why should a previous tier trinket or item be Best in Slot for a current tier, or entire expansion? The item level gap is irrelevant if the content is balanced around those gaps existing.

Because if the item level explosion each tier didnt exist this wouldnt be the case, WQ and daily heroic rewards should never reward anything higher than 5 item levels lower than the first tier normal raid.

catch up mechanics need not exist in a system where all raids are relevant with earlier tiers obviously diminishing naturally through a softer progression of gear

Why shouldnt an amazing trinket be relevant throughout an entire expansion. Items and trinkets (w.e) that add utility or that are just mad powerful are fun and a lot of times it feels like shit to replace it with some stat stick (punch cards ect) just because the stats get bloated so much

item level gap has always been relevant since the inception of 4 raid difficulties so obviously they cant balance around it outside of making 3/4 of an expansions content useless during that same expansion. its shit game design.

[rhorle]

Because if the item level explosion each tier didnt exist this wouldnt be the case, WQ and daily heroic rewards should never reward anything higher than 5 item levels lower than the first tier normal raid.

But that doesn't have to do with item level increasing during tiers by a large amount. Catch up mechanics can not exist when all tiers are still relevant because that is the point of a catch up mechanic. You catch up to the current content. You can't catch up to something if you still have to progress through 1-3 past tiers of content just to get ready for normal raiding.

An amazing trinket shouldn't be relevant through out an entire expansion because then you have nothing to gear for or gain. Some classes would get BIS one month into a new expansion while others have to wait for the last raid tier. There is nothing to gear for if items last forever. Which is a large part of the treadmill of raiding and character power progressing in WoW. It may be fun but why should you have the same fun for 2 years instead of having new fun each tier?

Item level still exists in your design. So if it is terrible design you should suggest a solution that doesn't still use it.

[Zenjie]

Time vs Reward. If you need 10 players to do a "current item level" old raid then most people will still prefer to do a Heroic 5-man (and world quests) in order to gear up? Why? Because less people are required. The run gets done faster. And you don't have to worry about raid type mechanics. Then you jump into normal and out gear this new raid mode. 10 people takes more time to fill then 5. If you just want them dumbed down into Heroics 5-mans then that is something possible. But catch up raids are not very practical. Unless they are quick and/or easy. And Blizzard won't be making them repeatable for infinite loot unless that loot is on par with 5-mans.

If we want to make old raids more popular it isn't by tying current tier gear to them (except maybe in the form of a weekly like with Timewalking). But by making it fun or interesting to do it. Random "fun" affixes. Currency farms. Transmog farms. Achievements. Mounts etc. The Timewalking system could be expanded in a lot of different ways to make it more interesting and fun.

Raid type mechanics is exactly why I love about this game, WoW. Yeah, my suggestion is as well "make older raids" quick by splitting older raids into smaller wings. BoD could have three wings, that you can enter which you want and be finished with just 3 bosses. That will take same time as you running 5 man dungeon. Around 1 hour. To be honest, system is already there. LFR, there are wings. You don't need to do full run to reach king rangstakhan, just jump into which wing king rangstakhan are.
If this system was implemented by normal and heroic, then the filling people to take 10 raid might not take a while.

By the way, I agree with you, I think that is excellent suggestion as well. No need to put current tier gear into it. But making it fun/interesting to do.
Fun affixes, currency farms, quests to make you return to older raids, transmog farms and WoD there was World Tour quests, that you had to finish older raids. Yeah, Timewalking system could be expanded much more.

TimeWalking Ulduar is great, but still kinda fails because it is hard to make full run. But if Timewalking Ulduar was split into wings, like 3 wings for 3 bosses each. TimeWalking Ulduar might have more success.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a bad idea in essence, if it's just catch-up gear, except that there would be way too many of them and it would cause a huge spread of player activity, which in consequence would risk there rarely being enough people available to form a full group.

Possible solution:
Put it on weekly rotation which 10-man dungeon is available that week.

Yes, excellent idea. I said in my OP as well, rotate them 5 days/weekly. So, the spread of player activity will be focused on only raid, thus making easier to form the raid group.

[Azerate]

Old raids becoming old and outgearable is part of the gameplay loop of wow now. Thankfully Blizzard is more imaginative than OP and knows doing that wouldn't be a good idea that would piss a lot of people off.

Just leave the old fucking raids alone man, why you trying to ruin other people's fun?

[ClassicPeon]

This could actually be a good idea.

Make the last raid patch raid into the new lfr(ie not lfr but something closer to flex difficulty that was in MoP).

Something most people can do. Make the drops 5 levels below the new normal difficulty or something. Loose the sesspit that is lfr forever and make it available for the last raid in the expansion a few months after its release.

[Zenjie]

Old raids becoming old and outgearable is part of the gameplay loop of wow now. Thankfully Blizzard is more imaginative than OP and knows doing that wouldn't be a good idea that would piss a lot of people off.

Just leave the old fucking raids alone man, why you trying to ruin other people's fun?

Why is BoD raid old to you? And Uldir? Im talking about raids of current expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

This could actually be a good idea.

Make the last raid patch raid into the new lfr(ie not lfr but something closer to flex difficulty that was in MoP).

Something most people can do. Make the drops 5 levels below the new normal difficulty or something. Loose the sesspit that is lfr forever and make it available for the last raid in the expansion a few months after its release.

excellent idea!!

[Eazy]

No, thanks. It's horrible idea. Especially with the newest weekly chest.

[ClassicPeon]

No, thanks. It's horrible idea. Especially with the newest weekly chest.

How do yo ucome to that conclusion?

[Otrew]

i love raiding , but meh. my guild raid 2 night at week, there is not enouh time to gather 10+ people and do more raiding besides the current one.

Also not all people play all the tiers, if old raids could give you upgrades you need to teach mechanics to people who was not there in the past and thats just problems.

[Jaggler]

There are already a lot of catch-up mechanics in WoW. I don't think giving players incentives to actively pursue older raids (apart from cosmetics) is a good idea. Imagine the burnout if people had to run Uldir or Crucible of Storms even now.

The vast majority of people will always take the path of least resistance to gear up, and I doubt a catch-up mechanic via raids would have a huge impact in that regard.

[Zenjie]

There are already a lot of catch-up mechanics in WoW. I don't think giving players incentives to actively pursue older raids (apart from cosmetics) is a good idea. Imagine the burnout if people had to run Uldir or Crucible of Storms even now.

The vast majority of people will always take the path of least resistance to gear up, and I doubt a catch-up mechanic via raids would have a huge impact in that regard.

If they did make each raids split into wings. So Each wing lasts only one hour. And not every raid is available each week but only rotations. The path of resistance will be low enough to make attractive to run specific wings of raid.

- - - Updated - - -

i love raiding , but meh. my guild raid 2 night at week, there is not enouh time to gather 10+ people and do more raiding besides the current one.

Also not all people play all the tiers, if old raids could give you upgrades you need to teach mechanics to people who was not there in the past and thats just problems.

Teaching people and learning raid is part of the fun .
I do that all time as the leader of PUG runs.

[Hellcleaver]

I'm not sure if the daily reset+having relevant loot is a good idea...

But i'm all for anything that makes mythic raids accessible to smaller guilds. My guild is 100% good enough to down a good amount of mythic bosses every tier, but we barely ever get to cause we don't field 20 people. We prefer to keep it tight rather than be recruiting constantly.

Yes i'm aware cross realm mythic opens eventually, if we're good enough to do it early, we'd like to at least have a shot at it.

So just because your guild doesnt want to recruit blizzard should bend over to you guys?

[Temp1on2]

learning raid is part of the fun

Yes.

Teaching people

No.

Sure there's a niche for it (it's the internet) but I doubt many would share this opinion. I don't find it particularly enjoyable or engaging to constantly wipe on something I've mastered 6 weeks ago to "teach" someone. If anything this is a necessary evil if a guild finds itself missing a spot in a raid group, but I'm positive no one would want this to become the norm where everyone needs to learn and relearn every raid.