The big panic retcon button Blizz now has.

[Pandragon]

Pretty sure they already said that? Danuser said something like "you did fight N'Zoth, but did you really defeat him? Don't forget what he taught you about visions and stuff."

Either way, Old Gods will be back for the Void expansion. They'll need mid-tier bosses.

This is the only way they can bring him back. By saying it was all a vision to trick us into thinking we won. We hit him and Ny'alotha with the Beam of Origination. It completely removed Ny'alotha from existence.

[taishar68]

Before you debate any piece of WoW lore, with yourself or others, remember that Blizzard goes with cool over continuity, and cool will always win. Which is interesting, because during at least one Blizzcon, it was impressed upon us, that, at their core, Blizzard are storytellers, and the game tells that story. Those two concepts do not dovetail well, if at all.

I'm of a mind that when we come back from Shadowlands we'll find out we did kill N'Zoth, but that afterwards, we were trapped in a vision that saw Azeroth safe, but in reality it has been devastated, and we must repair it. Probably having to take out Wrathion who was truly maddened beyond repair...heck, maybe the start of our vision was when we defeat him in Ny'Alotha. Just idle speculation, really.

[Aucald]

Nobody doubted that Illidan had a goal in BC. Despite what many people believe, BC actually set up Illidan as a villain fairly well.

Illidan was quite villainous in TBC, by his own admission in the Illidan novel. He rationalizes this by blaming it on his consumption of the skull of Gul'dan and having "difficulties" managing the energies and their influence on him. Legion changes nothing of those events or characterization, and Illidan has always been willing to do extreme things if he feels the end justifies the means (e.g. his murder of his own acolytes to empower himself when Black Rook Hold was under attack).

His fear for having failed the Legion multiple times, knowing Kiljaeden would eventually come for him, drove him to insanity, causing him to hole himself in the Black Temple as "Lord of Outland", and kill anyone who stood in his way. No power was too great to seek out for him in order to hold Kiljaeden back, and his safety in his temple as 'lord' brings him to lavish himself in wealth and gifts - Hence the whole areas leading up to the various bosses being filled with flair, concubines, partygoers.

The only person who accused Illidan of insanity was Malfurion, who mused on Illidan's idleness in Outland and spoke only from his own perspective (Malfurion not being one to see his brother in a positive light). The reason for the presence of the concubines in the Black Temple was never really known, either; they never made a lot of sense in context and the Illidan novel explains them as an indulgence to his followers, one he abstained from pretty pointedly. He did indeed seal away Outland from the Legion as best he could, both because he had incurred Kil'jaeden's wrath (a point unchanged in the story) and became he was plotting against the Legion and didn't want them to know his plans.

They didn't recontextualize this - They literally reversed it. Not only was Illidan NOT power hungry and NOT afraid of the Legion, he was in fact plotting the whole time on Outland to get back at the Legion, and his actions were supposedly all towards that end goal. Including but not limited to filling the Black Temple with concubines, because sex will stop the Legion for sure. Including attacking us when we arrived on Outland, because it was more convenient for their retcon to not re-explain that part, so he was just so inept that explaining his situation to us was too much - We just had to die obviously. Including feeding the orcs of Outland the blood of Magtheridon to turn them into ruthless killers bound to - you guessed it - a Legion pitlord. Makes a lot of sense for someone fighting the Legion right?

You're mistaken in the nature of the recontextualization. Illidan *was* power-hungry, he was pulling all the power of Outland to himself for the goal of creating a force that could oppose the Legion. The creation of the Fel Orcs, the suborning of Magtheridon, the expansion of the ranks of the Demon Hunters, and the creation of the Illidari in general were all bent toward the same goal. The main change here isn't that he was power-hungry, it was the reason why; which again went unexplained in TBC and was just taken as a given. Illidan used terrible means to accrue his power, and opposed any other power that might stop or limit him (such as the Sha'tar) - he set himself up as a figurative and literal hydraulic despot to create a concrete power bloc from Outland's resources, all the while using his elite Demon Hunter corps to soften up the Legion's defenses and logistics to make a successful final battle possible.

The entire premise of the BC expansion isn't true. The conclusion is ALSO no longer true, as we didn't kill Illidan despite Outland being partially in the Nether, apparently Maiev trapped his body in a crystal instead of destroying it for some reason - Especially strange, since that only further negates the "The hunter is nothing without the hunt" line at the end, since Maiev fully expected Illidan to someday return, hence putting his body in prison.

Whether Outland is or isn't in the Nether is an open point of contention - some demons "die" in Outland only to return later on (e.g. Aggonar, who returns in Legion). Similarly, Maiev's line wasn't really about a future "hunt" for Illidan but more that she had come to define her life by hunting Illidan, and now that she had caught him she felt no elation or sense of victory. She had her vengeance, but due to the fact it had cost her everyone she had ever loved or cared for it rang exceedingly hollow.

[Sangris]

As if Blizzard look for excuses to retcon their lore. They've been doing nonsensical retcons left and right for many years now without any regard for the lore of previous writers or even their own writing.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Technically it can be if they wanted to. Visions of N'zoth really is that flexible, since all we saw was Nyalotha being destroyed and nobody was in it necessarily thus adding more credibility that it could be fake. OR the whole dagger shennigans shows that N'zoth really sees his "defeat" as a win for him in someway he isn't contained to just on Azeroth. Again thats IF that is the case.

Considering how many people feel N'zoth was wasted, and the whole Blizzard likes to use up villains fast(People do love to whine about them being lazy reusing old stuff but....yeah they won't mention that in tandem with wasting villains). Old Gods are still in the realm of returning. So I'm fine with them having a bit of a retcon switch regarding parts of BFA involving N'zoth defeat.

[Shelly]

They had a story going in Outland. Nobody would argue it was particularly good, but they had one. It was a story of an otherwise-good person's descent into madness due to their lust for power.

Just because you chose not to pay attention doesn't mean there wasn't a story there.

Saying "they won't retcon because people didn't like it" when they did in fact retcon an entire expansion's story because people didn't like it is a silly argument.

Yes, but that story was actually told in The Frozen Throne and it's about Kael'Thas, not Illidan.

Illidan's story is straight up about how someone can't deal with their own failures and retreats and hides. Meanwhile everything being done in Outland is being done at the behest of Kael'Thas whom has installed a council of Blood Elves that keep information from Illidan all while Kael is out there making literal deals with the devil.

So Kael was once a good man who only wanted to save his people from mana starvation, then gets turned on to "fel" devouring by Illidan, then loses himself in fel energies and after seeing Illidan bow to Kil'Jaedin at the start of TFT later seeks him out and switches masters so he can get some more of that sweet sweet fel lovin'.

It'll be interesting to see how they treat Kael in Shadowlands.

[Arkura]

It is not how it is. You can absolutely kill Old Gods, that's why Y'shaarj is dead. The problem with Titans was that them killing Y'shaarj also has wounded Azeroth greatly because their way to do it was super crude and they decided to not risk another such wound and instead conjured an army that eventually sealed the Old Gods.

They did not have an effective way to kill Old Gods without destroying the planet in the process, it's quite a lot different from "you can't kill an old god".

What happened in out case is up for debate. We killed N'zoth in Ny'alotha and for me it's pretty unclear how to take it, because Ny'alotha appears to not be an actual physical place in Azeroth, but some sort of vision or alternate reality. This is what likely allowed the things to play out as they did on top of the focused forge beam.

Yeah thats how it was, I just did what the typical mmo champer does, post shit I know almost nothing about

[DemonHunter18]

The only person who accused Illidan of insanity was Malfurion, who mused on Illidan's idleness in Outland and spoke only from his own perspective (Malfurion not being one to see his brother in a positive light).

Tyrande called him crazy first during one of WoW's small short stories iirc.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, Illidan's novel should have been released way sooner.

It took them almost 10 years.

Way too late for me to care.

William King wrote it good though.

They clearly brought back Illidan due to fans wanting him back and missed the redeeming part because there was nothing to redeem nor was the novel written like that.

And the game horribly did his storyline anyway.

[eurojust]

Yeah, keep pushing that head canon, my boy.

TBC was not retconned, you can keep trying hard to claim it was, but in reality it is as people say - you simply had no idea what Illidan was actually planning to do - that's why for many TBC Illidan made no sense to begin with and now when we know the context his power build up in that dustball makes much more sense.

Getting post factum insight is not a "retcon".

Illidan explicitly details his plans for Outland during wc3 : He wants to rule Outland. + add the fact that he failed to destroy the LK and therefore fears that Kiljaeden will come for him and you got all the context you need to understand his actions during TBC.

Edit : They pulled the "my main goal was always to destroy the Legion" excuse with the book + Legion, but i don't buy it : He made a deal with KJ in the first place. He worked for the Legion by trying to destroy the LK (almost destroying half of Azeroth by doing it). He refers to KJ as "his new master", etc. He went to Outland not to fight the Legion but to hide from it.
His main goal (at least during wc3, until wow retconned him) was always power.

[Powerogue]

I really, really doubt they'd do that. I'm putting that at a 3.33 (repeating of course) % of happening.

The other idea someone brought up that Xal'atath (dagger) was imbued with his essence and stolen by someone seems far, far more likely for Setback(TM) material. Especially since Xal'atath (girl/old god??) is still free.

[Mehrunes]

He wasn't 'just fucking shit up.' The only question that existed was "Why did he invade Azeroth?" Because that, amongst all questions, is a fair one to ask - Because there really wasn't a sensible reason. Which as we know as of Legion, it WASN'T even Illidan, it was the Legion using us as a distraction. Which still makes sense even if Illidan was just crazy.

TBC never said anything about Illidan invading Azeroth to begin with. The Dark Portal was reopened by Kazzak and what poured through were his Legion buddies. That was always known.

[Nefastus]

Yeah we expect that kind of twist since Ragnaros and C'thun actually.

It became a bit more blatant with woltk and return of Arugal, though.

Yeah, Blizz is the master of retcons and recicling. Eventually every boss we ever fought will be back for "reasons". Just see cataclysm disaster when they brought back pretty much everyone, even freaking Cho'Gall.

- - - Updated - - -

As if Blizzard look for excuses to retcon their lore. They've been doing nonsensical retcons left and right for many years now without any regard for the lore of previous writers or even their own writing.

Just see the Eredar/draenei fiasco in TBC. Metzen forgot about the draenei in warcraft 3 lol. Complete bs, its when I saw they didnt give a crap about the lore.

[Quaade]

Pretty sure they already said that? Danuser said something like "you did fight N'Zoth, but did you really defeat him? Don't forget what he taught you about visions and stuff."

Either way, Old Gods will be back for the Void expansion. They'll need mid-tier bosses.

Yeah, because nothing makes people as excited as having every achievement they've done undone on the reason of "because."

Lore wise the Old Gods have been likened to cancer. Read up on immunology and the hypothetical treatments of cancer. The players have been likened to the immune system of Azeroth. That should give you a better understanding of the reason that we can kill the Old Gods without doing any damage to Azeroth like the TItans did. In the analogy the Titans are doctors and conventional cancer treatment.

[Unholyground]

Just so people know, The Maw is where N'Zoth went when he died. This was all part of his plan the whole time. Consuming death itself would give ultimate victory to the void.

[Nathreim]

So we beat N'Zoth and saved the world from being gripped by the nightmare of Nyalotha thus saving Azeroth.

Or did we?

A lot of folks have complained about them having wasted something so huge as the last old god as just filler in a rather mediocre expansion where the lore was entirely eclipsed by systems that constantly needed patching.

The thing is though that they can totally say "oh well, you didn't actually defeat him. You've been stuck in a weird nightmare for the past 2, 3, 5 or whatever many expansions. Here's a nice cool old god expansion where you have to reclaim the sanity of a corrupted Azeroth!"

Just the very nature of N'Zoth makes this happen. They can entirely nullify any lore from this point forward at any time and just play the hackneyed sitcom cliche of it all being a dream.

Yes folks, we could get Newharted.

If blizz really wanted to hit us with more old god stuff they would have new ones slam into Azeroth. The traumatic arrival of new old gods from the great dark would be quite the event.

[Varodoc]

Yeah, because nothing makes people as excited as having every achievement they've done undone on the reason of "because."

Lore wise the Old Gods have been likened to cancer. Read up on immunology and the hypothetical treatments of cancer. The players have been likened to the immune system of Azeroth. That should give you a better understanding of the reason that we can kill the Old Gods without doing any damage to Azeroth like the TItans did. In the analogy the Titans are doctors and conventional cancer treatment.

99% of the playerbase doesn't give a fuck about that. They don't even know who the Old Gods are.

The rest of your reply has no connection to my post.

[DatToffer]

Just see the Eredar/draenei fiasco in TBC. Metzen forgot about the draenei in warcraft 3 lol. Complete bs, its when I saw they didnt give a crap about the lore.

There's something I'd like to share with you, about the pros and cons of a staff who forgets about lore, from the WoW Diary by John Staats.

Pros : It gives your team some space to express their own creativity and build their cohesive narration.
Cons : Years later, it becomes a mess if you don't keep track of everything done.

I don't think Metzen didn't care about the lore, I think he cared more about making it live than keeping consistent.

[Nefastus]

There's something I'd like to share with you, about the pros and cons of a staff who forgets about lore, from the WoW Diary by John Staats.

Pros : It gives your team some space to express their own creativity and build their cohesive narration.
Cons : Years later, it becomes a mess if you don't keep track of everything done.

I don't think Metzen didn't care about the lore, I think he cared more about making it live than keeping consistent.

Very interesting friend, thanks for sharing. I personally think Metzen got tired of Warcraft during vanilla wow development cycle. He didnt seen that interested post it, the eredar thing still bothers me. I still remember him posting at the forums how he forgot about all that. They could had made the draenei "prettier" but mess up them with the eredar was unecessary. They picked the demons, painted them blue and put a smile on them and said they were the draenei now. Plus the whole crystal thing and spaceships ugh.

[DatToffer]

Very interesting friend, thanks for sharing. I personally think Metzen got tired of Warcraft during vanilla wow development cycle. He didnt seen that interested post it, the eredar thing still bothers me. I still remember him posting at the forums how he forgot about all that. They could had made the draenei "prettier" but mess up them with the eredar was unecessary. They picked the demons, painted them blue and put a smile on them and said they were the draenei now. Plus the whole crystal thing and spaceships ugh.

I can't tell for sure, but maybe he didn't like the idea of BE Horde and Draenei Alliance. I think it was a marketing motivated decision (giving sham to ally and pal to Horde + giving a pretty race to the Horde and an exotic race to the Alliance), so maybe he wasn't on board with that and just patched it up without too much thoughts.

[Nefastus]

I can't tell for sure, but maybe he didn't like the idea of BE Horde and Draenei Alliance. I think it was a marketing motivated decision (giving sham to ally and pal to Horde + giving a pretty race to the Horde and an exotic race to the Alliance), so maybe he wasn't on board with that and just patched it up without too much thoughts.

I remember reading the idea was giving the pandas to alliance. They should had done that I think.