SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Maljinwo]

I wonder when did Uther get the time to forget his past life and train after helping us in getting the Ashbringer in legion

Guess the kyrians only train for a year at most before ascending

[ChairmanKaga]

I wonder when did Uther get the time to forget his past life and train after helping us in getting the Ashbringer in legion

Guess the kyrians only train for a year at most before ascending

Isn’t it established time passes differently in the Shadowlands vs. Azeroth/Draenor/Outlands etc?

[Verdugo]

Isn’t it established time passes differently in the Shadowlands vs. Azeroth/Draenor/Outlands etc?

I thought that it was estabilished that Blizzard doesnt give a shit about timeline, but I might have heard wrong.

[Aucald]

I thought that it was estabilished that Blizzard doesnt give a shit about timeline, but I might have heard wrong.

They mean that in the Shadowlands, the differential or ratio of time is inconstant. A year could pass on Azeroth and essentially be a century insofar as the Shadowlands are concerned. It also seems to vary from realm to realm - with the Maw probably having the widest differential due to its nature as a place of endless torment.

[azkhane]

I wonder when did Uther get the time to forget his past life and train after helping us in getting the Ashbringer in legion

Guess the kyrians only train for a year at most before ascending

uhhh wrong paladin dude get your lore straight, the one with the ashbringer in legion was Tirion, you know that guy responsible of the destruction of frostmourne? Uther was the teacher of Arthas and was killed by arthas in the scourge campaign in old WC3 by the second or third mission.

[Proudmong]

uhhh wrong paladin dude get your lore straight, the one with the ashbringer in legion was Tirion, you know that guy responsible of the destruction of frostmourne? Uther was the teacher of Arthas and was killed by arthas in the scourge campaign in old WC3 by the second or third mission.

The irony. Ghost Uther gave direction to the Paladin and Maxwell Tyrosus, telling them Tirion yet lived and still had the Ashbringer. Get your paladin lore straight dude

[azkhane]

The irony. Ghost Uther gave direction to the Paladin and Maxwell Tyrosus, telling them Tirion yet lived and still had the Ashbringer. Get your paladin lore straight dude

mmm i forgot uther was involved in the ashbringer quest, but well he literally appears for 10 seconds so... anyway after knowing what we know of SL and the light having no power there i am more inclined to think that Uther wasnt the real one but a echo or the light manipu... i mean guiding us by taking the aspect of some renown dead paladin, so expect a retcon to that quest.

[formerShandalay]

mmm i forgot uther was involved in the ashbringer quest, but well he literally appears for 10 seconds so... anyway after knowing what we know of SL and the light having no power there i am more inclined to think that Uther wasnt the real one but a echo or the light manipu... i mean guiding us by taking the aspect of some renown dead paladin, so expect a retcon to that quest.

I think it might be equally likely that it was the real Uther and his continued wish to guide the people (esp. the Paladins) of Azeroth is what makes him averse enough to losing his memories that he becomes a mawsworn.

[Alanar]

Personally i hope not.

I want to have a steady leadership in the alliance without having the stormwind king either lost/killed or corrupted lol.

Well it's the Alliance turn now to have a corrupted leader... tooo be fair.;p

[tommyhil622]

Well it's the Alliance turn now to have a corrupted leader... tooo be fair.;p

Tyrande is kinda on that course imo. Unfortunately the Alliance MO is to have dying leaders or imprisoned/captive. Horde MO is to have evil/corrupted rulers.

[Soon-TM]

Well, the revelations discussed on the last few pages show my initial reaction was right. "An expansion based on the afterlife is going to be a bad idea."

The idea that we show up and just merrily "fix" and completely change those realms is ludicrous.

It appears to be cut in the same cloth as BfA, i.e. a shameless fixfic, where a new batch of authors decides that such and such elements "aren't the story we want to tell" (Danuser dixit), and start dropping heavy retcons like candy (and in the specific case of WoW, with a generous topping of virtue signaling) in order to accomodate their... um, vision. The very idea that there can be a single, infallible moral body applicable to such disimile beings as e.g. Azeroth Dwarves or AU Draenor ORcs is quite problematic on its own - when you mix it with Golden's or Danuser's stellar penmanship skills, it's almost guaranteed to be a lore!@#$ as big as WoD.

Just look at "a single Legion afterlife across all worlds and dimensions"

[Super Dickmann]

On a different note from the main Kyrian/Forsworn story, which upon further reading does have some good bits in that despite being transparently evil Lysonia at least approaches having a motive, there's this less than promising part.

Uther: My training as an Aspirant was difficult. I remembered nothing of my life.
Uther: Every time I close my eyes, I see my death. I see... him... standing before me, that cursed blade in hand...
Uther: Devos convinced me that my death was wrong. She promised me justice.
Uther: What we did to him was not justice. It was vengeance.
Uther: Lysonia was no different. I did not know that they wielded the same darkness...

We know from Edge of Night that Arthas was already in the Maw but then we also know Uther was not blue and talking to the player as early as Legion and here we are. Bringing Arthas back in a large capacity would be a massive mistake, but redeeming him even more so.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Wait... What if the 'arrangement' Bwonsamdi had with Mueh'zala was that Bwonsamdi had to kill/sacrifice his fellow priests (including his parents) so he'd be the only one left, and then steal their souls? That seems like something he'd hate

Maybe even cannibalize them if he was forced to? Those heads he carries with him have had to come from somewhere, right?

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think you need to redeem Arthas for Uther to realize that Arthas did actually have a point and that Uther did fail him. Uther was supposed to be his mentor. When presented with the situation at Stratholme he didn't go "Arthas there must be a better solution, let us try and find it", he went "lol go fuck yourself, I'm gonna tell your daddy on you". Cause Arthas had a fucking point which was why the entire situation was dramatic in the first place. And past that point he would easily qualify as insane. I don't know about you, but if I had to kill the people I am supposed to serve to stop them from becoming a ravenous zombie army all the while being taunted by a demon, I'd probably become an obsessive PTSD'd husk of a person as well.

In this case it's more that Uther isn't commenting on his mishandling of Arthas while he was alive, though for all I know that could come up either before or after given the Kyrian focus on the past and his misgivings about Arthas and personal qualms would and have kept him from doing his duty, but the idea that whatever they did to him when he appeared in the Shadowlands was unjust, which I'm not seeing.

As for Arthas, PTSD or not, Stratholme being justified or not (It was if you ask me, even if it says a bit about Arthas' mental state that the first thing he goes to is killing everyone in the city) he still had the capacity to decide for himself up until the moment he takes the sword.

[Super Dickmann]

The way I read Uther's comment "What we did to him was not justice. It was vengeance." is that his actions against Arthas were not motivated by Justice but rather by vengeance.

I don't mind it as a character beat, re: Uther himself - I think Uther using his position in the afterlife to take revenge on someone who he's both partly responsible for as well as killed him and ruined his life is entirely in keeping with the character and a good beat to tie his connection to the Forsworn around. It's the broader implication regarding Arthas that makes me dubious.

[Treno]

Huh? We were just saying that since that comic takes place in the future with the aged-looking Anduin on a crusade against the Void, if Anduin comes out of the Shadowlands aged, it would match up with a probable Light vs. Dark expansion in 10.0.

Old Anduin coming from The Maw (as well as a timeskip from being in the Shadowlands) has already been debunked. The Shadowlands don't experience time dilation, rather, the way time is perceived is different, much like when we dream when asleep.

Source: https://youtu.be/fMQjUIo5wBc?t=406

[Syegfryed]

We know from Edge of Night that Arthas was already in the Maw but then we also know Uther was not blue and talking to the player as early as Legion and here we are. Bringing Arthas back in a large capacity would be a massive mistake, but redeeming him even more so.

you bet your ass someone is going to be redeemed in those cursed lands, the problem and question is who

im saving my bets for either Arthas or Sylvnas, or some twist in between, like Arthas taking the Janitor's place and he damn Sylvanas to the Maw

[Varodoc]

Tyrande is kinda on that course imo. Unfortunately the Alliance MO is to have dying leaders or imprisoned/captive. Horde MO is to have evil/corrupted rulers.

How? Because she wants revenge for the genocide of her people? You understand the people of Teldrassil were incinerated down to the last baby, yes? Seeking revenge at all costs does not make her mad in the slightest, in fact it actually makes her sane, because that's what any sane person would do.

[Grazrug]

you bet your ass someone is going to be redeemed in those cursed lands, the problem and question is who

im saving my bets for either Arthas or Sylvnas, or some twist in between, like Arthas taking the Janitor's place and he damn Sylvanas to the Maw

No. Sylvanas will win and archieve her ultimate goal of immortality. Alliance can suck it up. They don't deserve anything from her least of all winning.

[Super Dickmann]

I think the idea that strong emotional bonds with the few rare people that went into the Maw (because before whatever happened I assume it was very few people who ended there) creating a unique resonance makes sense metaphysically. And I do think Arthas showing up does not mean a redemption. Arthas could be useful. And I expect Venari to betray us along the line so Arthas could end up being our ally in the Maw.
Plus I think that if Sylvanas got a free pass to move around the Maw, the chance that she'd ask the Jailer if she can have some fun with Arthas is substantial.

I think there's a higher chance of Arthas either being redeemed or in a quasi-positive role than much else, though his appearance is basically guaranteed. As for the Kyrians being able to interject and use a soul, I've no issue with that - nevermind even the emotional tie aspect, they're psychopomps and they can control the flow of souls. Devos and Linaria deciding to use this to get Uther on their side by letting him take a shot at Arthas is entirely in keeping with their power set.

The idea that presumably punting him in the Maw since they mention that whatever they did to him wasn't justice but revenge is somehow amoral though I'm really dubious on as a concept, since it implies that he didn't go to the Janitor but was reassigned there.