Remove Borrowed power

[Shakana]

Missing legendaries as gear - not legion legendaries - as before. Something that significantly can make our characters better, that are not actual borrowed power and that you see abilities of it as top damage instead of your class abilities and stats and making your stats higher and better, and top abilities are from your own character's class spells.

[Elias01]

Interesting take on it since most people actually thought wod and mop was the high point for wow classes.

WoD was shit on many other areas

And those people are completly clueless. Class desing in mop was joke. Tehre was no identity to any class. Everybody could do anything thats why you see rogue saying og my rogue felt best in mop. Yes your rogue felt best in mop becouse he could do absolutly everything as rest of classes which made playing classes absoltuly boring becouse there was no difference in playing mage vs warlock. Absolutly 0.

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Literally everyone.



No it won't. That simply isn't true at all.

Just because blizzard said that once doesn't mean it's true, it's just what they want players to think.

Sorry to disapoint you but majority of players actualy like borrowed power systems becouse it makes world content relevant and give all those casual lot of content to do. Withtou it we would have another 2.0 WoD where 70% of playerbase would quit of having nothing to do.

[docterfreeze]

And those people are completly clueless. Class desing in mop was joke. Tehre was no identity to any class. Everybody could do anything thats why you see rogue saying og my rogue felt best in mop. Yes your rogue felt best in mop becouse he could do absolutly everything as rest of classes which made playing classes absoltuly boring becouse there was no difference in playing mage vs warlock. Absolutly 0.

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Sorry to disapoint you but majority of players actualy like borrowed power systems becouse it makes world content relevant and give all those casual lot of content to do. Withtou it we would have another 2.0 WoD where 70% of playerbase would quit of having nothing to do.

Being extremely capable was a big reason why people liked MoP classes, and you're just wrong about classes having no identity. Which spell had mages transforming into a demon? What mage spec had a 3 second hard cast that hit like a train? Which mage spec rotted you to death? You don't need to handicap classes and ration out power to make them feel different.

Also i'm pretty sure they can make world content relevant without temporary abilities.

[rrayy]

Literally everyone.

UNless you know every player in the game, this is factually unprovable. In fact, I can prove you are wrong since I am fine with borrowed power and thought it was better when we had it. So, no, literally everyone does not agree with you.

[Jazzhands]

If you would care to use your brain power just a little bit more, you would realize how BIG is the difference between GEAR PROGRESSION and BORROWED POWER.

We had gear progression since very first day of World of Warcraft.

And "borrowed power" since very first day of WOW: Legion.

Gear increases your STATS ONLY.

Borrowed power system changes your WHOLE CLASS DESIGN!
Just TRY playing ANY class with full 475+ ilvl epic gear and bis BORROWED POWERS (Azerite gear, essences, corruptions) and compare it to 475 ilvl full epic geared char WITHOUT BORROWED POWERS.

And only THEN you will see the difference.

Also "Borrowed power" was used very first time by Blizzard. When they introduced artifact weapons back in Legion days.
They said that Artifacts are our "borrowed powers" which we use to defeat powerful demons.

Can't you see the difference now?

Nope. They're both gear that we progress, borrowed power is just an extension of gear with more depth so we actually get potentially interesting systems instead of the same boring "gear progression" we've had for 16 years. Our stats that we spent oh so much time progressing reset every expansion, just like how our borrowed powers go away. We lose out massive amounts of haste/crit/mastery ect, essentially invalidating everything we did to progress our gear in the previous expansion, which is often people's biggest gripe about "borrowed powers".

They're the same thing with slightly different names and execution, that's all. They're both gear, that you progress, that gets replaced eventually, one just happens because of lore and game play reasons, the other happens "naturally" because Blizzard makes old gear invalid through numbers. I really fail to see how that's different unless head canon is of the highest importance to you.

Also, gear can do more than increase stats, certain tier bonuses were so good they were nearly class changing. The stats or bonuses have absolutely nothing to do whether something is a borrowed power or not. Borrowed power also doesn't always change class design, my azerite traits, essences, and corruptions change almost nothing about my Ret paladin, it plays the exact same as without them, just smaller numbers.

[Lefrog]

Gear being "borrowed power" only applies to gear you can no longer equip, removed from game, or that they've purposely broken past a certain level because they made it scale(usually percentage based stuff). You can still equip and use the majority of gear from any WoW expac...there is just better out there the same way that not all azerite essences were created equal for your spec, or that the new ones released with 8.3 might be better than 8.2.

OT: I would have loved to see them keep some borrowed powers and just scaled them back. This could add a level of growing complexity/abilities that could let us continue our RPG elements.

Your class hall dude at end of Legion: "You have mastered the ways of [insert class] and learned to draw the most out of your weapon. While you no longer have [insert artifact weapon], I am confident you will be able to apply your knowledge to some lesser degree."
Effect: All MH weapons moving forward have a mini talent tree depending on quality. Green with 1 nodes 0 branch (1 active slots), Rare with 3 nodes 1 branch (2 active slots), and Epics with 7 nodes 3 branches (3 active slots) for example. They could keep the talent tree the same based on weapon type for simplicity and BiS gearing ease. Every new expac or tier could have new trees to play with to keep things fresh.

Magni at end of BFA: "Azeroth thanks ye. Her heart has been returned to her, but she would like you to keep this sliver. Keep it close to you and you shall be able to tap into some of her power, no matter where you go"
Effect: All neck pieces moving forward have 1 azerite essence slot (Major). All essence numbers can be re-tuned to a lower power level if don't want them to impact new tiers as much. They can release 1 or 2 new ones every tier as well if they wanted.

[tru]

Its just shocking how they said no big class reworks going into SL but yet they are doing SOOOO much for these new systems that will be gone in 2 years. I just don't understand it anymore. Fix base kits / redo them and work on specs that scale really bad compared to others. Make something fun while listening to feedback and they woulda saved a shit ton of dev time that could have went to something else vs heres 3-4 (or more?) new stytems to learn and blah blah. Hate it or love it and its gone in 10.0.. it just doesnt make sense. I really had hoped the system would have died with Legion but whatever.

[Elias01]

Being extremely capable was a big reason why people liked MoP classes, and you're just wrong about classes having no identity. Which spell had mages transforming into a demon? What mage spec had a 3 second hard cast that hit like a train? Which mage spec rotted you to death? You don't need to handicap classes and ration out power to make them feel different.

Also i'm pretty sure they can make world content relevant without temporary abilities.

No classes had no identity. Everybody had everything only thing what was changing was theme of spells.

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Its just shocking how they said no big class reworks going into SL but yet they are doing SOOOO much for these new systems that will be gone in 2 years. I just don't understand it anymore. Fix base kits / redo them and work on specs that scale really bad compared to others. Make something fun while listening to feedback and they woulda saved a shit ton of dev time that could have went to something else vs heres 3-4 (or more?) new stytems to learn and blah blah. Hate it or love it and its gone in 10.0.. it just doesnt make sense. I really had hoped the system would have died with Legion but whatever.

There is nothint to fix classes work jsut fine.

[Palapop]

Nope. They're both gear that we progress, borrowed power is just an extension of gear with more depth so we actually get potentially interesting systems instead of the same boring "gear progression" we've had for 16 years. Our stats that we spent oh so much time progressing reset every expansion, just like how our borrowed powers go away. We lose out massive amounts of haste/crit/mastery ect, essentially invalidating everything we did to progress our gear in the previous expansion, which is often people's biggest gripe about "borrowed powers".

They're the same thing with slightly different names and execution, that's all. They're both gear, that you progress, that gets replaced eventually, one just happens because of lore and game play reasons, the other happens "naturally" because Blizzard makes old gear invalid through numbers. I really fail to see how that's different unless head canon is of the highest importance to you.

Also, gear can do more than increase stats, certain tier bonuses were so good they were nearly class changing. The stats or bonuses have absolutely nothing to do whether something is a borrowed power or not. Borrowed power also doesn't always change class design, my azerite traits, essences, and corruptions change almost nothing about my Ret paladin, it plays the exact same as without them, just smaller numbers.

I give up.

You just fail to see the difference between having extra % haste and extra ABILITIES TO USE.


I bet you believe that the Earth is flat too.

[Elias01]

I give up.

You just fail to see the difference between having extra % haste and extra ABILITIES TO USE.


I bet you believe that the Earth is flat too.

And what foes those abilities do? oh yeash more dmg. What does gear do? Yeah more dmg.

[Palapop]

And what foes those abilities do? oh yeash more dmg. What does gear do? Yeah more dmg.

EXTRA ABILITIES!!!!

Gear does more power.

BORROWED POWER ADDS EXTRA ABILITIES/SPELLS WHICH ARE REQUIRED FOR GAMEPLAY!

And gear DOES NOT req any sort of "power/knowledge" grind.

Borrowed power DOES!

[docterfreeze]

No classes had no identity. Everybody had everything only thing what was changing was theme of spells.

Themes, playstyles, feel, that all should be enough to make classes have unique identities. No need to handicap them just so you can feel special. I for one get great enjoyment from being able to do things like 1v2+ because I am good, not just because the class I play allows it.

[cocomen2]

Wrong. Borrowed power is a good thing. Most of the people I know like the idea. It gives meaning to the new expansions without overbloating classes.

Nice try, ION.

[Jawless Jones]

Borrowed power is a band-aid for bad class design in alpha/beta, change my mind _{you cant}

[Jazzhands]

I give up.

You just fail to see the difference between having extra % haste and extra ABILITIES TO USE.


I bet you believe that the Earth is flat too.

I don't fail to see the difference between a passive stat and an activated ability at all, it's just that those aren't deciding factors into whether something is "borrowed power" or not like you seem to think. HoA and Artifacts are called "borrowed power" because that's what Blizzard called them that, that's it. They wanted some way to distinguish them for the brain dead players who didn't understand why they had to go away.

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Borrowed power is a band-aid for bad class design in alpha/beta, change my mind _{you cant}

While you're not entirely wrong, they allow Blizzard to add more in-depth systems while avoiding bloat. It's a tool to do a lot of things, band-aiding included.

[Bigcountry11782]

As a whole i can't stand it.Now in legion the artifact weapons worked for me because it actually changed the way i played.In bfa the neck the corruption just don't do anything you can interact with for the most part.Nothing sucks worse than building this power up over the course of 2 years or more to just have it ripped away at the end.Though this is why the artifacts left a sour taste in the mouth was for the reason i just talked about.At the end of legion i just felt like someone stole power from me and through most of BFA that is what it felt like.

I feel like the borrowed power works on paper but in game play it just doesn't.Sadly blizzard seems to want to continue this as from what i can tell it is the lazy way they can add power to use and not have to work on each individual class and increase the power of the classes that way.

[ClassicPeon]

I've yet to see anyone explaining how you would get new abilities incorporated into your rotation each expansion without getting completely ability bloated after a while.

Whats people idea to fix this?

I mean i'm all for removing borrowed power but do you want to play the exact same spec each expansion then?

[Elias01]

EXTRA ABILITIES!!!!

Gear does more power.

BORROWED POWER ADDS EXTRA ABILITIES/SPELLS WHICH ARE REQUIRED FOR GAMEPLAY!

And gear DOES NOT req any sort of "power/knowledge" grind.

Borrowed power DOES!

Dmg is also reqaured for gameplay. Or you telling me we can beat mythic raids in full LFR gear? I dont think so. Yes and gear do req grind. You go into dungeon to grind gear so you can do more dmg. Tell me again how pressing essence button what literaly does nothing but flat our dmg for period of time somehow impacts class gameplay. Oh wait it doesnt. You still doeing your class rotaion and here and there press extra button to do more dmg or healing.

You just see extra ability and you instanly asume its somwhow compltly different from gear when in fact its not. From game desing standpoint its exact same thing as gear it gives you more power.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I've yet to see anyone explaining how you would get new abilities incorporated into your rotation each expansion without getting completely ability bloated after a while.

Whats people idea to fix this?

I mean i'm all for removing borrowed power but do you want to play the exact same spec each expansion then?

The solution is simple: Effort.
Obviously blizzard can't add a new row of talents every 2 years for 40 years and not look back at the rest of the class. But no one is expecting them to either. Blizzard already did it for years and it had worked until they gave up in legion, it's called overhauls and design passes. They could easily add a new row of talents per expansion, even if it's just the most interesting borrowed power stuff from the last. Once it gets to the point where it's a bit too much they could easily trim down the "trees" every couple of years (on average 6-8, realistically minor adjustments regularily every 1-2) and kill redundant or oudated abilities and make neccessary ones baseline. Alot of talent effects should easily be part of the base tool kit to begin with, as everyone picking the same talent to gain an extra charge of a core ability is never going to be fun when the alternative is an active ability. The violently exploding pestilent pustules should always damage other targets nearby, even without a talent. My basic aoe spender shouldn't be locked behind a talent either, neither should the only viable playstyle require 80% of talents to stay the exact same for 4 years, because the alternative is a suicidal gimmik build that realistically comes out 20% less.

Currently Blizzard is sticking their fingers in their ears and loudly shout "lalala" whenever the topic of base class issues comes up, because they consider them to be done, even when they only work because of random borrowed powers and are at the mercy of latest intern to remember to give them back next expansion after another grind. It's not like this system is done cleverly either, it's rather blatantly obvious and people are wising up to it.

Once the basic design paradigm has been rectified you could go as far as front loading actual character progression again, but that is a different topic and one that I don't even subscribe to: I frankly don't have issues with us attaining new abilities and modifications to existing ones through the systems of the expansion; it would be an actual RPG mechanic to work for your <Metor of Absolute Doom> spell instead of just knowing it all of a sudden. I and many others just don't see the rather transparent goal of having us grind for the same shit each expansion again as particularily noble. Not all borrowed power is equally bad either, artefact weapons and legiondaries, were, at least as far as thematic relevance goes, pretty decent. BfA's azerite powers and essences where extremely egregious in that regard as they were just generic yellow-blue piss beams, bubbles and puddles that have nothing to do with your class and half of them were entirely passive on top of it. SL so far in that regard shapes up to be at least somewhere in the middle with this.

[ClassicPeon]

The solution is simple: Effort.
Obviously blizzard can't add a new row of talents every 2 years for 40 years and not look back at the rest of the class. But no one is expecting them to either. Blizzard already did it for years and it had worked until they gave up in legion, it's called overhauls and design passes. They could easily add a new row of talents per expansion, even if it's just the most interesting borrowed power stuff from the last. Once it gets to the point where it's a bit too much they could easily trim down the "trees" every couple of years (on average 6-8, realistically minor adjustments regularily every 1-2) and kill redundant or oudated abilities and make neccessary ones baseline. Alot of talent effects should easily be part of the base tool kit to begin with, as everyone picking the same talent to gain an extra charge of a core ability is never going to be fun when the alternative is an active ability. The violently exploding pestilent pustules should always damage other targets nearby, even without a talent. My basic aoe spender shouldn't be locked behind a talent either, neither should the only viable playstyle require 80% of talents to stay the exact same for 4 years, because the alternative is a suicidal gimmik build that realistically comes out 20% less.

Currently Blizzard is sticking their fingers in their ears and loudly shout "lalala" whenever the topic of base class issues comes up, because they consider them to be done, even when they only work because of random borrowed powers and are at the mercy of latest intern to remember to give them back next expansion after another grind. It's not like this system is done cleverly either, it's rather blatantly obvious and people are wising up to it.

Once the basic design paradigm has been rectified you could go as far as front loading actual character progression again, but that is a different topic and one that I don't even subscribe to: I frankly don't have issues with us attaining new abilities and modifications to existing ones through the systems of the expansion; it would be an actual RPG mechanic to work for your <Metor of Absolute Doom> spell instead of just knowing it all of a sudden. I and many others just don't see the rather transparent goal of having us grind for the same shit each expansion again as particularily noble. Not all borrowed power is equally bad either, artefact weapons and legiondaries, were, at least as far as thematic relevance goes, pretty decent. BfA's azerite powers and essences where extremely egregious in that regard as they were just generic yellow-blue piss beams, bubbles and puddles that have nothing to do with your class and half of them were entirely passive on top of it. SL so far in that regard shapes up to be at least somewhere in the middle with this.

I read part of it, i'm obviously not going to read all of it.

Reiterating classes is just as much a point of contention as borrowed power is. The community seems to be devided into many different opinions on this subject.

The solution is by no means simple.

Adding a 5% buff to mortal strike from a new talent row isnt going to cut it for a new expansion anymore. People expect more then that.