Toxic M+ Leavers

[getupkid55]

It's pretty simple. There are two types of people running M+. Those who are there for completion/loot, and those who are there for score.

If you invite someone who wants to time the dungeon for score, they are not gonna feel the need to stick around when things go south. People who want loot or completion for weekly chest, are usually gonna stick it out (within reason.)

You should probably make sure everyone is on the same page before you start.

If I'm going for completion (running with buddies who are not as 1337), I generally avoid inviting people with high IO (higher than necessary for the key level) for this reason... ie. don't invite someone with 2.5k+ score to do a +15 or higher with your friends that are all under 2k score - the second anything goes wrong, the group will full apart.

And on the flip side, if I'm pushing keys.. I don't invite said friends, or any pug who is low scored.

[Bloodyleech]

Okay cool, so lets take bloodlust, it explicitly states it increases your haste, but not your damage. So bloodlust doesnt increase your output? Here i thought every time hero popped i was doing so swell

Ouch, reading this actually killed parts of my brain.
It's about the wording, my dear friend.
Obviously increases more haste your damage.
But CC'ing an enemy is by definition not an interruption, it's controlling. Otherwise there would be no different wording between CC and Interrupt.
Controlling an enemy stops the action he does - if it is interruptable or not isn't important. There are action that can't be interrupted, but you can stop these actions via CC (Crowd CONTROL). Same as you can interrupt some spell casts that you can't CC.

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All healers have stops for casts. Not specifically interrupts but they have stops. Usually 2+ for each class. Stuns/pushbacks/blinds/fear etc.

That's right. But here are people that don't know the difference between stopping an action or interrupting a spell.

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It's pretty simple. There are two types of people running M+. Those who are there for completion/loot, and those who are there for score.

If you invite someone who wants to time the dungeon for score, they are not gonna feel the need to stick around when things go south. People who want loot or completion for weekly chest, are usually gonna stick it out (within reason.)

You should probably make sure everyone is on the same page before you start.

If I'm going for completion (running with buddies who are not as 1337), I generally avoid inviting people with high IO (higher than necessary for the key level) for this reason... ie. don't invite someone with 2.5k+ score to do a +15 or higher with your friends that are all under 2k score - the second anything goes wrong, the group will full apart.

And on the flip side, if I'm pushing keys.. I don't invite said friends, or any pug who is low scored.

Crazy shit is that some people want to run 16s+ for gear. At this level the "only Score counts" starts, as you can get 465 Gear even in 14s (weekly obv. 15s).

[Amazingdom]

Ouch, reading this actually killed parts of my brain.
It's about the wording, my dear friend.
Obviously increases more haste your damage.
But CC'ing an enemy is by definition not an interruption, it's controlling. Otherwise there would be no different wording between CC and Interrupt.
Controlling an enemy stops the action he does - if it is interruptable or not isn't important. There are action that can't be interrupted, but you can stop these actions via CC (Crowd CONTROL). Same as you can interrupt some spell casts that you can't CC.

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That's right. But here are people that don't know the difference between stopping an action or interrupting a spell.

Cool now we are on the same boat, if

person a) starts casting
Now person b) uses typhoon

Doesnt he interrupt his cast?

[Very rare pepe]

That's right. But here are people that don't know the difference between stopping an action or interrupting a spell.

God help those people.

[Wuusah]

It's pretty simple. There are two types of people running M+. Those who are there for completion/loot, and those who are there for score.

If you invite someone who wants to time the dungeon for score, they are not gonna feel the need to stick around when things go south. People who want loot or completion for weekly chest, are usually gonna stick it out (within reason.)

You should probably make sure everyone is on the same page before you start. If I'm going for completion, I generally avoid inviting people with high IO (higher than necessary for the key level) for this reason.

Exactly. The whole problem starts with people inviting those with the highest rio score in the hopes of getting carried and then they get pissed because their "carry" jumped ship. Invite players with a similar amount of experience and with the same reasons to go into those dungeons and you won't have "toxic leavers".

I know it's enticing to invite the 3k rio guy into your +15 run but for you that +15 might be "getting my +15 for the week" or "hopefully that one item drops that I still need". Meanwhile for the 3k rio guy that +15 is a "fast echo farm" run. The moment it stops being a fast run is the moment that guy leaves the group.

[Bloodyleech]

Cool now we are on the same boat, if

person a) starts casting
Now person b) uses typhoon

Doesnt he interrupt his cast?

No, he stops the cast via a controlling ability. It's not an interruption.
Does Typhoon have "interrupts spell/action/whatever" in it's discription? No? I thought so.

[Amazingdom]

No, he stops the cast via a controlling ability. It's not an interruption.

Ok so, every so called interruption has in their tooltip; stop spellcasting,which doesnt mean its interruption and then silence them. Isnt it then a silence?

[Bloodyleech]

Ok so, every so called interruption has in their tooltip; stop spellcasting,which doesnt mean its interruption and then silence them. Isnt it then a silence?

It's both. A silence and an interruption. Why can it only be one of those? The interruption itself blocks the use of THIS spellschool - while the silence stops all spells (silence a Paladin and he feels like he's just been interrupted, nothing more - silencing a mage is worse, because he is not only blocked from casting this school, but from ANY school) BUT the silence can still be stopped (i.e. disspell)

[Tziva]

Knock it off with the semantics bickering.

[ID811717]

DW I'm assuming the people complaining about this behaviour can't time complete anything above a 15. I agree with you, at some point after 15s, people don't need the loot, so if the key is going to the graveyard because of stupid plays, i'm not staying.

There's a big caveat to this though: it's not about the key level. The key level is never high enough to forgo basic human decency. Likewise, someone being a mechanically bad player is never a reason to forgo basic human decency.

Even if the run was advertised as "+15 weekly fiesta, boosting 2 friends, be ready to stay for 5h" - I would not hold any grudge if someone wrote "sorry I can not handle this after all" and quit the group. At any point. For any reason. It's just a game, shit happens. It's not a problem if people are civil and polite.

In contrast, if someone quits the group without saying a word - they are basically treating the other 4 people as bots to farm their score, and have no consideration beyond that. I don't want to play with such people again. But they are not worth my time: I won't argue with them and I won't actively try to remember their names.

People who showed any sign of hostility prior to silently quitting - those go on my blacklist, and I will make an effort to not play with them ever again.

I have been pugging high end M+ keys since mid-Legion, and I have hundreds of people on my blacklist. You would be surprised how your past actions can boomerang back to hit you in the most unexpected moment. This becomes especially important once you reach sufficiently high keys (like +24-25s right now) and start meeting the same people in pugs over and over again.

At M+15 if I have to hard cast a heal within the first few minutes of pulling trash, there's a problem. If I can't focus on dps'ing while occasionally throwing out spot heals, there's a problem. If I have to stop my rotation to do some random CD heal fest, I know it's gonna be rough and I start weighting the pros and cons.

Go watch a group who knows how to not get hit by shit, and understand mechanics and try and find something to heal in that group. meanwhile, get into a group where only two people know what's going on, it's NIGHT AND DAY different.

You do enough runs with both outcomes, you start to see a pattern. Everyone would have you think it's your fault, but in reality it's the people blaming you who is at fault. 9 times outta 10. Saying 'you're the worst X i've ever seen' provides nothing but an insight into that person. You see someone like that, run. You see someone saying 'this week's affixes are rough for tanks/heals' LEAVE. Why, because they're already telling you their excuse as to why they didnt time. There are tons of red flags I've learned about. I don't care how long this thread gets, I'll stick with my experiences and the knowledge I've gathered doing it. If you see someone micromanaging pulls, talking about strats before group is full, etc. LEAVE.

1. If your DPS is needed to time a +15 key (or even like a +20 key), that's a problem in itself. It means something is fundamentally lacking in the group.
2. Avoiding hard runs with mediocre groups is good only if you care about getting a weekly chest done. If you actually want to play for the sake of challenge and push high keys, then these runs are the best training grounds for becoming a much better player. It lets you experience a lot of shitty situations. Any fiesta situation first tests whether you can think quickly on your own feet, and use your full toolkit in creative ways to save the day... And after the pull is over, a good players reflects on what they could have done better in that situation. (This is why the more hardcore players might be recording or streaming their content... It helps to go back to rewind and analyze the situation very carefully). It applies to all dungeon roles. But to me, as a healer, avoiding mediocre groups is equivalent to trying to get boosted. If a healer truly wants to improve and rise to the top, they should be excited when they get another try at carrying an entire dungeon group.
3. When you do embrace the challenge of mediocre groups, and do your best at trying to carry the group... Well, I'll just say I have been getting heaps of praise and close to 0 attacks on my gameplay in thousands of pug groups across the years. Players really appreciate that instead of stopping to tilt and flame someone, I take any extended bursting (or other hiccups) as a personal challenge that has to be resolved against any odds. Me failing to out-heal mega-extended bursting is my fault for not being as good as R1 raider.io healer yet, first and foremost. It's also a fault of the group for over-extending, but that's irrelevant to my own gameplay.

Basically. in pugs you should spend all time thinking how to improve your own gameplay, not look for pointless excuses based on the flawed gameplay of the 4 other characters. You do not control those characters anyway, so it's a negative mindset, a waste of time, and ultimately just an attempt to shoot yourself in the foot.

[scelero]

Add semantics to the list of reason to just leave a M+.

I would've left a 5 man if we got into this discussion.

[FiveDkp]

Basically. in pugs you should spend all time thinking how to improve your own gameplay, not look for pointless excuses based on the flawed gameplay of the 4 other characters. You do not control those characters anyway, so it's a negative mindset, a waste of time, and ultimately just an attempt to shoot yourself in the foot.

Agreed - lots of people in here who clearly constantly RQ keys simply because they top DPS.

[Zuido]

This is the reason I quit previously, without guildies, nothing gets done because everyone's so fucking toxic.

Dude wth is wrong with you? Judging the whole playerbase based on 3 runs? also, what im getting from reading your msg is that either you messed up and dont want to admit it (doing low dps, failing mechanics ,said something stupid and 1 or the other made someone wanna leave because they didnt feel like they wanna carry you through the dungeon or let you finish the dunegon because they think you are toxic) or you are completely oblivious (did someone say something bad that made 1 or 2 people leave, did someone else mess up, did someone else do less damage etc). Get your act together, no one in the world has ever said that finding good friends to do activities with is going to be easy and it just goes to show that your are either too lazy to find those people or your skin is just so thin that it literally takes 1 person to make you think the whole world is bad. Like cmon man, you can be better than this. I understand what you feel, but let me tell you that its not like that. I had a thought running through my head for years that there are noone out there who understands me or wants to play the game the same way i do. Thats wrong and really bad to think that way. Running through tall grass can be hard the 1st time, but 2nd,3rd and 4th will be much easier. Dont give up that easly.

[Sevryn]

I think whatever R.i.o score you get for completing the dungeon you should also get the same amount subtracted if you leave before let's say 20 deaths

[ClassicPeon]

Io should say if people has left and how many times.

Should be viewed as the first person that leaves the group

If you advertise a group as 15+ it means on time. Otherwise its simply 15 or "chill run we dont care about time" or something like that.

If you then proceed to fuck up so badly that timing it is impossible while showing the group you can do 20k dps then you are the one at fault for falsely advertising a key.

Me leaving that is perfectly justified.

[Ange]

Here comes the sad truth:

If a higher R.IO player joins a medicre group and can't single-handedly BOOST the whole group to compensate the lack of experience - it just means that the "HIGH R.IO" player cheesed his/her way into rating with easy weeks or got boosted.

While you can all argue that its a toxic player, in reality its way more sad, because its just a mediocre player with cheesed rating so he fails as soon as the experience from a specific rating is demanded.

Happens a lot with FOTM classes/specs that got simply carried UP in rating because of the high demand for specific comps and those players simply cant carry their own weight in normal groups.

While its a minor annoyance if someone like that joins/leaves your weekly-15, you can be sure that those kind of player will at some point get the message either way about their lack of gaming skills and will just pause/leave the game for the better.

This is something that was allways in WoW since Vanilla days. If a progression raider with gear joined a bad UBRS run, some just moaned and left and some carried a 3 groups of players with impressive solo play and/or gave constructive feedback to just make it work.

15 years later and its the same in the game, nothing changed. Skilled players can pull not only their own weight but carry a group even if it strugles while others that simply play medicore/bad need the pull of a group to get anything done. Its funny and sad if you think about it, how little the typical players in WoW changes even in 15years, its like a comedy show with the same old characters.

[ClassicPeon]

Here comes the sad truth:

If a higher R.IO player joins a medicre group and can't single-handedly BOOST the whole group to compensate the lack of experience - it just means that the "HIGH R.IO" player cheesed his/her way into rating with easy weeks or got boosted.

While you can all argue that its a toxic player, in reality its way more sad, because its just a mediocre player with cheesed rating so he fails as soon as the experience from a specific rating is demanded.

Happens a lot with FOTM classes/specs that got simply carried UP in rating because of the high demand for specific comps and those players simply cant carry their own weight in normal groups.

While its a minor annoyance if someone like that joins/leaves your weekly-15, you can be sure that those kind of player will at some point get the message either way about their lack of gaming skills and will just pause/leave the game for the better.

This is something that was allways in WoW since Vanilla days. If a progression raider with gear joined a bad UBRS run, some just moaned and left and some carried a 3 groups of players with impressive solo play and/or gave constructive feedback to just make it work.

15 years later and its the same in the game, nothing changed. Skilled players can pull not only their own weight but carry a group even if it strugles while others that simply play medicore/bad need the pull of a group to get anything done. Its funny and sad if you think about it, how little the typical players in WoW changes even in 15years, its like a comedy show with the same old characters.

What a load of bullocks. You sound like someone who invited a 3k player to a +15 and then failed it cus you where all doing 20k dps and then blamed him.

Anything below +20 is determined by three things.

1. tank knowing route(this is the prime)
2. Dps who can dps
3. Healer who isnt yolo dying 24/7

1 good dps cant always carry 2 bad dps.

[Azharok]

There's a big caveat to this though: it's not about the key level. The key level is never high enough to forgo basic human decency. Likewise, someone being a mechanically bad player is never a reason to forgo basic human decency.

Even if the run was advertised as "+15 weekly fiesta, boosting 2 friends, be ready to stay for 5h" - I would not hold any grudge if someone wrote "sorry I can not handle this after all" and quit the group. At any point. For any reason. It's just a game, shit happens. It's not a problem if people are civil and polite.

In contrast, if someone quits the group without saying a word - they are basically treating the other 4 people as bots to farm their score, and have no consideration beyond that. I don't want to play with such people again. But they are not worth my time: I won't argue with them and I won't actively try to remember their names.

People who showed any sign of hostility prior to silently quitting - those go on my blacklist, and I will make an effort to not play with them ever again.

I have been pugging high end M+ keys since mid-Legion, and I have hundreds of people on my blacklist. You would be surprised how your past actions can boomerang back to hit you in the most unexpected moment. This becomes especially important once you reach sufficiently high keys (like +24-25s right now) and start meeting the same people in pugs over and over again.

I run into way less toxic people in higher keys than in low keys. This is my personnal experience : MOST of the time my higher keys (19-20-21s) are run in a 4man premade and we look for a 5th. We don't time all our runs (because derps happens) but no one is toxic about it, and the pug usually is pretty cool.

My argument was more "if everyone's an asshole, maybe their not". If you cannot time keys while pugging either :

1) you just suck and are throwing the key/trying to do something way above your skill lvl (regardless of IO score).

2) you don't know how to weed out bad players.

3) you are just unlucky with pugs.

I wouldn't join a "weekly 5h no leaver" to begin with, however I do not want to join a group and find out mid-run that we are actually carrying a party member (if we can time it IDC but if HE/SHE's the reason we are not making it imma be pissed, I wont leave unless we wipe over and over but I won't be happy about it).

I'm always polite and civil, I've been playing since Vanilla so I remember the old days of "having a reputation" before LFD and cross server grouping was a thing.

I think the main complaint from OP is for sub 15 keys, that still reward loot that is valuable to most players. After that point, I would understand if someone left if the key was a deplete fest since everyone is chasing score. But they better be nice about it.

[Wuusah]

What a load of bullocks. You sound like someone who invited a 3k player to a +15 and then failed it cus you where all doing 20k dps and then blamed him.

Anything below +20 is determined by three things.

1. tank knowing route(this is the prime)
2. Dps who can dps
3. Healer who isnt yolo dying 24/7

1 good dps cant always carry 2 bad dps.

What is a good route for Atal these days? I ran two Atal runs this week with two different routes and it feels like they both suck. The "good" route involves some cheese where one of the dps lure mobs away from obelisks and that's not something that you can reliably do in pugs. What is a good Atal route that pugs won't mess up?

[Arainie]

Just browsing through this thread validates every fear that humanity is still a lost race. The pure selfishness and unwillingness to help anyone but yourself in some of you is utterly disgusting to say the least.