LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[RoKPaNda]

There isn't one single change that they could make that would kill this game faster than the removal of LFR. The LFR players would quit and not come back, and overall raid quality would go down. As someone who has been raiding cutting edge content for entirely too long I can tell you that once they added LFR and could justify more resources because more people were seeing raids the quality of content skyrocketed. As a Mythic raider LFR is a total positive for me, it impacts me in zero negative way. It's a positive for the people its intended for. Why get rid of it? Those people are never going to do any form of raiding where the community plays gatekeeper.

[Rustov]

i guess it depends on the individual. LFR Also removes one bar that keeps a lot of people out; performance anxiety. I mean, you have to be exceptionally bad, and an asshole, to get kicked from LFR. Normal raids, depending on the host, have standards that some players don’t want to be held to. I know this sounds like a negative thing, but jumping into organized raiding alone can be intimidating for some people.

My personal experience is that Normal Pugs are subject to a huge number of vagaries that can kill the run or arbitrarily exclude your entry. LFR helps me see the content without the stress of tanks AFK/DCing, pug leaders being toxic, addon-gating, endless wipefests, etc. What's chafing to me and other LFR regulars is how these arguments are always made from the perspective of hardcore raiders. Addon use, mechanics knowledge, gear requirements, internet stability, time commitment, pre-existing gearing, and more- all these things they take for granted and then question why folks without the means/drive to equal them prefer a watered-down experience like LFR.

Granted, though, LFRs role in the gearing process has been annihilated by world questing. I wouldn't advocate anything that would force normal raiders to LFR, like ilvl buff, but something should be done to normalize two equally trivial gearing options. Increased drop rates, maybe, or a pick of LFR loot from the weekly chest.

[taishar68]

My personal experience is that Normal Pugs are subject to a huge number of vagaries that can kill the run or arbitrarily exclude your entry. LFR helps me see the content without the stress of tanks AFK/DCing, pug leaders being toxic, addon-gating, endless wipefests, etc. What's chafing to me and other LFR regulars is how these arguments are always made from the perspective of hardcore raiders. Addon use, mechanics knowledge, gear requirements, internet stability, time commitment, pre-existing gearing, and more- all these things they take for granted and then question why folks without the means/drive to equal them prefer a watered-down experience like LFR.

Granted, though, LFRs role in the gearing process has been annihilated by world questing. I wouldn't advocate anything that would force normal raiders to LFR, like ilvl buff, but something should be done to normalize two equally trivial gearing options. Increased drop rates, maybe, or a pick of LFR loot from the weekly chest.

Well said, and I like the idea of adding a chest drop for LFR.

Another aspect of organized pugs that will put people off is the simple phrase “know the fights”, a perfectly reasonable request, but as someone who was unable to do anything above LFR for the bulk of BfA (I’ve been a Heroic level raider for much of my WoW experience), I can tell you that’s a tough thing, because when you don’t know a fight in today’s raids, you cause wipes, or you watch the fight from the comfort of the cold ground your corpse is resting on.

Rare is the pug I’ve seen that says “come on in, we’ll show you the ropes”. Now, in complete fairness, I have not tried very hard to join pugs at the start of a tier, so that obviously weighs heavily on that factor. But it plays a role.

[Depakote]

LFR is fine, remove mythic raiding seeing as so few people do it. Return to 3 difficulties of raiding.

[taishar68]

LFR is fine, remove mythic raiding seeing as so few people do it. Return to 3 difficulties of raiding.

Mythic needs to stay for many reasons, but two that might not jump out at you are:

The attention that the Mythic hunt garners puts a lot of eyes on the game and publicity never hurts.

Also, despite what some see as toxicity from the player base, we need Mythic as an Everest, something to aspire to, even if we don’t actually make it there. Just my opinion.

[Firebert]

The attention that the Mythic hunt garners puts a lot of eyes on the game and publicity never hurts.

Having Method achieve World First Queen Aszhara Mythic, and then for them to then go on and collapse amid sexual misconduct allegations and breaches of the ToS by illegally buying gold, is great publicity...

[grandgato]

I think all four difficulties have their place, and audience. Raiding seems to be at a pretty good spot right now, imo.

[Accendor]

It never had a place in WoW.

[taishar68]

Having Method achieve World First Queen Aszhara Mythic, and then for them to then go on and collapse amid sexual misconduct allegations and breaches of the ToS by illegally buying gold, is great publicity...

i know you’re going for low hanging fruit but of course that has nothing to do with the hunt for World first.

[arkanon]

Having Method achieve World First Queen Aszhara Mythic, and then for them to then go on and collapse amid sexual misconduct allegations and breaches of the ToS by illegally buying gold, is great publicity...

Those allegations are in no way unique to mythic raiding - so this statement doesn't work. They also drink water - does that bring bad publicity to water?

[TheRevenantHero]

Leave LFR alone. It's not hurting the game. It doesn't stop you from doing the raids yourself. If you hate LFR so much then don't queue for it. It's that simple.

[arkanon]

i know you’re going for low hanging fruit but of course that has nothing to do with the hunt for World first.

Exactly - trying to link the two things is just desperate and clutching at straws.

- - - Updated - - -

Leave LFR alone. It's not hurting the game. It doesn't stop you from doing the raids yourself. If you hate LFR so much then don't queue for it. It's that simple.

I lost any interest in LFR a few expansion ago. Every so often i feel the urge to take a newly lvld tank or healer for a blast through LFR, but i gain no enjoyment from it, so i just dont do it. Doesnt bother me if others want to do it though, as you said, its not hurting the game, and it doesnt hurt me.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

It never had a place in WoW.

Oh yea. That opinion's been proven wrong over and over and over.

[Varitok]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

They should remove Mythic then. Far more people do LFR and the amount of Dev time that goes into it is disproportionate to the amount of player who do it.

People are so ridiculous when it comes to asking this time and time again. Ion himself already said in the WoD blizzcon (I believe it was that one) that Raids are only at the scale they are today because of Raid Finder.

[Jastall]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

Yeah, like happened in WoD when they gutted LFR so it wasn't worth the button press to queue for it anymore.

Na, wait, that's not what happened, LFR players just quit because they do LFR specifically not to have to deal with the hassles of normal+ raiding.

[Relapses]

Also, despite what some see as toxicity from the player base, we need Mythic as an Everest, something to aspire to, even if we don’t actually make it there. Just my opinion.

It's not really an opinion. It's common sense. Mythic raiding brings a ton of exposure for WoW. I mean fuck, even shit like the MDI still brings a lot of exposure for the game. It's absolutely bonkers there are people on this forum who think that Blizzard is going to suddenly remove this.

People who campaign for the removal of Mythic are just as ridiculous as the ones who want to remove the LFR.

[Firebert]

i know you’re going for low hanging fruit but of course that has nothing to do with the hunt for World first.

Sorry, I may have missed a few steps.

Generally, World Firsts are captured by raid groups with full organisations behind them (a la LoL's CLG, TSM, etc.). You claimed that having Mythic raiding stick around generates publicity for the game, and hence it must be inevitably through those organisations. If those organisations are subsequently embroiled in controversy, you must ask yourself (as a dev) if you actually want to risk intertwining the game's image and potentially these kinds of players, as these organisations are usually born out of the content you provide.

Those allegations are in no way unique to mythic raiding - so this statement doesn't work. They also drink water - does that bring bad publicity to water?

See above; disappointed that you had to resort to absurdities as oppose to asking for an explanation.

[TheRevenantHero]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

That is quite literally how you get people to leave the game in droves. Forcing people to group up nowadays will just aggravate people and cause them to leave. You can't force people to be friends. Especially not in a community as toxic as WoW.

[Dervrak]

I think that ship has long since sailed. Blizzard has stated they are comfortable with LFR because it gives casual players a chance to see raid content that they would never normally be able to experience. I seem to recall they released some data back around the time LFR was introduced that only something like 17% of players experienced current tier raid content and felt it was a waste of resources to put so much work into something a majority of the player base would never even experience. Also with LFR having been in the game for 10+ years, the enormous tantrum that the casual player base would throw if it was removed would make the current argument over the coming elimination of XP boosts (heirloom gear) look like a cap gun next to a nuclear bomb.

[cuafpr]

I don't think they should remove it. That said, they should and seem to have been making it unnecessary to use if you do actual raiding.

edit: I'm actually gonna remove my Destiny 2 example, since maybe they have added LFR since I played or made it easier.

should have left the D2 example cause their "guided game" is pretty bad... the lack of LFR in D2 is my biggest grip with the game cause they lock story behind non-queable content.


IF wow went to a similar model i'd play even less and maybe get a carry towards the end of each tier. With my life how it is atm organized raiding is out the window. LFR allows me to log in queue up run 3-4 bosses and be done for the night. The only way normal could ever do the same would be if normal raid where broken into 3-4 instances per raid and I don't see that going over well. Also it would be a queue not group finder.

In short yes LFR has a place, yes some people run it exclusively.