So is the Alliance leadership mostly just vengeful people now?

[Yarathir]

See that's what the normal understanding would be, if presented to anyone not invested in the franchise. Unfortunately, for years now, Blizzard has been pushing that anyone who wants the Horde held accountable or suggests fighting back is obviously a crazy villain in the making. Horde fans have picked up on that.

Sure seems that way. Sure, genocide an Alliance race. It's just war and war isn't pretty.

Tell the Horde PC that they don't like the Horde very much after they genocided their race and it's "WAAAH CRAZED WITCH REEEE WHEN DO WE GET TO KILL HER?"

[Varodoc]

It's funny because it actually happened. Tyrande in Legion beta used to act in a smug and condescending way towards Horde players, most likely because she had not forgotten the path of destruction the Horde carved across Ashenvale in Cataclysm, but Horde players QQed on the forums and Blizzard changed Tyrande.

It seems like Horde players just can't fathom Alliance leaders acting in a smug way towards them, let alone being vengeful.

Gosh, BfA faction war is so satisfying.

[Kallisto]

Since Sylvanas is not a Horde character and never cared about the Horde, Sylvanas fanboys are not Horde fanboys.

Never cared about the horde...

Has entire chapters in books where it shows not to be the case. Even as recent as before the storm her internal thoughts show pride of being warchief and wanting to show favouritism to Sin'dorei and Forsaken. That's not the thoughts of someone who never cared.

[Varodoc]

Never cared about the horde...

Has entire chapters in books where it shows not to be the case. Even as recent as before the storm her internal thoughts show pride of being warchief and wanting to show favouritism to Sin'dorei and Forsaken. That's not the thoughts of someone who never cared.

She only wanted to be Warchief to start a bloody world war, so that she could empower both herself and Jailer. She despises the Horde and anything related to the world of the living. She even laments how the Forsaken, unlike her, clung to life.

This is not surprising, since in War Crimes she vowed she would never again feel love or hope.

[Kallisto]

I completely disagree. Jaina was not crazy, so much so that she wanted Dalaran to be a neutral haven of peace even after Theramore was destroyed. The Sunreaver betrayal simply pushed her to the edge, but in the end she retained her sanity. That's why she ultimately chose to protect Azeroth as a vigilante during Legion (it was confirmed that she was fighting the Legion off-screen after she left the Kirin Tor).

Tyrande is also not crazy. In Legion she was very stressed and desperate to save her beloved husband, and in BfA she seeks revenge for the genocide of her people. In Shadowlands she will find some answers in Ardenweald and probably get over most of her trauma.

There was no Sunreaver betrayal, the actions of 1 measly little pawn do not mean collective punishment is justified. Also, Jaina broke neutrality when helping the Night Elves with the bell. If she was truly neutral (Not Jaina neutral which in tides of war she openly states neutrality means helping the alliance.). She would have gone to the Night elves and said "Oh you want my help, sorry neutral, you're on your own. Bye bitches."

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She only wanted to be Warchief to start a bloody world war, so that she could empower both herself and Jailer. She despises the Horde and anything related to the world of the living. She even laments how the Forsaken, unlike her, clung to life.

This is not surprising, since in War Crimes she vowed she would never again feel love or hope.

The war already started by Gen. How are you this stupid?

Or does Sylvanas have deadpool powers where her internal thoughts are lies directed at the reader?

Infracted.

[Hekazi]

Still have no idea of what you're talking about.

Also, you can wait forever. Unlike you Horde fanboys, I stay loyal to a character until the very end.

You'll just get destroyed like Alleria then.

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Seems like wilful headcanon at this point.

Not.
She's the gate.
How are you gonna have a picture of Eto but you're fundamentally inapt at predicting the most obvious future?

[Varodoc]

There was no Sunreaver betrayal, the actions of 1 measly little pawn do not mean collective punishment is justified. Also, Jaina broke neutrality when helping the Night Elves with the bell. If she was truly neutral (Not Jaina neutral which in tides of war she openly states neutrality means helping the alliance.). She would have gone to the Night elves and said "Oh you want my help, sorry neutral, you're on your own. Bye bitches."

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The war already started by Gen. How are you this stupid?

Or does Sylvanas have deadpool powers where her internal thoughts are lies directed at the reader?

Sylvanas started the war with the brutal act of aggression that was the War of Thorns, Danuser said so in a recent interview with Windows Central. All those who paid attention to War Crimes knew that Sylvanas did not care about the Horde or the living. You just did not pay attention to the story, nor picked up any of the many details Blizzard spread throughout the plot.

You'll just get destroyed like Alleria then.

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Not.
She's the gate.

Once again I have no clue of what you're talking about.

[Delano]

Oh you silly gooses, talking about the cardboard cutouts in WoW as if they have arcs or agency. The characters in WoW are little more than chess pieces clumsily pushed around to express whatever knockoff comics trope Blizzard decided to copy that day. When your primary goal is pleasing shareholders, story doesn't just come second--it comes last. Luckily, the pigs are pleased enough with their slop, so the circus rolls on...

Infracted.

[Steelangel]

And which part of that has anything to do with faction relations? Not only did Genn not attack Sylvanas because of that, but both Helya and Eyir were no one to us at the time (Odin revealed himself to us and became our ally only at the end of Stormheim questline).

Uh.. Maybe you didn't play the whole part where we met Eyir in Skold-Ashil.

Anduin's concept of peace is a world where the Genns of Azeroth can attack the Horde with complete impunity, which is why the very notion of peace with the Alliance should be utterly worthless for the Horde.

The Horde's notion of peace at any time past Thrall's leadership has been "Let's destroy everything everyone else holds dear, because they're such wusses they won't fight back." Krasarang Wilds? Polluted by the Horde. The Vale? Ripped up by the Horde. Ashenvale? Clearcut by the Horde. Gilneas City? poisoned by the Horde. Teldrassil? Genocide at the hands of the Horde.

not only was Varian killed by a Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth at the time of Horde's retreat

Varian was killed by Gul'dan. He destroyed the Fel Reaver single handedly and fought off a horde of demons before being subdued by his injuries.

For example, Varian started the previous faction war all by himself with no input from any other race. Likewise, he single-handedly imposed a new ruling structure upon the Dwarves.

You have an incredibly selective memory. Last I checked, the Dwarves were about to have a civil war over Moira's claim to the empty throne and Varian wisely averted a major conflict by suggesting a council rule in a regency until Dagran comes of age. (At that point, who knows?)

[Ersula]

No?

- Anduin: Does not want revenge.
- Council of Three Hammers: Do not want revenge.
- Tyrande: Wants revenge, HOWEVER she will not start conflict on Azeroth as she is on a journey to Ardenweald in Shadowlands.
- Mekkatorque: Does not want revenge.
- Velen: Does not want revenge.
- Greymane: Wants revenge, and will most likely get it once Sylvanas dies.
- Aysa: Does not want revenge.
- Alleria/Umbric: Do not want revenge.
- Turalyon: Does not want revenge.
- Jaina: Does not want revenge.

So let me ask you again, No?

I think Ion's shadowlands wonky time rate is a great idea: Imagine we return to Azeroth after shadowlands & 30 or more years have passed. Turalyon & Alleria don't want revenge but they do have an irrational hatred of the horde, (Them holding the actions of the Old Horde against the New Horde, as it was founded by a Orc, who wasn't even alive during those events, makes as much sense as holding the Draenei to blame for the actions of the Eredar) & Alleria's clear desire to reuinite with the Sunwell is just downright irresponsible. So I suspect the next big arc will be about how all the more peaceful characters left for the shadowlands while Azeroth is left in the hands of the people who stayed behind.

[Varodoc]

I think Ion's shadowlands wonky time rate is a great idea: Imagine we return to Azeroth after shadowlands & 30 or more years have passed. Turalyon & Alleria don't want revenge but they do have an irrational hatred of the horde, (Them holding the actions of the Old Horde against the New Horde, as it was founded by a Orc, who wasn't even alive during those events, makes as much sense as holding the Draenei to blame for the actions of the Eredar) & Alleria's clear desire to reuinite with the Sunwell is just downright irresponsible. So I suspect the next big arc will be about how all the more peaceful characters left for the shadowlands while Azeroth is left in the hands of the people who stayed behind.

Turalyon and Alleria haven't shown particular hatred towards the Horde. Turalyon was afk during the expansion revolving around faction war, and Alleria was actually willing to form a truce with the Horde to stop N'Zoth. Garrosh (someone who actually hated the other faction) would've never formed a truce with them for example. Both leaders also welcomed the armistice and end to the bloody war.

If Thrall didn't want people to associate his new Horde with the old Horde, then perhaps he shouldn't have named the new Horde capital after the genocidal warmonger who led the old Horde.

[Ersula]

The Horde's notion of peace at any time past Thrall's leadership has been "Let's destroy everything everyone else holds dear, because they're such wusses they won't fight back." Krasarang Wilds? Polluted by the Horde. The Vale? Ripped up by the Horde. Ashenvale? Clearcut by the Horde. Gilneas City? poisoned by the Horde. Teldrassil? Genocide at the hands of the Horde.

From the Horde's side, the Alliance overhunted Krasarang, as that's just blizzard's basic storytelling for depicting the faction war. Garrosh digging up the Sha-heart indirectly helped the Vale, because now the Sha are gone & the Vale is healed. Gilneas, literally werewolfs were pouring out of that place because the crappy wall they built couldn't keep them in, putting the forsaken in immediate danger. Ashenvale, that's more complicated but Human & Dwarf resource gathering is just as harmful to the environment as the Horde's is, and then there's the idea that the Hyjal region was settled by trolls & tauren before the Night Elves decided to move there when they destroyed part of the world.

Interesting how Night Elves destroying a large chunk of the world never gets brought up when talking about slights against native populations

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Turalyon and Alleria haven't shown particular hatred towards the Horde.

You're giving them an overly kind revision of history. There was an armastice during Legion & they still expressed disgust toward the horde even before the BFA started. As for Shadows Rising Turalyon & Alleria literally melt one of their own citizen's brains because they SUSPECT he might have helped the horde at some point. You all mocked me when I said I hope they don't turn Sylvanas into a one-dimensional villain because if they do it's just going to be tit-for-tat atrocities committed against each other & I thought a war story doesn't need that to be interesting, but now that's exactly what's happening to beloved Alliance characters. This is who they are now.

[Varodoc]

From the Horde's side, the Alliance overhunted Krasarang, Garrosh digging up the Sha-heart indirectly helped the Vale, because now the Sha are gone & the Vale is healed. Ashenvale, that's more complicated but Human & Dwarf resource gathering is just as harmful to the environment as the Horde's is, and then there's the idea that the Hyjal region was settled by trolls & tauren besides the Night Elves decided to move there when they destroyed part of the world.

Interesting how Night Elves destroying a large chunk of the world never gets brought up when talking about slights against native populations

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You're giving them an overly kind revision of history. There was an armastice during Legion & they still expressed disgust toward the horde even before the BFA started. As for Shadows Rising Turalyon & Alleria literally melt one of their own citizen's brains because they SUSPECT he might have helped the horde at some point. You all mocked me when I said I hope they don't turn Sylvanas into a one-dimensional villain because if they do it's just going to be tit-for-tat atrocities committed against each other & I thought a war story doesn't need that to be interesting, but now that's exactly what's happening to beloved Alliance characters. This is who they are now.

I didn't mock you, I don't even know who you are, and I already knew Sylvanas was a one-dimensional villain. That doesn't change the fact that Alleria and Turalyon do not despise the Horde so much as to declare war against them, and indeed they welcomed the armistice.

You're one to talk about "revision of history", when you claimed Garrosh actually did nothing wrong at the Vale. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? You are the first I've ever seen attempting to justify Garrosh's actions in the Vale, not even Garrosh fanboys go that far.

Finally, no Alliance leader is a one-dimensional villain. No Alliance leader is a villain in the first place.

[Ersula]

That doesn't change the fact that Alleria and Turalyon do not despise the Horde so much as to declare war against them, and indeed they welcomed the armistice.

And like I said, you can only deny their hatred for the horde if you ignore all their dialog since they got back from legion & the events of Shadows Rising.

You're one to talk about "revision of history", when you claimed Garrosh actually did nothing wrong at the Vale. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? You are the first I've ever seen attempting to justify Garrosh's actions in the Vale, not even Garrosh fanboys go that far.

I never claimed that. Only that there was mitigating factors. And I'm sure when the Horde & Alliance unite to kill a tyrannical Turalyon & Alleria in 10.3 we won't hold it against the Alliance, just like they don't hold Garrosh against the Horde.

[Varodoc]

And like I said, you can only deny their hatred for the horde if you ignore all their dialog since they got back from legion & the events of Shadows Rising.

I never claimed that. Only that there was mitigating factors. And I'm sure when the Horde & Alliance unite to kill a tyrannical Turalyon & Alleria in 10.3 we won't hold it against the Alliance, just like they don't hold Garrosh against the Horde.

The events of Legion are irrelevant because in BfA they welcomed the armistice. And in Shadows Rising they did not show any particular hatred towards the Horde. They were told by Anduin to get info on Sylvanas at all costs, and they did.

I never claimed that. Only that there was mitigating factors. And I'm sure when the Horde & Alliance unite to kill a tyrannical Turalyon & Alleria in 10.3 we won't hold it against the Alliance, just like they don't hold Garrosh against the Horde.

You're trying too hard.

[Yarathir]

You'll just get destroyed like Alleria then.

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Not.
She's the gate.
How are you gonna have a picture of Eto but you're fundamentally inapt at predicting the most obvious future?

Easy. I don't buy into cope-induced headcanons by forum randomers who probably think Pyromancer makes great theories.

*Oh and even if I did, I don't pay much heed to Blizzard when it concerns storytelling because they lack any and all consistency and will just do what suits them or sounds cool at any given moment.

[Hekazi]

Sylvanas started the war with the brutal act of aggression that was the War of Thorns, Danuser said so in a recent interview with Windows Central. All those who paid attention to War Crimes knew that Sylvanas did not care about the Horde or the living. You just did not pay attention to the story, nor picked up any of the many details Blizzard spread throughout the plot.



Once again I have no clue of what you're talking about.

You will, with time.

[Ersula]

The events of Legion are irrelevant because in BfA they welcomed the armistice. And in Shadows Rising they did not show any particular hatred towards the Horde. They were told by Anduin to get info on Sylvanas at all costs, and they did.

Maybe if you're unable to infer subtext. Or all the times in game Alleria directly calls the Horde disgusting.

I'm tickled that Alliance players are in the denial stage of grief at the idea that a Horde leader would become a tyrannical villain twice, but they would never do the same to the Alliance, even though the villain of WotLK was an alliance leader who invented the cliche.

[Yarathir]

Or all the times in game Alleria directly calls the Horde disgusting.

Based Alleria calling genocidal monsters disgusting.

[Ersula]

Based Alleria calling genocidal monsters disgusting.

So you agree with me: Alleria believes the Horde are disgusting