Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[wokforth]

First, hes Medical expertise is just that, Medical. It has no relevance on his opinion on the social aspect of school. Second, your mindset is wrong. You're essentially saying "well, you failed to contain it. May as well dump this bucket of gasoline on it since its already a large fire anyway right?" No. You don't add fuel to the fire. No one said the spread would be contained due to closing schools.

The key factor is not adding even more to it. You want to combat it? Well, here's a suggestion, don't open up more things! Close down places. Its not rocket science. Every other country that tried it is seeing far reduced spikes. The US is just dumb and decided Eh, lets not care enough to even get a national response to this.

It's clear from the above that education was never that important to you, so, here are some reasons why closing down schools is bad:

https: //en.unesco.org/covid19/educationresponse/consequences

School closures carry high social and economic costs for people across communities. Their impact however is particularly severe for the most vulnerable and marginalized boys and girls and their families. The resulting disruptions exacerbate already existing disparities within the education system but also in other aspects of their lives. These include:

• Interrupted learning: Schooling provides essential learning and when schools close, children and youth are deprived opportunities for growth and development. The disadvantages are disproportionate for under-privileged learners who tend to have fewer educational opportunities beyond school.
• Poor nutrition: Many children and youth rely on free or discounted meals provided at schools for food and healthy nutrition. When schools close, nutrition is compromised.
• Confusion and stress for teachers: When schools close, especially unexpectedly and for unknown durations, teachers are often unsure of their obligations and how to maintain connections with students to support learning. Transitions to distance learning platforms tend to be messy and frustrating, even in the best circumstances. In many contexts, school closures lead to furloughs or separations for teachers.
• Parents unprepared for distance and home schooling: When schools close, parents are often asked to facilitate the learning of children at home and can struggle to perform this task. This is especially true for parents with limited education and resources.
• Challenges creating, maintaining, and improving distance learning: Demand for distance learning skyrockets when schools close and often overwhelms existing portals to remote education. Moving learning from classrooms to homes at scale and in a hurry presents enormous challenges, both human and technical.
• Gaps in childcare: In the absence of alternative options, working parents often leave children alone when schools close and this can lead to risky behaviours, including increased influence of peer pressure and substance abuse.
• High economic costs: Working parents are more likely to miss work when schools close in order to take care of their children. This results in wage loss and tend to negatively impact productivity.
• Unintended strain on health-care systems: Health-care workers with children cannot easily attend work because of childcare obligations that result from school closures. This means that many medical professionals are not at the facilities where they are most needed during a health crisis.
• Increased pressure on schools and school systems that remain open: Localized school closures place burdens on schools as governments and parents alike redirect children to schools that remain open.
• Rise in dropout rates: It is a challenge to ensure children and youth return and stay in school when schools reopen after closures. This is especially true of protracted closures and when economic shocks place pressure on children to work and generate income for financially distressed families.
• Increased exposure to violence and exploitation: When schools shut down, early marriages increase, more children are recruited into militias, sexual exploitation of girls and young women rises, teenage pregnancies become more common, and child labour grows.
• Social isolation: Schools are hubs of social activity and human interaction. When schools close, many children and youth miss out of on social contact that is essential to learning and development.
• Challenges measuring and validating learning: Calendared assessments, notably high-stakes examinations that determine admission or advancement to new education levels and institutions, are thrown into disarray when schools close. Strategies to postpone, skip or administer examinations at a distance raise serious concerns about fairness, especially when access to learning becomes variable. Disruptions to assessments results in stress for students and their families and can trigger disengagement.

/awaits incoming millennial Yank tears

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you lot?

You're incapable of having any sort of conversation without politicising it and screaming at each other.

[Gaidax]

I agree, which is why I am fully in favor of universal basic income for the duration of the crisis.

At which point the conundrum on the part of the people you are defending is immediately to be revealed as not one of feasibility, but "ehhhhhh I don't wanna give the poors money for nothing :<<<<<", not an actual concern over anyone or even society's welfare.

Clownery and greed, plain and simple.

I mean, I don't really give a fuck what US does, tbh. I don't even live there and US can spend its money however they want (assuming they actually agree on anything).

What I am trying to say here is a simple thing - lockdown is not an option you can do in US for any sort of extended period, if at all. Given that, the actual plan should be a reasonable compromise between healthcare and welfare. People do want to have their reasonable income, while being reasonably safe. So give them that, instead of going full militant with "solutions" that hold no water.


I mean, in case of our country - we did lockdown and pretty early and it pretty much "reset" the whole thing, but within one month we were back to peak numbers. We can maybe lockdown once more and that's about it and this time it will have a HUGE social costs too - there are already plenty demonstrations by people who got their livelihoods ruined by the first one.

Can't do that shit on and off until Spring.

[Gorsameth]

I think at some point a person with any lick of common sense will understand that you can't lockdown until Spring.

As such, yes, there will need to be some sort of compromise that reduces the risks while still helps people to get by. It is a very real issue for working parents and not everyone by far have any sort of permanent solution there.

No one is talking about going into lockdown for a year. And a lockdown isn't needed until a vaccine is out.

Lockdown to stop rampant spread, then re-open with proper contact tracing and quarantine, with additional local measures as needed.

[Elegiac]

I mean, I don't really give a fuck what US does, tbh. I don't even live there and US can spend its money however they want (assuming they actually agree on anything).

What I am trying to say here is a simple thing - lockdown is not an option you can do in US for any sort of extended period, if at all. Given that, the actual plan should be a reasonable compromise between healthcare and welfare. People do want to have their reasonable income, while being reasonably safe. So give them that, instead of going full militant with "solutions" that hold no water.

I mean, in case of our country - we did lockdown and pretty early and it pretty much "reset" the whole thing, but within one month we were back to peak numbers. We can maybe lockdown once more and that's about it and this time it will have a HUGE social costs too - there are already plenty demonstrations by people who got their livelihoods ruined by the first one.

Can't do that shit on and off until Spring.

Again, I'm saying it's entirely possible - the precluding factor is just some crony capitalist nonsense.

Saying "we need to compromise with that" is carrying water for it, and I'm not sure why that is the hill you've chosen to die on but more power to you.

[Gaidax]

No one is talking about going into lockdown for a year. And a lockdown isn't needed until a vaccine is out.

Lockdown to stop rampant spread, then re-open with proper contact tracing and quarantine, with additional local measures as needed.

From my personal experience a week and a half of lockdown basically delays the whole thing for about a month. It's a good firefighting measure, but it's not a magic solution. It's also, pretty much, a nuclear option that you can maybe use twice, before you will have outright riots.

The way US is, I don't think lockdown is even feasible. Some better long-term solution is needed.

[Elegiac]

From my personal experience

Is exactly the sort of substantiation that carries weight in a medical crisis.

Not.

[Gaidax]

Again, I'm saying it's entirely possible - the precluding factor is just some crony capitalist nonsense.

Saying "we need to compromise with that" is carrying water for it, and I'm not sure why that is the hill you've chosen to die on but more power to you.

Hill I've chosen to die on? You really love that one, do you?

It's simply reality vs your feverish dreams. No, United States won't go full commie in a matter of month or two to the point where there is even a possibility of whatever you push happening, chairman.

Instead of grabbing that red flag and sprouting delirious nonsense, ought as well accept the reality.

[Elegiac]

Hill I've chosen to die on? You really love that one, do you?

It's simply reality vs your feverish dreams. No, United States won't go full commie in a matter of month or two to the point where there is even a possibility of whatever you push happening, chairman.

Instead of grabbing that red flag and sprouting delirious nonsense, ought as well accept the reality.

"Lives are more important than money" is delirious nonsense, apparently.

This is why I don't remotely believe any right winger that says they give a shit about anything but the GDP, lol. The calculus of weighing a made up number versus someone actually dying by itself demonstrates a problem by virtue of existing.

[Gaidax]

Is exactly the sort of substantiation that carries weight in a medical crisis.

Not.

When I say "my" experience, I say my country's experience. I was in lockdown and I seen the result. It was great, but the effect quickly wore and we went back to even greater numbers. It's a great last resort stalling measure, but in the end it did not solve anything.

[Elegiac]

When I say "my" experience, I say my country's experience. I was in lockdown and I seen the result. It was great, but the effect quickly wore and we went back to even greater numbers. It's a great last resort stalling measure, but in the end it did not solve anything.

That's still your interpretation of the data based on your perspective and thus colored by your biases, hun. Lol.

[Egomaniac]

Spring is realistic, you have at least 2 vaccines at final testing stages - we will have vaccine by Spring. It's not just some empty hope.

Maybe. I still thinking putting all the hopes towards a vaccine in early spring is putting all the eggs in a single basket. A lot can happen during final testing. Best to proceed as if there is no clear timeline on when the Vaccine will be ready.

I think it's important to not go full paranoid there either. In the end we will have to live with this for next ~9 months, that's a long time and considering nobody in their right mind will be locking down countries for months without end, it's much better to be reasonable and find a way to keep a balance between the polar opposites of lockdown and free-for-all.

I'm just talking about when it comes to opening schools in September. A lock down 2 weeks before won't be good enough. People often don't even show symptoms for the first two weeks after infection. And if they're still operating as if they don't ahve the virus...they could be infecting other people...whoa re infecting other people. Starting lockdowns right now will reveal many of the people who have just been infected and still allow some time for contact tracing before reopening schools. Locking down 2 weeks ago would have been better still. Then you could actually maybe start seeing some results of the contact tracing and whatever necessary quarantines come with it.

I agree going into full lockdown for months at a time isn't a good option....but staying home whenever you can and wearing a mask whenever you do have to go out isn't anything close to a full lockdown. It's just common sense.

[Gaidax]

"Lives are more important than money" is delirious nonsense, apparently.

This is why I don't remotely believe any right winger that says they give a shit about anything but the GDP, lol. The calculus of a made up number versus someone actually dying by itself demonstrates a problem by virtue of existing.

Yeah, that's cute. Straight outta trashy Jap Anime that one. As shortsighted too.

You can destroy lives in more than one way. If I look at what is going on here locally, I'm not sure what's worse - those several people dead per day or sudden 20% unemployment and subsequent welfare riots that both spread the infection and violence.

[Forogil]

Really all that needs to be said:

If the US approach is that "kindergartners will figure out" that explains a lot of the problems (another approach is to actually try to teach kids something).

For a look at how ridiculous the US solutions are - look at Occupational Safety and Health Advice for Covid-19 OSHA 3990-03 2020 (which is general and not for schools) which doesn't mention that companies even could encourage working from home.

And then look at Florida, which still has this health advice for high risk populations risk https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/high-risk-populations/
Avoid close contact to anyone that is sick and do not allow anyone to enter your home that is showing symptoms of respiratory infection such as cough, fever, shortness of breath and sore throat.
Do not allow persons who have traveled internationally in the past 14 days to enter your home.
Do not allow persons who have traveled on a cruise ship in the past 14 days to enter your home.

The first part makes sort sense (but should be general), but international travel and cruise ships?
Is that really the thing that Florida man should primarily avoid?

[Elegiac]

Yeah, that's cute. Straight outta trashy Jap Anime that one. As shortsighted too.

I really don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people.

You can destroy lives in more than one way. If I look at what is going on here locally, I'm not sure what's worse - those several people dead per day or sudden 20% unemployment and subsequent welfare riots that both spread the infection and violence.

Again, it's really just telling how warped y'all's view of reality is that you think someone actually dying versus someone being financially inconvenienced (in an entirely preventable fashion, mind you, because the only thing in obstacle to addressing that financial inconvenience is greedy fucks that think taxes are theft) are remotely equivalent problems.

Wrapping a fundamentally irrational premise in what you deem to be layers of logic doesn't make the premise any less bullshit, lol.

[Gaidax]

I agree going into full lockdown for months at a time isn't a good option....but staying home whenever you can and wearing a mask whenever you do have to go out isn't anything close to a full lockdown. It's just common sense.

Absolutely, I am full stop for actual regulations, guidelines AND their enforcement.

For example, masks should be mandatory and people not wearing one should get fined. Same goes for limit guidelines for businesses, such as checking temperature on entry for bigger stores and limit of customers in the store per electronic counter. Business that does not enforce should be first fined, then closed for good.

There are a lot of good regulations to implement that are far more reasonable than lockdown and are actually effective, especially with proper enforcement.

That's the reasonable and helpful options I am talking about... instead of that "down with capitalists", lock everything down now forever delirious nonsense.

[Elegiac]

That's the reasonable and helpful options I am talking about... instead of that "down with capitalists", lock everything down now forever delirious nonsense.

Whatever happened to facts don't care about your feelings?

Ah, wait. I forgot that not all feelings are created equal and those held by rich people are more important, to you folk. More important than lives, in fact.

lock everything down now forever

And resorting to strawmanning no less, lol. At least you're admitting you don't have an actual argument now.

[Mayhem]

If the countries don't make changes to their systems, they don't actually fight anything but hope for the best. The next pandemic is always around the corner, so if the countries don't change, this shit is just going to repeat itself at some point. If the virus evolves and maybe fucks up younger folks countries that seem to be doing great right now would suddenly be top of the lists. Now, the more infections, the greater the chance of it evolving into something terrible, fuck it, a vaccine might make it evolve into something more severe.

It already evolved once back in February.

So do not pretend a vaccine might be the solution, especially not if you can't get everyone vaccinated in time.

[Gorsameth]

From my personal experience a week and a half of lockdown basically delays the whole thing for about a month. It's a good firefighting measure, but it's not a magic solution. It's also, pretty much, a nuclear option that you can maybe use twice, before you will have outright riots.

The way US is, I don't think lockdown is even feasible. Some better long-term solution is needed.

A week and a half? more like 2-3 months. 2 weeks to see signs of reduced spread, then more weeks to actually reduce the caseload and get people out of the hospital and recover, then once active cases are way way WAY down you open back up, closing for a week and a half doesn't do jack shit when it takes ~2 weeks for people to show symptoms.

[Egomaniac]

If the US approach is that "kindergartners will figure out" that explains a lot of the problems (another approach is to actually try to teach kids something).

For a look at how ridiculous the US solutions are - look at Occupational Safety and Health Advice for Covid-19 OSHA 3990-03 2020 (which is general and not for schools) which doesn't mention that companies even could encourage working from home.

And then look at Florida, which still has this health advice for high risk populations risk https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/high-risk-populations/
Avoid close contact to anyone that is sick and do not allow anyone to enter your home that is showing symptoms of respiratory infection such as cough, fever, shortness of breath and sore throat.
Do not allow persons who have traveled internationally in the past 14 days to enter your home.
Do not allow persons who have traveled on a cruise ship in the past 14 days to enter your home.

The first part makes sort sense (but should be general), but international travel and cruise ships?
Is that really the thing that Florida man should primarily avoid?

You aren't making a good case for The US opening it's schools.

[Blur4stuff]

If schools open then tens of thousands of additional people will die that wouldn't have otherwise. I don't care what kind of precautions they take, that shit will be useless with kids involved.