Do people actually believe that RPG means story and cosmetic only?

[goldlock]

No but they push a narrative, its obvious

- - - Updated - - -



you thinking those are different things reveals you have no idea what you talking about.
The ability to make the wrong choice and be punished for it its core to rpgs. See Obsidians Fallout New Vegas GCD Panel

but I guess those guys have no idea vs the mighty forum poster that proclaim everyone is a snowflake that one freebies because he is assmad that this game is not overwatch with raids

Yeah fallout made a amazing mmo didn't?

Why not just admit you don't know what it is you want or are arguing?

[Cosmic Janitor]

edit: from what ive seen so far, the issue is the people who feel some self-imposed pressure to make the choice top players make because they think it matters when it comes down to their performance, while in reality learning the basics will be a much bigger improvement for them.

No, the issue is people that don't like dead buttons on their hot bars because they switched the game mode they currently play in from raiding to PvP or PvP to M+ or...

[goldlock]

*makes a claim about rpgs in general*
*has no idea about what he is talking*
*says "fallout made an amazing mmo"* (lmaou)
*pivot to this being an mmo, appealing to authority that blizzard made an amazing mmo knows best*
*defeats own braindead argument because blizzard thinks covenants with lockouts are best*
did you make an amazing mmo? no, so btfo
QED

Defends fall out as a mmo...

Have some dignity... if your trying to troll the goal isn't to come out this beaten...

[goldlock]

either fix your dyslexia or don't reply, snowflake

lol

"Don't you dare use fallout as an example I wanna use the ten year old example" REEEE

[Niffo]

WoW never had much rpg aspects... just right choices and wrong choices. No one wanted the I picked my spec via flavor guy in early wow.

Hell classic boys min max more then retail and their content in no way requires it.

Problem is snowflakes who are terrible at the game want to be seen as special without getting good. They never will be but they will cheer on moronic systems like this in their vain quest to be special.

Thats your experience. I have never played the game untill MoP where I had the feeling I had to compete. It's all gone to shit now. Before that I had the feeling my character was kinda special, now everything is just stat sticks, all classes feel the same, and just endless grinds of competitive M+ garbage.

[goldlock]

Thats your experience. I have never played the game untill MoP where I had the feeling I had to compete. It's all gone to shit now. Before that I had the feeling my character was kinda special, now everything is just stat sticks, all classes feel the same, and just endless grinds of competitive M+ garbage.

Class design was better in mop but we are never going to go back to that with all the alternative progression systems.

What happened was you got old and jaded and are now blindly following promises in a vain attempt of trying to relive something you can't

[Shaetha]

RPGs have nothing to do with cosmetics. RPG are about character progression both in power and in-depth. RPG means Role Playing as in "Playing a specific role"
WoW hasn't had actual character progression for going on the 3rd expansion and you realize subs are also, way way down. WoD had 10 million players
WoW, has ceased all actual power and depth progression in BfA. Unless you call a Paladin shooting random laserbeams from his necklace as character depth.
Covenants are pretty cool. But player power being tied to them is the wrong direction. They should've focused adding new specs for existing classes or alternative play styles within each spec.
I would never call WoW a real RPG any longer unless you are a RPer.

You didn't level from 110-120. You didn't "level" your gear. In your world that didn't happen. Next time, try making a point that doesn't require you to ignore 2 different extremely obvious things that directly contradict your point. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, and arguing against gear giving your character power is pointless on several levels.

Increasing complexity is degenerate. There is a sweet spot that exists, but if there's any lesson to be learned from classic, it's that the gameplay can almost never be too simple, but it can certainly be too complex(Note: Complex does not mean more buttons. It doesn't matter if you mash 4 buttons on CD or 14 buttons on CD. There's no thought beyond priority.) If you have a better way to solve the problem of being forced to add features when too many features is unhealthy for the game, you can suggest it, but it's never not going to happen. It went unchecked for 2 expansions before they realized future-proofing was needed.

Don't make the argument all the things in BFA are pointless either. It's a video game. If you had fun playing it wasn't pointless. If you didn't have fun playing, I am forced to question your decisions in how you spend your free time. Either way, you should look at a game for what it is instead of the dream of ideas that only work in single player games. Single player games can be as complex as you want them to be. They don't need new players constantly joining to combat attrition of players leaving to maintain a playable experience.

[WowIsDead64]

Watching the Preach interview with Ion I find it baffling that the high end community seem to believe that RPGs are only about the story and how you look. Building your character doesn't even seem to factor into it at all for those people.

For me (and a lot of other people I would assume) the most important part of any RPG is to build your character and I haven't played a lot of them where you completely change your entire play style every 5 minutes. A lot of RPGs give you the ability to respec sure but it's at least cumbersome and at the most a pretty lengthy process. In some RPGs starting over and trying out a different build even adds longevity to the game.

I don't understand why they keep on ignoring that part and have gotten it into their heads that not being able to change absolutely everything on the fly is anti RPG.

I'm neutral now, but, I guess, the biggest problem is - in solo RPG you may play any way, you like, and in Online game you depend on other players and they depend on you, so your choices are limited by their public opinion.

[Delekii]

WoW is not an RPG. It's an MMORPG, where your actions and choices impact on your relative value to other people.

[Alkizon]

just right choices and wrong choices

But...

Choice may be wrong for a particular set, but at the same time be very useful for another. What is important in this case (when discussing customization) is overall picture, but not problems of right/wrong private choices
- - - snip - - -
You may be mistaken in choosing a strategy, but this won't necessarily mean fallacy of one/each of its individual elements. Is it clear? They can all be correct, but interfere with each other in this "sequence" ...be incompatible.

let's not raise question of "right choice", it's long, dreary process and we have already done it.

No, RPG is presence of set/constructor for formation "something", subject to certain rules of interaction of its parts. Something may be permanent and something may not, but this isn't its fundamental characteristic.

Presence of both numerical (constructor) and role (story) component is more or less encouraged.

- - - Updated - - -

And also...

Class design was better in mop

but...

Talents' design in MoP somewhat falls outside scope of current system precisely because “talents” were overwhelmingly same within class (with very few exceptions) = not looking at fact that they invaded class area, they were mostly common to the whole class, which means that they performed same as class function in some way. In simple terms, conditionally there were no talents at all in MoP, and everything that could apply to them was given to you by default with choice of spec. Your role in this case was less defined than now... although more than for example in WotLK.

In fact, it's partially lie, it's more about organization of characteristics and conditional balance, BUT some of mechanics they cut a lot (for example hunters, paladins, shamans etc) starting from BC. That is, design as "class" design was literally not the best, but due to work of above systems it looked "whole/complete/workable"... but not better. Is this understandable?

[Soulwind]

In singleplayer RPGs, your choices affect your power, so it's possible to be over or underpowered, and that's fine. Your interaction with the world will often affect the difficulty too, which means the story has a weight. Even your appearance may have an effect, which means the cosmetic, isn't just cosmetic.

Say, you play as an evil character, which turns most factions against you, making the world so dangerous, that you must use stealth everywhere. That's a difficulty that you have imposed on yourself.

But this is an online game. The real gameplay will always involve other players. The story and cosmetics are between each player and the game, but don't have, and must not have an effect on other players. If your choice makes the world unnecessarily harder for you and your party, other players will simply ignore you.


What Blizzard is hoping is that, since the Covenant choice is kind-of-permanent, but its effects will change throughout the expansion, most players will choose based on cosmetics, and the lack of balance will be glanced over, as there are just too many combinations of specs and Covenants for players to determine who to descriminate each patch.

Making up numbers here, if everybody has a seemingly random 10% margin of error because "who knows what Covenant they chose months ago", people won't care about your performance as long as it falls within the average.

And while they may be right, that players won't be able to say "X spec HAS to be Y Covenant" they can still discriminate against the worst combinations, which will be known. And that aside, you as a player will feel like shit when you're underperforming against a very similar character, who just happened to choose a different aesthetic.


It's an unnecessarily problematic choice. There's very little benefit from adding these "lost RPG elements" to the game, and it will divide players to some extent.

[goldlock]

But...
let's not raise question of "right choice", it's long, dreary process and we have already done it.
Presence of both numerical (constructor) and role (story) component is more or less encouraged.

- - - Updated - - -

And also...
but...
In fact, it's partially lie, it's more about organization of characteristics and conditional balance, BUT some of mechanics they cut a lot (for example hunters, paladins, shamans etc) starting from BC. That is, design as "class" design was literally not the best, but due to work of above systems it looked "whole/complete/workable"... but not better. Is this understandable?

To be honest no it isn't... it might just be me missing my morning coffee but I am struggling to understand what you mean.

I suppose it would help if I expressed what I found better as meaning. In earlier versions of wow classes felt at least to me more complete. How well you did came down to how well you played. Yes RNG played its part but it felt much more minor in most situations when you looked at rankings you felt like " yeah I did that".

Now? Well to be honest I never felt like what I did mattered as much as what azerite I could scrounge up. Then what essences I unlocked and then how lucky I got with corruption. It is at the point where if I want to rank my best bet is to go into a pug that can barely kill the boss and let stars carry me. How well I do feels much more invested in how well dices roll rather then how feel I play.

That is why I feel like earlier wow did classes better. It felt like the power came from the class not from external systems outside of the class if that makes any sense.

[Alkizon]

Soulwind
Your interaction with the world will often affect the difficulty too, which means the story has a weight. Even your appearance may have an effect, which means the cosmetic, isn't just cosmetic.

In fact, they conditionally don't give $hit about this restriction, since they broke open world with their cross-realms, phasing and other heresy... BUT! this is also realizable in sandbox condisions (and should work in MMO on basis of this; use mechanisms of individual story progress is one of many elements that turn current game into solo experience)

Сharacter progress shouldn't influence world around him, only his own parameters. Server progress is important, because it's indicator of server's all community progress (same for any representative), and not vice versa. Therefore, if there is situation that character influences world, than it affects the whole world, and not only his own... and become server hero/villain! - that's the only way how it permissible.

all that is needed for this is to create design for progress of whole server, not for individual players, but this requires low element of imposing "path" (which means organizing sequence/availability of quests), taking into account total contribution and of course closed "progressing in its own world" community *once again spitting at cross-realm stuff". But no, you are being driven with whips and kicks in the direction for which devs "spend so much money" and authors "their toilet time"

Influence of "plot on you" is too strong, and therefore minimum of "you on it" back. They tried to branch, but it creates more problems than players interest in such conditions, puerility.

goldlock
I am struggling to understand what you mean.

I spoke purely about MoP, and I think that design of "classes" before it was better (more sutible, kind of simpler, but more thorough). They simply organized system of characteristics better, and brought classes to one common denominator (balance) in MoP which naturally led for system that looked more attractive in eyes of uninitiated players as a whole (not everything was perfect, but more or less), but only system itself, not class' design in particular. That is, I agree on the whole, it was just about that MoP wasn't apotheosis of class design, but apparently I presented this idea too vaguely.

Even WotLK has already cut elements a little, although not very noticeable, mainly in terms of organizing PvE encounters and roles' distributing in them (they thought they were helping, making task easier, and most importantly - more accessible, which didn't go to advantage for the game).

[Amariw]

In singleplayer RPGs, your choices affect your power, so it's possible to be over or underpowered, and that's fine. Your interaction with the world will often affect the difficulty too, which means the story has a weight. Even your appearance may have an effect, which means the cosmetic, isn't just cosmetic.

Say, you play as an evil character, which turns most factions against you, making the world so dangerous, that you must use stealth everywhere. That's a difficulty that you have imposed on yourself.

But this is an online game. The real gameplay will always involve other players. The story and cosmetics are between each player and the game, but don't have, and must not have an effect on other players. If your choice makes the world unnecessarily harder for you and your party, other players will simply ignore you.


What Blizzard is hoping is that, since the Covenant choice is kind-of-permanent, but its effects will change throughout the expansion, most players will choose based on cosmetics, and the lack of balance will be glanced over, as there are just too many combinations of specs and Covenants for players to determine who to descriminate each patch.

Making up numbers here, if everybody has a seemingly random 10% margin of error because "who knows what Covenant they chose months ago", people won't care about your performance as long as it falls within the average.

And while they may be right, that players won't be able to say "X spec HAS to be Y Covenant" they can still discriminate against the worst combinations, which will be known. And that aside, you as a player will feel like shit when you're underperforming against a very similar character, who just happened to choose a different aesthetic.


It's an unnecessarily problematic choice. There's very little benefit from adding these "lost RPG elements" to the game, and it will divide players to some extent.

Well said. Non mutable power choices fit less competitive MMOs and single players. It doesn't fit wow and thats why blizz gave dual specc and later easy respeccs all the way since wrath. The game can use mor rpg choices, but only if they remain story and cosmetics. Rpg power choices simply dont fit wow.

[Echocho]

WoW is not an RPG. It's an MMORPG, where your actions and choices impact on your relative value to other people.

Blizzard says it's a RPG. I think they're more entitled than anyone to say what kind of a game it is.

[docterfreeze]

Because we have a lot of delusional narcissists that think copying icy veins and getting a server third mythic kill makes them esports gods.

hahaha nice

[Evaddon]

It means alot of things, just matters what scale are you looking at here in terms of RPG

[klogaroth]

Blizzard says it's a RPG. I think they're more entitled than anyone to say what kind of a game it is.

Ok, so why isn't it exploding when I fire it?

Explosives aside, Blizzard do not describe WoW solely as an RPG.

Their exact words from page 12 of the original game manual: "World of Wacraft is a massively-multiplayer online role-playing game."

They do not state the game genre at all anywhere on the outside of the box.

Those words at the start, the massively-multiplayer - that matters. You may claim they don't matter, but they are hugely important. If I tell you a game is a shooter, the words that come before that make a big difference as to what sort of game you are buying. Is it a side-scrolling shooter, or a first person shooter? If I sell you a strategy game, is it a turn based strategy, or a real time strategy? Those differences matter, because you're getting a very different game.

It's why WoW being specifically an MMORPG, and even more specifically a theme park MMORPG is relevant. So many things can be attached to RPG to produce wildly different results, and claiming that every design that works in any type of RPG works for all games where you can slap RPG somewhere in the title is as ludricrous as asking why there's no first person mode in R-Type.

[SirBeef]

No, they got rid of the old talent trees because they were too lazy to keep adding rows and fix the boring talents in the system. The WotLK DK trees are what every class should have looked like going forward. Instead they sucked all the life out of classes and mimicked diablo 3, which was already being lambasted for it's absurdly shallow systems compared to its predecessor.

Wrong they got rid if them in favor of a more flexible system with more, or potentially more variation. The old trees, no matter how you sliced them were all cookie cutters. Sure, while people will always gravitate towards what "pros" tell them to do, build variety is more diverse with many options being viable. Had nothing to do with being lazy.

- - - Updated - - -

Because we have a lot of delusional narcissists that think copying icy veins and getting a server third mythic kill makes them esports gods.

Don't forget to add their server 3rd is typically world 1200. Which I contend that if they played how they wanted, they'd be in the same position.

[goldlock]

Wrong they got rid if them in favor of a more flexible system with more, or potentially more variation. The old trees, no matter how you sliced them were all cookie cutters. Sure, while people will always gravitate towards what "pros" tell them to do, build variety is more diverse with many options being viable. Had nothing to do with being lazy.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't forget to add their server 3rd is typically world 1200. Which I contend that if they played how they wanted, they'd be in the same position.

They could make the same argument to get rid of the current talent trees as they did the old ones... Also raiding in mythic doesn't really work on the do what you want mantra. Sure you have SOME wiggle room but you still need to be roughly 90% optimum give or a take a bit. You are not gonna see a mythic raid killing z'noth with multiple dead specs.