Do people actually believe that RPG means story and cosmetic only?

[Zenfoldor]

Here's my only issue. In a pen and paper rpg, or even in a console rpg, the choices I make would likely be permanent. They may not be changeable until deep into the game, if at all. I may need to start an entire new playthrough to swap that choice I made in the first 10 minutes(I'm looking at you console JRPGs, lol).

However, those choices are defined.

In WoW, the "choices" are moving targets, and will be redefined as soon as a hotfix can be implemented. Naturally, my "choice" will always be the most OP option, and thus subjected to likely the quickest and most severe redefinitions, aka a nerf.

With the ever-changing state of the game, I am not really making a choice, just a guess. An RPG is about meaningful choices, not about a guessing game, so that's my only issue with it.

If they have the courage to make us make a choice, then also have the courage to make one of those choices wrong. I'd like to see them not rebalance them, just leave the meta the meta. Then, I think the complaining would be coming from the other side of this argument.

[exochaft]

They could make the same argument to get rid of the current talent trees as they did the old ones... Also raiding in mythic doesn't really work on the do what you want mantra. Sure you have SOME wiggle room but you still need to be roughly 90% optimum give or a take a bit. You are not gonna see a mythic raid killing z'noth with multiple dead specs.

Well, the trick is to get everything relatively close to where content can be feasibly cleared with a reasonable comp. While you can clear mythic raids with 'dead specs' (my guild used to do that with a couple just because we had the skill to do it), I think what's more dangerous is where specs/classes/abilities are near-mandatory in almost every scenario. This works in tandem with the content design to make such systems works, as Blizz has notoriously been bad at making content that compliments certain abilities/classes/specs too well across the board, to the point where content such as mythic raid encounters are trivialized due to such compliments.

For example, this is why Blizz has been trying to design raid mechanics to where immunities don't work as of late, because immunities tend to heavily trivialize mechanics and/or the need for strategy and planning. Tomb of Sargeras as jokingly referred to Tomb of Soaking because of how many soaking mechanics were prevalent in the entire raid, making immunities so good where you felt insanely punished if you didn't stack immunities. Even with mythic N'zoth, the encounter feels and plays out completely different if you have 10 immunities (or more) versus only a handful, as damage/sanity management is trivialized with immunities. What this sort of scenario creates is that classes with immunities are too good to pass up, as almost any other utility/benefit to bringing a non-immunity class (even if situationally good) is not worth bringing. If you also make classes/specs that have mandatory abilities also have insanely good DPS on these encounters compared to the non-immunity classes... well, it's fairly obvious what will happen.

Anyways, if Blizz wants to make more power-based RPG elements, they're going to have to balance them to where they're all meh or all powerful in niche areas. You can't have a choice where one answer is good in every scenario by a mile while the others are niche and can't compete in any scenario with the all-rounder BiS.

[goldlock]

Well, the trick is to get everything relatively close to where content can be feasibly cleared with a reasonable comp. While you can clear mythic raids with 'dead specs' (my guild used to do that with a couple just because we had the skill to do it), I think what's more dangerous is where specs/classes/abilities are near-mandatory in almost every scenario. This works in tandem with the content design to make such systems works, as Blizz has notoriously been bad at making content that compliments certain abilities/classes/specs too well across the board, to the point where content such as mythic raid encounters are trivialized due to such compliments.

For example, this is why Blizz has been trying to design raid mechanics to where immunities don't work as of late, because immunities tend to heavily trivialize mechanics and/or the need for strategy and planning. Tomb of Sargeras as jokingly referred to Tomb of Soaking because of how many soaking mechanics were prevalent in the entire raid, making immunities so good where you felt insanely punished if you didn't stack immunities. Even with mythic N'zoth, the encounter feels and plays out completely different if you have 10 immunities (or more) versus only a handful, as damage/sanity management is trivialized with immunities. What this sort of scenario creates is that classes with immunities are too good to pass up, as almost any other utility/benefit to bringing a non-immunity class (even if situationally good) is not worth bringing. If you also make classes/specs that have mandatory abilities also have insanely good DPS on these encounters compared to the non-immunity classes... well, it's fairly obvious what will happen.

Anyways, if Blizz wants to make more power-based RPG elements, they're going to have to balance them to where they're all meh or all powerful in niche areas. You can't have a choice where one answer is good in every scenario by a mile while the others are niche and can't compete in any scenario with the all-rounder BiS.

The problem I see is that blizzard can't really help themselves when it comes to tuning. They want choices to matter then they make something absurdly powerful for its game play. Take necro lords. They can immune cc and I have no idea how you balance that with other covenants. My worry is that blizzard will tune raids around having the bis of everything. Much like z'noth wasn't killable without near perfect corruptions.

[DemonDays]

Wrong they got rid if them in favor of a more flexible system with more, or potentially more variation. The old trees, no matter how you sliced them were all cookie cutters. Sure, while people will always gravitate towards what "pros" tell them to do, build variety is more diverse with many options being viable. Had nothing to do with being lazy.

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Don't forget to add their server 3rd is typically world 1200. Which I contend that if they played how they wanted, they'd be in the same position.

What a laughable claim.

Build variety is not more diverse. There are mandatory talents on every single row for most specs. They have also laughably added old baseline abilities into talent trees.

Want your class to play like it did before? Better grab that previously baseline ability from the talent tree you sucker!



The new talent trees are exactly the same as the old ones. "Illusion of choice".





Also - We just went an entire TWO YEAR expansion cycle without a single tuning pass on under or over performing talents.

Care to comment champ?

[MoanaLisa]

An RPG is a lot more than how you look and story. Jesus, some people....

The better question is whether or not WoW is really an RPG. I think it is but it just barely makes it over the line since your character's story and history are largely irrelevant to the game.

In the worst cases, someone's bright idea of a "class fantasy" may totally overwrite what you view as your character's history and make them unrecognizable. That's simply unacceptable in an RPG.

[SirBeef]

What a laughable claim.

Build variety is not more diverse. There are mandatory talents on every single row for most specs. They have also laughably added old baseline abilities into talent trees.

Want your class to play like it did before? Better grab that previously baseline ability from the talent tree you sucker!



The new talent trees are exactly the same as the old ones. "Illusion of choice".





Also - We just went an entire TWO YEAR expansion cycle without a single tuning pass on under or over performing talents.

Care to comment champ?

First off tanks before MoP all had the same talents, same with healers, DPS had minor variances for the most part. Since MoP, I've seen more non optimal talent choices and use them myself because for the most part, I have more fun with certain talents over the "mandatory" ones.

Rarely will every row have one that completely outshines, yes, they exist, but typically, for the classes I've raided with, most of the time the utility, defensive, and big talents are choose what you want.

So it's just your anecdotal evidence vs mine at this point. I know I choose what I want and some of the talents are the top ones and others not so much. And I've seen it in PuGs and random BGs more so than I have pre MoP.

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They could make the same argument to get rid of the current talent trees as they did the old ones... Also raiding in mythic doesn't really work on the do what you want mantra. Sure you have SOME wiggle room but you still need to be roughly 90% optimum give or a take a bit. You are not gonna see a mythic raid killing z'noth with multiple dead specs.

There's a reason we haven't killed it yet and we know. Few more Cape levels, few more corruptions, some more gear and we might get it. But then it's no biggie if we don't. We just get together, drink and have fun. We stopped worrying about that shit back in Cata becausw it was just too much BS and time.

[Swnem]

So, i am not sure i agree.

I think, yes gaining power is part of the RPG journey. But, the WoW end-game systems don't feel like an RPG to me. My character stopped growing since what? Pandaria? When they stopped adding new abilities for leveling up. These ephemeral and temporary stat boosts are not what i consider character growth in an RPG. They are just things to grind to make the character gain some temporary power that he loses at the end of the xpac and gain again in the next one. In truth, there is no more growth. There is the illusion of growth. It doesn't feel satisfying to me. It feels more like a side-grade than an upgrade.

As for the choice issue. Well, it's difficult to explain, but i don't like it. Choosing which class i want to play, be it melee, be it the kind of magic they wield at the beginning of the journey is a fun decision. A decision of which temporary traits i get at the beginning of the expansion is cumber some to me. It's a headache and most of all i am afraid of making a terrible mistake that won't let me play my character efficiently. So, i don't like these decisions. It's more like traps were thrown in front of me and i don't know which ones to avoid.
If the choice was only which covenant theme i would pick and transmog/mount i get, it is a decision i can make with joy, not afraid of what it might entail down the line except for what i see in front of me. I would be way happier if the choice was only the covenant we get and have all the power systems scrapped in favor of simply adding more in the class systems. New ability learned by the trainer, new talent row. That would feel like growth.

[DemonDays]

First off tanks before MoP all had the same talents, same with healers, DPS had minor variances for the most part. Since MoP, I've seen more non optimal talent choices and use them myself because for the most part, I have more fun with certain talents over the "mandatory" ones.

Rarely will every row have one that completely outshines, yes, they exist, but typically, for the classes I've raided with, most of the time the utility, defensive, and big talents are choose what you want.

So it's just your anecdotal evidence vs mine at this point. I know I choose what I want and some of the talents are the top ones and others not so much. And I've seen it in PuGs and random BGs more so than I have pre MoP.

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There's a reason we haven't killed it yet and we know. Few more Cape levels, few more corruptions, some more gear and we might get it. But then it's no biggie if we don't. We just get together, drink and have fun. We stopped worrying about that shit back in Cata becausw it was just too much BS and time.

Here's some small sample size data for you. Which is more than you've got.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ts/demonhunter


Also very cute of you to mention Talents in MoP. Because they were much better back then. Before they started shoving previously baseline abilities into the trees. Also they actually gave a shit about balancing back then, so rows were actually competitive.

[Palapop]

"WOD had 10 million players"
At launch maybe, and then everyone realized it was shit and left. The expansion was over in six months.

WOD was 10x better compared to BFA tho.


But BFA is PRETTIER.

[plz delete account]

WOD was 10x better compared to BFA tho.


But BFA is PRETTIER.

You mean the same WOD with over 50% of it's content being cut before beta was halfway over?

[Palapop]

You mean the same WOD with over 50% of it's content being cut before beta was halfway over?

Yep.

Classes were 1000000x more enjoyable to play.

And we didn't have to grind ANY sort of "borrowed power" system 24/7.


Having LOW/POOR amount of GOOD content (WOD) is not the same as having VAST amount of BAD QUALITY content (BFA)

[goldlock]

First off tanks before MoP all had the same talents, same with healers, DPS had minor variances for the most part. Since MoP, I've seen more non optimal talent choices and use them myself because for the most part, I have more fun with certain talents over the "mandatory" ones.

Rarely will every row have one that completely outshines, yes, they exist, but typically, for the classes I've raided with, most of the time the utility, defensive, and big talents are choose what you want.

So it's just your anecdotal evidence vs mine at this point. I know I choose what I want and some of the talents are the top ones and others not so much. And I've seen it in PuGs and random BGs more so than I have pre MoP.

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There's a reason we haven't killed it yet and we know. Few more Cape levels, few more corruptions, some more gear and we might get it. But then it's no biggie if we don't. We just get together, drink and have fun. We stopped worrying about that shit back in Cata becausw it was just too much BS and time.

That is great. Now can you kindly take a step back and let those who do care about it worry about it?

I never get why the " Well i don't care so why should you crowd" feels compelled to pipe up. No one cares if you are fine waiting for the prepatch nerf but those who do enjoy progressing mythic in a reasonable time would rather not see every system gimped.

This idea of locking players into a choice then fucking with the balance after they are locked in is asinine. The whole you need multiple characters to do multiple highend content is a pain in the ass.

If a system doesn't provide more benefits then drawbacks it should be scrapped rather then being azerite armor...

[plz delete account]

Yep.

Classes were 1000000x more enjoyable to play.

And we didn't have to grind ANY sort of "borrowed power" system 24/7.


Having LOW/POOR amount of GOOD content (WOD) is not the same as having VAST amount of BAD QUALITY content (BFA)

Ummm, Draenor Perks existed.
And having nothing to do with "good class design" is about the same as lots to do with "bad class design"

[Delekii]

Blizzard says it's a RPG. I think they're more entitled than anyone to say what kind of a game it is.

They can say what they like; what it is is defined by its contents. What you're saying is akin to a companing selling a car and calling it an apple; a car is a car, whatever its creator calls it. If they want to call it an apple, they need to make it small, round and crunchy.

[Specialka]

They can say what they like; what it is is defined by its contents. What you're saying is akin to a companing selling a car and calling it an apple; a car is a car, whatever its creator calls it. If they want to call it an apple, they need to make it small, round and crunchy.

And it is not like they were so sure that getting Legiondairies through RNG was such a great idea, they were so sure that Azerite Armor was such a good designed system. We could go on a while like that. At the end of the day, I do not really care what Blizzard thinks that Wow is.

[Geckoo]

And it is not like they were so sure that getting Legiondairies through RNG was such a great idea, they were so sure that Azerite Armor was such a good designed system. We could go on a while like that. At the end of the day, I do not really care what Blizzard thinks that Wow is.

I can understand them wanting to go on a certain direction even if i don't like it, because normally there is a reason that i can understand, i am more than capable of looking at the bigger picture and accepting that the game can be better with a change i don't initially like.

But this time i can't understand their justification. If i look at the bigger picture i can see what they are trying to fix, i can even agree that there is a problem that should at least be toned down, but i just don't see how making punitive systems that restrict character customization in arbitrary ways is going to fix that problem.

Honestly, i don't even know what the term RPG has to do with any of this. It has nothing to do with bringing back RPG elements or how important meaningful choices should be, that's just lawyer talk. This is all about developers hoping that by locking players to a series of choices they'll be less inclined to reject other players that made a different set of choices. Is about adding layers and layers of complexity hoping that at some point players will no longer care about how they perform. It's a noble but unrealistic goal, they will fail and change those systems eventually when they realize that they are sacrificing fun to try to achieve the impossible. Mostly because sacrificing fun eventually translates into sacrificing customers that are willing to pay for your game.

They are trying to fix a social issue with character power systems when they should be looking at ways to improve the social systems.

[SirBeef]

Here's some small sample size data for you. Which is more than you've got.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve...ts/demonhunter


Also very cute of you to mention Talents in MoP. Because they were much better back then. Before they started shoving previously baseline abilities into the trees. Also they actually gave a shit about balancing back then, so rows were actually competitive.

Hrm I see 3 must have talents out of 7 rows. Seems pretty far form having to choose 7 must haves as you suggested. I do recall saying each row will have one that outshines the others being the must haves. And you just proved my point champ.

[goldlock]

Hrm I see 3 must have talents out of 7 rows. Seems pretty far form having to choose 7 must haves as you suggested. I do recall saying each row will have one that outshines the others being the must haves. And you just proved my point champ.

Old talents were following a cookie cutter build new talents are counting how many targets are in the fight.

Pretending either are big decisions is disingenuous.

Covenants are just the passives you normally would have gotten backed into your character in a pre legion expansion but instead will be a balancing nightmare in sl.

[SirBeef]

Old talents were following a cookie cutter build new talents are counting how many targets are in the fight.

Pretending either are big decisions is disingenuous.

Covenants are just the passives you normally would have gotten backed into your character in a pre legion expansion but instead will be a balancing nightmare in sl.

Never claimed they were big decisions. Just there is more build variety as opposed to everyone having the exact same. The link provided proves that not all talents ate must haves, only 3 out of 21 are overwhelmingly unanimous choices with 4 rows having a nice variety.

But as I said, there will always a best choice, but before the new system you had very little flexibility. Today you have more.

[Krakan]

Never claimed they were big decisions. Just there is more build variety as opposed to everyone having the exact same. The link provided proves that not all talents ate must haves, only 3 out of 21 are overwhelmingly unanimous choices with 4 rows having a nice variety.

But as I said, there will always a best choice, but before the new system you had very little flexibility. Today you have more.

I would disagree looking at logs if nothing else... you don't see any disparity in content that matters beyond maybe a few of the movement and survivability rows .