C'thun down

[Thage]

Because before Classic was released people saying that Classic raid was ultra hard were in every single thread. So we gotta remember how ignorant and biased those people were. Its fun to be proven right and shove it in your face.

Worth noting that for many of those people, their frame of reference was built off A Certain Private Server's* tuning, which said server's devs openly admitted was overtuned to keep their server challenging for experienced Vanilla private server players as well as to provide a tougher experience to bite into for players alienated by retail's easier level grind. There was a lot of guesswork involved on their end, too, as they had little if any of the server-side information to work with, and they'd always err on the side of making it a little bit harder.

Classic, on the flip side, is balanced around Blizzard's internal 1.12 client, which they refer to on a semi-regular basis if people mention something feeling off even though it matches up with the internal client. So for players used to A Certain Private Server's core (which quickly became the go-to core for Vanilla private servers after its devs released the core), Classic is noticeably easier, and strats that were developed in response to the increased difficulty in that server are crushing the historically-accurate 1.12 Classic difficulty balance.

* Note: I know typically discussing private servers is a no-no, and by no means am I attempting to promote their use. However, context is important in discussions like this and many of the Classic guilds crushing raids on release day have done so using strategies and experience cultivated on those servers. This context is important to keep in mind when many posters were discussing Classic's hypothetical difficulty, as even unintentionally, it can color one's memories of the original content. Even for those who never played on one, the experiences of those who did and their rhetoric dovetailing nicely with their memories of a more difficult experience (typically due to inexperience with the game) can form a sort of Mandela Effect.

What we're seeing now is just how much those private servers overtuned their content since they also used 1.12 as the building patch for balance and class design.

[Castration]

FYI, already deleted by these guys https://www.twitch.tv/cigarzz

your post is over 10 years too late.

nice try though?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.

Which it doesn't have, you forget the huge amount of people who raid LFR, as well as the many normal/HC raiders who do not use tools that allows 3rd party sites to track them.

And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later. It was just a case of players being new and ignorant.

[Majestic12]

I think he means that vanilla was harder than classic, not that classic is harder than retail. I hope that's what he means anyway. On the off chance that that's not the case, I'm gonna link a video of a real boss, for any classic players that just don't understand that retail and vanilla/classic are worlds apart in terms of difficulty.



And mythic Gul'dan isn't even considered to be one of the hardest of all time. Just a solid boss from a fairly recent expansion.

Yes, you got it right. I replied to the fact that he tried dispelling that Classic is not a true representation of Vanilla, which it isn't in terms of numbers.

[TJ]

Which it doesn't have, you forget the huge amount of people who raid LFR, as well as the many normal/HC raiders who do not use tools that allows 3rd party sites to track them.

And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later.

Nope. Ragnaros was different and quite a bit harder. There are other examples, but I can't recall them off the top of my head. Not to mention how the debuff limit and talents have altered the difficulty.

[OrcsRLame]

Yes, you got it right. I replied to the fact that he tried dispelling that Classic is not a true representation of Vanilla, which it isn't in terms of numbers.

The difference between vanilla and classic is really really really tiny.

If we got a progressive patch cycle, MC would have been a little harder due to the weaker talents. Most notably Bloodthirst being not a thing. The biggest change with AQ40 would be that rogues would do less damage which would just mean that top guilds would bring less of them.

You're talking about a ~20-30% overall damage nerf in the most extreme cases. Still enough to 1 phase Rag easily. Still enough to do all the stupid bullshit we saw in classic.

[Adramalech]

Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.

My bad on that, apologies. I still don't see how they're any different mechanically though. They're literally the same game, any potential nerfs between C'thun and 1.12 would be on numbers as far as I recall from memory. Surely you're not counting C'thun's bugs being fixed as mechanical challenge being removed.

If you want to go fetch patch notes to prove that, be my guest, but I don't feel invested enough in that :\

[RickJamesLich]

Of course the people who already did it could do it again but that isn't what's happening in classic. People who never touched vanilla are easily clearing raids in classic. I assure you I could take my scuffed mythic raid team and we would smash classic raids without an issue. Classic raids and classic classes are just mechanically much simpler than they are in retail WoW its not really debatable. Compare the rotation of any retail class to their classic counterpart. Compare the mechanic list of any raid boss is Classic to Mythic Azshara.

Classic is logistically difficult. You have to organize large groups, there is much more limited gear, and everything takes more time. 4 horseman wasn't hard because of mechanics it was hard because you "needed" (we'll see if you still do) 8 tanks. If you took a cutting edge guild from retail I assure you they could kill every bit of content in classic I very much doubt the same is true the other way.

If you know anything about classic, the guilds going for these world's fastest clears have all played the private servers multiple times. Guilds like Apes and Grizzly are easily recognizable, these aren't brand new guys - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any raiding guilds that haven't had a good amount of players that were on the private servers. Not to mention that in the rare occasion that they do bring in someone brand new, they tell the people what to do on the encounters, where to go for gear, etc.

I'm not disagreeing that the retail raids do have more complex mechanics than classic, that being said if players have a chance to do the mechanics for months ahead of time, it's not going to be nearly as difficult to kill stuff the 20th time around. How often do you see a guild that gets a world first on a certain boss be unable to kill the same boss the following week? I can't imagine too often. Also the inverse is true, I was a classic player and was able to kill hard mode/mythic bosses. I wouldn't say it was a cake walk but in many instances the concept of difficulty is over stated.

[OrcsRLame]

If you know anything about classic, the guilds going for these world's fastest clears have all played the private servers multiple times. Guilds like Apes and Grizzly are easily recognizable, these aren't brand new guys - in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any raiding guilds that haven't had a good amount of players that were on the private servers. Not to mention that in the rare occasion that they do bring in someone brand new, they tell the people what to do on the encounters, where to go for gear, etc.

I'm not disagreeing that the retail raids do have more complex mechanics than classic, that being said if players have a chance to do the mechanics for months ahead of time, it's not going to be nearly as difficult to kill stuff the 20th time around. How often do you see a guild that gets a world first on a certain boss be unable to kill the same boss the following week? I can't imagine too often. Also the inverse is true, I was a classic player and was able to kill hard mode/mythic bosses. I wouldn't say it was a cake walk but in many instances the concept of difficulty is over stated.

It's uncommon for guilds to be unable to kill the end boss the week after they kill it, but the first 5 or so rekills are usually a many hours long clown fiesta. And retail usually has mechanics that buff player gear every week aside from your typical gear drops from raid.

[Majestic12]

And Vanilla had the same mechanics as Classic, there's nothing that's more difficult about them than what came later. It was just a case of players being new and ignorant.

You obviously don't know the details and how patch progression was a massive deal in vanilla.

For instance, the plus spell damage gear on greens, which was bis gear in many places, wouldn't even exist. Revised talent trees the same and every single item in the dungeons being in their final form in terms of itemization Kronos style. The numbers for what you can pull off in Classic compared to Vanilla aren't even remotely the same.

Handwaving everything and saying that players were trash and that's it is so ignorant when you look at the actual details of the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The difference between vanilla and classic is really really really tiny.

If we got a progressive patch cycle, MC would have been a little harder due to the weaker talents. Most notably Bloodthirst being not a thing. The biggest change with AQ40 would be that rogues would do less damage which would just mean that top guilds would bring less of them.

You're talking about a ~20-30% overall damage nerf in the most extreme cases. Still enough to 1 phase Rag easily. Still enough to do all the stupid bullshit we saw in classic.

Was about to type it out but figured you did it already, so... This!

No surprise though that people are trying to make the excuse that Classic isn't Vanilla now that Classic is being steamrolled, contrary to what was imagined by oh so many vocal people.

Even if they released Vanilla today, fresh slate, it'd be faced by modern-day gamers and steamrolled as a joke. Ain't nothing more mechanically difficult about it than modern game bosses.

[Ezyah]

Did you even read the quote? He's trying to dispel that Vanilla was harder than Classic, which it was, objectively.

I didn't say shit about Retail except that it has fewer raiders than Classic. Which says a lot by the way.

So what you were saying that classic was mechanically harder than vanilla ? I would understand the numbers ok but MECHANICS ? They are literally the same .

[Majestic12]

The difference between vanilla and classic is really really really tiny.

If we got a progressive patch cycle, MC would have been a little harder due to the weaker talents. Most notably Bloodthirst being not a thing. The biggest change with AQ40 would be that rogues would do less damage which would just mean that top guilds would bring less of them.

You're talking about a ~20-30% overall damage nerf in the most extreme cases. Still enough to 1 phase Rag easily. Still enough to do all the stupid bullshit we saw in classic.

Talents aren't the only thing. Itemization is massive as I highlighted above.

For the record, I am in APES and I participated in the world first race. Yes, we would still have cleared it, but the difficulty level would've been higher. Look at our Rag kill and that's with all the stuff I mentioned.

[OrcsRLame]

You obviously don't know the details and how patch progression was a massive deal in vanilla.

For instance, the plus spell damage gear on greens, which was bis gear in many places, wouldn't even exist. Revised talent trees the same and every single item in the dungeons being in their final form in terms of itemization Kronos style. The numbers for what you can pull off in Classic compared to Vanilla aren't even remotely the same.

Handwaving everything and saying that players were trash and that's it is so ignorant when you look at the actual details of the game.

Here's Onyxia being done with no gear and no world buffs in classic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98N1GTfrCJk

I wonder if they could do it with no talents. Onyxia has the same tuning as her original release. She never got any significant nerfs. But yeah it's the +spell power gear.

[Majestic12]

So what you were saying that classic was mechanically harder than vanilla ? I would understand the numbers ok but MECHANICS ? They are literally the same .

Other way around. Vanilla harder than Classic.

Mechanics are what they are aiming for, not what it actually is. The most recent example is today when they pulled C'thun and he didn't even eye beam. There have been tons of issues. In the first MC, the dogs weren't even behaving properly.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's Onyxia being done with no gear and no world buffs in classic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98N1GTfrCJk

I wonder if they could do it with no talents. Onyxia has the same tuning as her original release. She never got any significant nerfs. But yeah it's the +spell power gear.

You picked the worst example. When we did world first Onyxia, we said we didn't even need 40 people for it and we were told we could go to bed if we wanted to. Onyxia was always a cakewalk due to her special encounter.

Also, do you not see the buffs? They are flasked and potted out of their asses.

[OrcsRLame]

Other way around. Vanilla harder than Classic.

Mechanics are what they are aiming for, not what it actually is. The most recent example is today when they pulled C'thun and he didn't even eye beam. There have been tons of issues. In the first MC, the dogs weren't even behaving properly.

- - - Updated - - -



You picked the worst example. When we did world first Onyxia, we said we didn't even need 40 people for it and we were told we could go to bed if we wanted to. Onyxia was always a cakewalk due to her special encounter.

Also, do you not see the buffs? They are flasked and potted out of their asses.

They still have no gear and no world buffs. Flasks and pots have been mandatory in retail raid culture since Cataclysm.

Onyxia is not 55+ ilvl harder than Rag. Not even close. No gear, no world buffs, and world buffs were usable in vanilla raiding, it's just that most people outside of top guilds didn't bother.

That was their first try and they downed her in about 9 minutes. I bet you a serious progression guild from retail could do that boss with no gear, consumes, world buffs or talents in under 50 wipes.

And the guild that did this said they've been theorycrafting MC and Rag wouldn't even be difficult and that other parts of MC are more of potential roadblocks.

And yes C'thun's eye beam was bugged in classic. It's already been hotfixed, before NA even got to it. These couple of outliers, bugs that got fixed quickly are not enough to prove a general trend that classic has easier mechanics than vanilla.

This is the first ever recorded kill of Onyxia. Look how fucking bad those people are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WHd...ture=emb_title

They wait 2 minutes to start dpsing the boss because their tank literally doesn't use abilities. The pov shaman is a fucking clicker. With their small amount of debuff slots they have useless garbage on the boss like serpent sting.

That is the caliber of player you're talking about when it comes to early vanilla. These guys were some of the best for their time. And then you wonder why people do 3x as much dps in classic.

Edit: I find it funny that someone in Apes doesn't know the difference between world buffs and consumes.

[Outofmana]

I only have to look at my grobbulus vid of back in the day to see how pathetic of a holy priest I was, I used 1 spell (flash heal) and 50% of the time I let the tank run out of my healing range and have my spell cancelled. Classic, vanilla, pvt servers, bla bla, it's all easy and always has been.

[Vakna]

People actually said this for top guilds too though. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but people said that for AQ, and for the other classic raids released too.

Yup, there is literally threads every tier saying it will last longer this time because "this is when it gets hard" and they are always referring to first kills.

[Majestic12]

Edit: I find it funny that someone in Apes doesn't know the difference between world buffs and consumes.

You make no sense. Where did I ever talk about world buffs?

I'm starting to think you don't even know what a buff is. Do you?

[OrcsRLame]

You make no sense. Where did I ever talk about world buffs?

I'm starting to think you don't even know what a buff is. Do you?

I said they used no world buffs. Your reply to that was, "Also, do you not see the buffs? They are flasked and potted out of their asses."

I concluded from that that you did not know the difference between world buffs and consumes since I never commented on their use of consumes so your comment would be a complete non-sequitur and not a valid rebuttal to what I said unless you were equating consumes with world buffs.