So is the Alliance leadership mostly just vengeful people now?

[Shaetha]

Well, considering half of them are probably the same twitter users that just care about shipping, probably not.

Yeah, probably.

I dunno though, the story has always been kinda whatever to me, but it's at least immersive in today's game. I never got into anything before they added cutscenes, and some of the quests in BFA felt really good to experience blind. I think people are just too stuck in their own head to take things as they are presented, and too invested in the past to realize the world keeps going.

[Hekazi]

Am I ok though?

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Uhhh..... I write fan fiction and don't just care about shipping lol

Yes of course <3 You're great, they bad though.

[Yarathir]

Am I ok though?

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Uhhh..... I write fan fiction and don't just care about shipping lol

Sorry to lump you in with them then.

[Steelangel]

From the Horde's side, the Alliance overhunted Krasarang, as that's just blizzard's basic storytelling for depicting the faction war. Garrosh digging up the Sha-heart indirectly helped the Vale, because now the Sha are gone & the Vale is healed. Gilneas, literally werewolfs were pouring out of that place because the crappy wall they built couldn't keep them in, putting the forsaken in immediate danger. Ashenvale, that's more complicated but Human & Dwarf resource gathering is just as harmful to the environment as the Horde's is, and then there's the idea that the Hyjal region was settled by trolls & tauren before the Night Elves decided to move there when they destroyed part of the world.

I don't think I ever picked up on "overhunting" Krasarang. I need to run though that on my Horde toon.

Garrosh tore up the Vale for completely selfish reasons. That what he did was fixed is like saying "Well they burned down the town, but we rebuilt it better!"

Gilneas was cursed, so plaguing their city is a proper and proportionate response? The Worgen were not even a major threat.

Human and Dwarf resource gathering is never shown in game as dramatically as the clearcutting of trees as old as Azeroth.

[Ersula]

That's irrelevant. Anything and everything can be part of the plan. You cannot trust any of that person's previous actions after they are outed as a traitor. It's the same as anything else. That person was revealed to have been your enemy at the time, and you should never believe anything an enemy says that they want you to hear.

Okay, but half of the things that make up the characterization of Sylvanas are not things she says to others. So if dialog only for the sake of the audience turns out to be a lie, it tells you you might as well stop paying attention to the story because it's now both fake AND a lie.

Also, it is still evident to me that they've still have never actually established Sylvanas or the Jailer's motive. Not what they're doing, they're very clear about that but not why they want these things: This is the most important part of characterization, so that we still don't have these details its because their absence is important.... or Ion is the most incompetent storyteller to ever exist

[october breeze]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the Horde will never, ever be "removed", not even close. The best you can hope for is the Horde to be ruled by a bunch of Anduin groupies, and Blizz already granted your kind the wish. Make sure to enjoy it while it lasts

That is not enough. I want rivers run red with blood of the orcs or green, wth is their blood color anyway?

[Melusine]

I really need to point this out: The horde did A LOT of atrocities in the last few years. Canon-wise they are evil monsters now. Varians death on the broken shore was not on them tho.

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Dazar'Alor was not done in retaliation. It was decided to be a military target because of Zul's and Talanjis actions in Stormwind and the destruction of part of the alliance fleet as well as because the Zandalari were working together with the horde and provided a very formidable fleet.

So, it was a RETALIATORY STRIKE, by your own wording. When I say that, what that means is, it was not unprovoked. The Horde had it coming.

The result was of course that the Zandalari joined the Horde immediately afterwards (but lets be honest here, this would have happened either way) and that the Zandalari swore revenge because the Alliance killed their king.

I'm with you so far....

The bullshit here was however, that the Alliance retreated and in the end all they did was to kill the king for basically ZERO gain.

I am not trying to insult your intelligence when I say this, because I have said that exact same thing. I have gone on record several times in these forums (to which, I understand I am nobody here, just like everyone else) to saying the entire premise of the Battle of Dazar'alor was front to back bullshit, on par with trying to parachute onto the back of a huge huge dragon in the middle of the sea. The alliance did a suicide mission as a diversion. I'm going to go a little SUn-Tzu here as suggest, a huge suicide force is the epitome of stupid military tactics. But then, not to be outdone by the stupidity of that tactic, most of the heroes of the horde LEAVE the safety of Dazar'Alor, rather than lock it down, and prepare for a fight at the gates, where the home field advantage is (as we saw with Mythrax), and idk how many time it has to be said, if you pursue a retreating force on the exact path they are using, you're walking into a trap. I don't need Admiral Ackbar in my conference room to tell me that. The Alliance allowed and developed a way to turn the intelligent Grong into a stupid, gigantic ape, something that, it's always been my understanding, that the Alliance would not willingly do. King Rastakhan was killed. At that point, the occupation of Dazar'Alor should have been soundly commenced. What happens... they retreat. ...the fuck?!!? They keep people behind, Alliance heroes and one faction leader, to ensure a quick departure. And in the last part, the Horde sends a single cruiser against 2 Kul-Tiran Battleships, and 3 Alliance destroyers. THAT is also a suicide mission. With all the studying of history, and naval battles of which would fall under this sort of combat, no one ever did anything this blithely stupid.

They had two options: Either finish the Zandalari off (or at least occupy the city or at the VERY LEAST destroy important infrastructure like the harbor) or just destroy the fleet (for that no attack would have been necessary).
The fact that he joined the attack tho was totally logical and in no way for vengeance.

Duty is duty. I don't think anyone would mistake Gelbin Mekkatorque for Genn Greymane.

This is still so trange btw. Canonically the horde Pandaren under Ji Firepaws burned Teldrassil and slaughtered people en mass and only joined the "rebels" when it seemed like Sylvanas would attack Thunder Bluff. I need to empathize this, first the Horde destroyed the Vale of Eternal Blossoms and killed many, many Pandaren, then the Pandaren joined the horde and then they started a genocide themselves.
I mean wtf is going on here.

Yes, this is called incredibly bad writing. I think the truth of the matter is, there will never be another Pandaren neutral race. The entire point of the pandas was so EVERYONE got to be a panda if they wanted to. That was THE dumbest part of Mists of Pandaria.

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Is it revenge to want someone who committed a grave crime to be punished? I think the word you are looking for is JUSTICE

Well dude, that depends. It is not revenge if you take to the justice system, whatever that might be, to mete out just penalty, and allow a third party to do so neutrally based off the crime, and punish it according to the law. Now, if you put on the Skull shirt, load up your guns and personally whack those people like you have a hunting license, that is revenge.

And to be clear, it is also revenge when you seek natural justice, and the existing justice system is either unable to or unwilling to do their job.

And I don't hold it against anyone seeking revenge. I encourage it, especially in World of Warcraft.

[goldlock]

It should be, the idea that the alliance is just cool with the numerous times the horde has betrayed them never made sense

[Shaetha]

Well dude, that depends. It is not revenge if you take to the justice system, whatever that might be, to mete out just penalty, and allow a third party to do so neutrally based off the crime, and punish it according to the law. Now, if you put on the Skull shirt, load up your guns and personally whack those people like you have a hunting license, that is revenge.

And to be clear, it is also revenge when you seek natural justice, and the existing justice system is either unable to or unwilling to do their job.

And I don't hold it against anyone seeking revenge. I encourage it, especially in World of Warcraft.

It's revenge if there's emotion involved. Justice is a different matter altogether.

[arcaneshot]

Okay, but half of the things that make up the characterization of Sylvanas are not things she says to others. So if dialog only for the sake of the audience turns out to be a lie, it tells you you might as well stop paying attention to the story because it's now both fake AND a lie.

Also, it is still evident to me that they've still have never actually established Sylvanas or the Jailer's motive. Not what they're doing, they're very clear about that but not why they want these things: This is the most important part of characterization, so that we still don't have these details its because their absence is important.... or Ion is the most incompetent storyteller to ever exist

Ion doesn't write the story, Alex Afrasiabi does. If you're going to blame anything on the writing, it all comes from Afrasiabi.

[tripleh]

As long as steve danuser is in charge of the narrative team. The alliance won't get to be bad or destructive. They rather focus on Sylvannas and horde story development.

[Raisei]

It should be, the idea that the alliance is just cool with the numerous times the horde has betrayed them never made sense

Too true. I still think the BFA war was narrative-wise a mistake. The faction war should have ended with Legion. A big thread that makes the factions work together and finally bury their stupid rivalry. We worked together in our Order Halls like the best friends, I commanded people from both factions in combat and we celebrated victory together and then 5 weeks later they stab us in the back and genocide the Night Elves.

It makes no sense and felt very forced. Legion was the perfect stepping stone to build a genuine understanding between the factions and at the first sign of that the Horde threw it out of the window because a clearly evil and heavily disturbed Banshee says so.

Now the game expects us to forgive and forget all of this because "it was all Sylvanas". But it just doesn't work that way. The Horde playerbase feels cheated because they were forced into a villain role again and the the Alliance feels cheated because they are forced to pretend like the cowardly murder of thousands of civilians did not happen.

And now, instead of working through this narrative dissonace we piss of to the Shadowlands where nothing of the tension between the factions will matter and the players are basically told to ignore it and save the universe.

If it was clear years ago that our way would be going to the SLs, why did we even need the Blood War Story? It had a few gems but overall it feels pointless now when there are no consequences. Indeed, if it was the set up for the faction merge then it would be different, but that did not happen and we are basically back to the end of Legion with nothing learned and nothing changed (not even counting the Horde council, because it will be removed soon enough).

We will go to the SLs, safe the universe together then the Horde will remember how fun it is to slaughter helpless civilians (led by Rokhan this time) and we start the cycle anew.

[Varodoc]

I understood that there was something wrong with you two

Oh we're "wrong" for supporting a"genocidal" character (she actually isn't)? That's rich coming from a Horde fanboy.

But at least this time you formulated an actual argument and not just fragments of sentences, so well done I suppose.

[Venziir]

It's funny because it actually happened. Tyrande in Legion beta used to act in a smug and condescending way towards Horde players, most likely because she had not forgotten the path of destruction the Horde carved across Ashenvale in Cataclysm, but Horde players QQed on the forums and Blizzard changed Tyrande.

It seems like Horde players just can't fathom Alliance leaders acting in a smug way towards them, let alone being vengeful.

Gosh, BfA faction war is so satisfying.

You mean like Vol'jin in MoP (SoO patch) was smug towards alliance players, so they QQ'ed and Blizzard caved in and added an option to "call his bluff"?

[VladlTutushkin]

There isnt really a point to presenting further arguments to you. The one was enough for you to give a response showing you dont give a shit about facts.

But to appease your trolling...

Both sides fighting together (pretty stupid in hindsight knowing full well the alliance cant handle teamwork). The underestimated legion brings way more forces than expected. Sylvanas "betrays" varian (rofl) and sounds the horn for retreat, ya know, so both factions dont get killed. Greymane chooses to not tell varian retreat was called. Varian dies because Greymane chose to not tell him about the retreat call. Forum trolls call it betrayal on sylvanas's part.

(Source: canon lore, not your feelings)

Oof.

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Why would he get mad at the horde? It's being run by his homies who just try to please him.

And yet we learned that Sylvanas and her new Sugar Daddy orchestrated (with a bit of help from Mue’Zhala) Vol’Jin’s demise and his death was a breaking point to the Horde. If instead he had his full Dark Hunter mojo and kept fighting, inspiring the Horde to go on then Alliance would have had enough time to evacuate properly via gunship and without Varian dying. So she caused the battle to go completely FUBAR when she conspired with Jailer to kill Vol’jin.

[Varodoc]

You mean like Vol'jin in MoP (SoO patch) was smug towards alliance players, so they QQ'ed and Blizzard caved in and added an option to "call his bluff"?

So they did not change his smug attitude, but simply let you call him out on his bs? How is this in any way comparable to Tyrande's behaviour being changed completely?

[bowlink]

So they did not change his smug attitude, but simply let you call him out on his bs? How is this in any way comparable to Tyrande's behaviour being changed completely?

Its not horde scrape the bottom of the alliance hate barrel so mutch all their getting right now is wood splinters

[LemonDemonGirl]

Yes of course <3 You're great, they bad though.

Aww thank you! That's good to know

Sorry to lump you in with them then.

No worries

[goldlock]

Too true. I still think the BFA war was narrative-wise a mistake. The faction war should have ended with Legion. A big thread that makes the factions work together and finally bury their stupid rivalry. We worked together in our Order Halls like the best friends, I commanded people from both factions in combat and we celebrated victory together and then 5 weeks later they stab us in the back and genocide the Night Elves.

It makes no sense and felt very forced. Legion was the perfect stepping stone to build a genuine understanding between the factions and at the first sign of that the Horde threw it out of the window because a clearly evil and heavily disturbed Banshee says so.

Now the game expects us to forgive and forget all of this because "it was all Sylvanas". But it just doesn't work that way. The Horde playerbase feels cheated because they were forced into a villain role again and the the Alliance feels cheated because they are forced to pretend like the cowardly murder of thousands of civilians did not happen.

And now, instead of working through this narrative dissonace we piss of to the Shadowlands where nothing of the tension between the factions will matter and the players are basically told to ignore it and save the universe.

If it was clear years ago that our way would be going to the SLs, why did we even need the Blood War Story? It had a few gems but overall it feels pointless now when there are no consequences. Indeed, if it was the set up for the faction merge then it would be different, but that did not happen and we are basically back to the end of Legion with nothing learned and nothing changed (not even counting the Horde council, because it will be removed soon enough).

We will go to the SLs, safe the universe together then the Horde will remember how fun it is to slaughter helpless civilians (led by Rokhan this time) and we start the cycle anew.

It honestly is even a worse story horde side. You see remorseful orcs forgiving forsaken left and right for utterly lore breaking reasons. Races no longer have any kind of identity or culture in game.

The entirety of the is now one of two thing. Sad boys or comic book villains rubbing their hands together and laughing. Hell the whole war story felt forced in mop never mind bfa.

[bowlink]

@goldlock blame the: *nasally voice* But its world of WARcraft* folk. Open war expansions are never fun lore wise, it wasn't fun in Cata it wasn't fun in mop and it most certainly wasn't fun in Bfa. When will blockheads get it throught their thick skulls there are more types of war, like i don't know:

A cold war (would have been perfect mind you using azerite as a replacement for plutonium)

A proxy war like the did with the hozen and jinyu

An arms war horde trying to replicate the vindicaar with the help of the nightborne. A'la 1960's space race.

Bottom line loads of options it doesn't have to be a WW1 war by just throwing warriors at the problem hoping it will stick