So is the Alliance leadership mostly just vengeful people now?

[Combatbutler]

Pyromancer made an interesting observation in his 'Shadows Rising' review video. How the Alliance and Horde leadership structures have seemingly swapped. Now the Horde has a council with many voices and the Alliance is seeing more of Anduin being the singular voice and being decisive.

Anyone with two working eyes can see that, the next step is Alliance screwing things up, it is not rocket science.

[Hekazi]

No?

- Anduin: Does not want revenge.
- Council of Three Hammers: Do not want revenge.
- Tyrande: Wants revenge, HOWEVER she will not start conflict on Azeroth as she is on a journey to Ardenweald in Shadowlands.
- Mekkatorque: Does not want revenge.
- Velen: Does not want revenge.
- Greymane: Wants revenge, and will most likely get it once Sylvanas dies.
- Aysa: Does not want revenge.
- Alleria/Umbric: Do not want revenge.
- Turalyon: Does not want revenge.
- Jaina: Does not want revenge.

So let me ask you again, No?

Alleria, does not want revenge?
No, just summon the void lords that's all.

[Yarathir]

Alleria, does not want revenge?
No, just summon the void lords that's all.

wot

if she wanted to summon the void lords, she'd be a huge enemy

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People are easily baited by it, so it will never really die no matter how pointless or badly written it is.

True. And Blizzard still believes it's the main moneymaker in WoW.

[Feanoro]

Pyromancer made an interesting observation in his 'Shadows Rising' review video. How the Alliance and Horde leadership structures have seemingly swapped. Now the Horde has a council with many voices and the Alliance is seeing more of Anduin being the singular voice and being decisive.

Welcome to Wrath, Pyro. Exciting news! All of the Alliance leaders have AFKed out in favor of the Blue Warchief, High King Dipshit I! If they show up at all, it's to prop up Dipshit and Dipshit Jr. Yes, what an improvement, Alliance lost everything interesting in favor of our own growling Metzen.

Meanwhile, the Horde may have a Warchief, but expect to see plenty of debate, discussion, and drama over that guy's decisions, almost like Metzen wanted to have his absolute military dictator cake and eat it in councils.


Flash forward through multiple expansions of Blue Warchief and Horde council...

It gets even better though, Pyro! Blue Growling Metzen is dead, and Princess Nontoxic Masculinity is in charge. The rest of the Alliance fawns on his woke wisdom such as how if we kill the Horde, they win. Horde continues to have a council, but now it's Official! Even more reason to spend all the writing time on them!


Seriously, trying to claim "leadership structures have swapped, guiz" like it's remotely news is a bad joke.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Welcome to Wrath, Pyro. Exciting news! All of the Alliance leaders have AFKed out in favor of the Blue Warchief, High King Dipshit I! If they show up at all, it's to prop up Dipshit and Dipshit Jr. Yes, what an improvement, Alliance lost everything interesting in favor of our own growling Metzen.

Meanwhile, the Horde may have a Warchief, but expect to see plenty of debate, discussion, and drama over that guy's decisions, almost like Metzen wanted to have his absolute military dictator cake and eat it in councils.


Flash forward through multiple expansions of Blue Warchief and Horde council...

It gets even better though, Pyro! Blue Growling Metzen is dead, and Princess Nontoxic Masculinity is in charge. The rest of the Alliance fawns on his woke wisdom such as how if we kill the Horde, they win. Horde continues to have a council, but now it's Official! Even more reason to spend all the writing time on them!


Seriously, trying to claim "leadership structures have swapped, guiz" like it's remotely news is a bad joke.

Amazing how you can say so much, and yet say so little at the same time.

[Varodoc]

Alleria, does not want revenge?
No, just summon the void lords that's all.

What are you even talking about...

[Soon-TM]

Anyone with two working eyes can see that, the next step is Alliance screwing things up, it is not rocket science.

Nah, Blizzard will never write Alliance as !@#$ing things up. Or if they ever do, they will pull some lame, ex post facto justification out of their rectum (e.g. Genn in Stormheim), or they will just sweep it under the rug and never ever be talked about (e.g. SI:7 killing Goblin civilians because they might be inconvenient witnesses).

Why? Because they are patting themselves about the wonderfully Nuanced (c) story they concocted for BfA. They think it was a huge success (see sig), so why wouldn't they repeat it a few years down the line?

[Feanoro]

Amazing how you can say so much, and yet say so little at the same time.

I'm not sorry for pointing out that Pyro made clickbait on a topic more than ten years old.

[Shaetha]

Uhh...
Torturing someone until they go crazy =/= raising undead to fight for you

If the undead are mindless, I agree, but if they're intelligent, it's absolutely the same thing. You're breaking someone's mind either way. What you do afterward is a separate issue. Not arguing either way here. Just stating what the actual line is for me.

Mindless undead are, at worst, corpse desecration.

[Hekazi]

wot

if she wanted to summon the void lords, she'd be a huge enemy

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True. And Blizzard still believes it's the main moneymaker in WoW.

If she hasn't yet doesn't mean she won't

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What are you even talking about...

I can't wait to see you change that profile picture.

[Yarathir]

If she hasn't yet doesn't mean she won't

Seems like wilful headcanon at this point.

[october breeze]

As an Alliance, I want revenge too.
We must obliterate the filth that Horde is: A bunch of genocidal maniac killing mongers, sheepish liming who follow any bloody tyrant and fuhrer blindly and commit war crimes, while stupidly yell "muh onor" occasionally just to sex up their blood thirsty sadist personas. This cult, must be removed from the face of Azeroth, for good.

[Soon-TM]

This cult, must be removed from the face of Azeroth, for good.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Horde will never, ever be "removed", not even close. The best you can hope for is the Horde to be ruled by a bunch of Anduin groupies, and Blizz already granted your kind the wish. Make sure to enjoy it while it lasts

[LemonDemonGirl]

If the undead are mindless, I agree, but if they're intelligent, it's absolutely the same thing. You're breaking someone's mind either way. What you do afterward is a separate issue. Not arguing either way here. Just stating what the actual line is for me.

Mindless undead are, at worst, corpse desecration.

I don't think Bwonsamdi has ever raised sentient undead, other than the ones during the fight with Zalazane, and Grong (though Grong I can see, the Alliance were literally shocking him into submission and so he'd get even more mad. If anything, Bwonsamdi was siccing him on his former 'captors' which is a good thing imo). He's quite unhappy with forcibly raised undead which is strange since he makes his own lol. Now if he made Rastakhan into a zombie and forced him to fight the Alliance that'd be bad

[Biomega]

I don't think Bwonsamdi has ever raised sentient undead, other than the ones during the fight with Zalazane, and Grong (though Grong I can see, the Alliance were literally shocking him into submission and so he'd get even more mad. If anything, Bwonsamdi was siccing him on his former 'captors' which is a good thing imo).

I mean, I'm not usually one to defend the Alliance's practices, but didn't Grong literally volunteer to be turned into a big Hulk-like monster, knowing full well it could cost him his sanity and/or his life? He's not a captive. He deliberately chose to do it.

As for the whole Horde vs. Alliance thing, there's plenty of blame to go around, going back quite some time in history. From the Night Elves exterminating the Trolls to Orc concentration camps and forced blood sport to Proudmore's little genocide to the preemptive strike on the Azerite operations in Silithus (to name but a few) - the Alliance has had its fair share of aggressive actions. Obviously it keeps escalating, that's why it's called WARcraft, not Peacecraft.

Also it's not like the Alliance hasn't made silly decisions either. When Sylvanas saw the Broken Shore was lost and sounded the retreat, Varian thought he had to be a hero - and suddenly it's her fault that they didn't all take a stand and... all die together? That's how battle works, it changes constantly and you have to adapt your strategy. It's not like Sylvanas PLANNED to just leave Varian to die; things didn't go well, the tide of battle was turning against them, and it was time to pull out. Sylvanas saw that. Varian didn't. If anything, that's HIS failure as a military commander. Instead of dying a heroic death he should have retreated sooner. He didn't, which means he either thought they could still win (making him an idiot), or he thought they should just hold their ground in an unwinnable battle (making him an even bigger idiot). He should have been closely following Sylvanas' lead; but why rely on the experience of a military commander with literally THOUSANDS of years of experience when you're a guy who spent his time locked up or playing Fight Club for a few years. He's a KING after all and therefore automatically #smort.

Tyrande isn't much better. Not only did she fail colossally against the Legion when she was literally there in the First War and apparently learned nothing from it and everything that came after, she also managed to hold a grudge for 10,000 years and immediately snarked the Alliance right out of a chance to recruit what is now arguably the most sophisticated magical fighting force on the planet, the Nightborne.

[Varodoc]

If she hasn't yet doesn't mean she won't

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I can't wait to see you change that profile picture.

Still have no idea of what you're talking about.

Also, you can wait forever. Unlike you Horde fanboys, I stay loyal to a character until the very end.

[Accendor]

No what you're doing is pretending I said something that I didn't.

I really do not. You literally wrote "I said that Varian died because he trusted Sylvanas."

[Varodoc]

Funny how OP pretty much disappeared from the thread. I guess this was yet another bait topic to desperately try to paint the Alliance as the next villain.

[Venziir]

What on earth are you talking about? Vol'jin's death didn't happen because Mueh'zala and Jailer interfered. Their interference caused Vol'jin to pick Sylvanas, that's all. Even then, it was Vol'jin and not Sylvanas that ordered the retreat in the first place. For god's sake, Blizzard's commentary on how Sylvanas' behavior during the Broken Shore was to achieve her Jailer-related goals was about her saving Varian earlier on.

On top of that, no, Varian did not die because "Sylvanas" ordered the retreat. There is no causal link between the Horde's retreat and the events that led to Varian's death. Not only did the withdrawal of the Horde not change the immediate circumstances of the Alliance in any way (right after the Horde left the Alliance gunship arrived and covered the anti-air responsibilities the Horde provided towards the Alliance front) but Varian died because Gul'dan dropped a Fel Reaver onto the battlefield. Which had absolutely squat to do with Sylvanas, Jailer, Shadowlands, the Horde or anything else. The very existence of that Fel Reaver wasn't even a factor in the battle at the Broken Shore at the time of Horde retreating.

If anything the Horde's retreat "ordered by Sylvanas" saved the Alliance because their retreat caused Varian to decide that Alliance should retreat as well. Because he thought that without the Horde they would falter in the long term. So he ordered his people to board the gunship. Which means that were it not for Gul'dan summoning the Fel Reaver at the last moment, even Varian would have survived.




As evidenced by her almost completely withdrawing from Garrosh's war after 4.0 when she secured her borders and being against his plans like the invasion of Gilneas or the attack on Theramore.




Except there was no chance to close the portal. We needed the Pillars of Creation to close it and we had whole zero of them during the attack. Which Khadgar discovered and told us about whooping 5 seconds after the attack failed. On top of that Sargeras was chilling right behind the portal and was personally smiting down anyone who came too close. Broken Shore was a Legion trap. That was its whole purpose. And we fell into that trap because Alliance intelligence got infiltrated by the Legion. There was no chance to win there. Staying at the Broken Shore would have only decimated the Alliance and the Horde, allowing the Legion to conquer Azeroth and finally win the Burning Crusade.




Except the bomb used in Stonetalon was not a mana bomb. And there is nothing in the events of MoP that shows us that Garrosh killed the guy for revealing a non-existent mana bomb. He DID kill him for slaughtering innocents and bringing dishonor to the Horde. The reason why it clashes with his MoP portrayal is because the Stonetalon questline was a mistake caused by Afrasiabi and Kossak not working together to form a cohesive narration, with neither knowing what the other was doing. Afrasiabi flat out admitted he made that mistake in an interview about the release of WoD.




The post you quoted doesn't say anything about the lastest WoW book being written by Golden...




Varian did hear the horn and realized that the Horde is retreating (though not why they did).

When you, in BFA, go to the Broken Shore with Vol'jins urn, his spirit appears and tells you, that some dark power disconnected him from the Loa, thus he didn't even notice or evade the Felguard that struck him. That dark power, was Mueh'zala and the Jailer:

"At Vol'jin's request they traveled to the Broken Shore and called on his spirit there to shed some light on the mystery. As they searched more spirits attacked them, and Vol'jin realized that that day on the Shore, something wasn't right with the way the demons' blades slipped past his guard as if the loa had forsaken him. Even now he still could not hear their voices, and no matter how much he called to Bwonsamdi the loa of death was not answering. He realized that something had been helping the Legion that day to ensure that Vol'jin died"

"In Durotar, Vol'jin and the adventurer delved into the Shadowlands and fought off more spirits as they moved toward Grommash Hold. That day he died, Vol'jin had gotten glimpses of the Other Side and expected to see Bwonsamdi, Hir'eek, Shadra, or any of the other loa but none appeared. But he had felt a powerful presence in the shadows that had taken him somewhere, but now the memory of where was hidden from Vol'jin to prevent him from sharing the truth: that it may not have been the loa that wanted Sylvanas warchief, but something else.[54] Vol'jin didn't believe this was Bwonsamdi's style, but that didn't mean the loa of death couldn't have been behind it"

- https://wow.gamepedia.com/Vol%27jin#Battle_for_Azeroth

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I don't think Bwonsamdi has ever raised sentient undead, other than the ones during the fight with Zalazane, and Grong (though Grong I can see, the Alliance were literally shocking him into submission and so he'd get even more mad. If anything, Bwonsamdi was siccing him on his former 'captors' which is a good thing imo). He's quite unhappy with forcibly raised undead which is strange since he makes his own lol. Now if he made Rastakhan into a zombie and forced him to fight the Alliance that'd be bad

Grong was a volunteer though, he knew exactly what would happen to him - it's part of the Alliance war campaign.

[Mehrunes]

Dude, i know that you think that, but that is not how alliances work. They keep each other informed so they can strategize. In this case the horde should have informed the alliance that their ranks are crumbling so they could organize a retreat or a counter measure. You can think of it as a cartoon story or you can think of it like real warfare. As real warfare it was completely unacceptable. It even informed the enemy as well of their strategy. As a cartoon, it's whatever. Let's roll with it. I don't except deep an realistic story from a cartoon.

Which part of an active battlefield eluded your understanding? You don't strategize during the battle itself because the circumstances do not allow for that. Especially when your position gets shattered (by sudden spaceships reinforcements while you're a medieval-esque army no less). You expressing such an idea shows that you don't know what strategy even is and at very best conflate strategy with tactics. The situation at the Broken Shore concerning the Horde's retreat had squat to do with the very concept of strategy.

And the Alliance was informed. Again, horn signals are a thing. A thing that the Alliance was very much aware of, as evidenced by Varian recognizing it. This isn't 20th century warfare where you have direct communication to each other and can make more organized decisions.

Hey, it worked out in the end because Genn's assumption that Sylvanas was doing something wrong was correct. Let's not ignore that part. You know, when she was trying to enslave a Titan Watcher for free resses.

Which is completely immaterial to @Kallisto's point about Anduin's babbling about peace being empty posturing. Besides, the Alliance is not the world police. And Genn made no assumptions about Sylvanas doing nothing wrong, you're projecting intent that wasn't there onto him. Genn attacked Sylvanas because he had a bone to grind and was prepared to attack them before he even left Stormwind, long before he had any hint as to what Sylvanas was planning.

Anduin didn't denounce the attack because a few hours after the attack, the PC discovers that Sylvanas was actually conspiring with Helya to enslave the head of the Val'kyr for her own nefarious purposes.

Serendipity, or justifiable suspicion that Sylvanas was up to something bad. Like she always is. Always.

And which part of that has anything to do with faction relations? Not only did Genn not attack Sylvanas because of that, but both Helya and Eyir were no one to us at the time (Odin revealed himself to us and became our ally only at the end of Stormheim questline). Alliance is neither the Azerothian world police nor the Horde's overlord. Horde's actions towards third parties are not Alliance's business and do not give the Alliance the right to attack the Horde. Anduin didn't denounce Genn's actions (even though, as per Anduin's own thoughts on the matter, he flat out broke the orders of the High King to perform those actions on top of that), because he's nothing more than a hypocrite about peace. Anduin's concept of peace is a world where the Genns of Azeroth can attack the Horde with complete impunity, which is why the very notion of peace with the Alliance should be utterly worthless for the Horde.

Not to mention the fact that Anduin has no authority over Genn to hand him over in chains as Hordies here want. The High King role (one of Metzen's biggest "fuck it, too busy writing Horde and counting money" moments) is that of a supreme military commander, agreed upon by each member state. He has absolutely no authority over any of the Alliance states beyond that.

Yeah, let's forget that the very next part of what Metzen said about the position was that the High King's authority extends to forces given to his command. The Alliance involvement in Stormheim was directed by Anduin himself. In that operation Genn put himself under the High King's command and authority. Anduin outright remarked about how Genn's antics in Stormheim was a violation of his orders, indicating as much.

Everything Sylvanas has done since Wrath is a betrayal to every race on Azeroth. You really need to recalibrate your thinking. Who it appeared to benefit at the time is irrelevant, and sticking your head in the sand because it contradicts your fantasy of what the story is doesn't matter either. Sylvanas quitting the field at the Broken Shore is part of an explicit betrayal of the entirety of Azeroth, so yes, Varian died because of Sylvanas's betrayal.

Not only was the retreat not called by Sylvanas, not only was Varian killed by a Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth at the time of Horde's retreat, but Blizzard's commentary about Sylvanas' actions at Broken Shore being caused by her Jailer-related goals was that it was the reason why she saved Varian earlier on.

Pyromancer made an interesting observation in his 'Shadows Rising' review video. How the Alliance and Horde leadership structures have seemingly swapped. Now the Horde has a council with many voices and the Alliance is seeing more of Anduin being the singular voice and being decisive.

To be fair, the Alliance was hypothetically ruled by a consensus in the past, but it was rarely the case even then. For example, Varian started the previous faction war all by himself with no input from any other race. Likewise, he single-handedly imposed a new ruling structure upon the Dwarves.