I'm not that bothered by borrowed power tbh. And I don't really see how Blizz could've solved the problem of never-ending progression any other way down the line with future expansions.
I'm not that bothered by borrowed power tbh. And I don't really see how Blizz could've solved the problem of never-ending progression any other way down the line with future expansions.
Last edited by Fixxit the Gnome; 2020-08-04 at 02:30 PM.
- Dare not to sleep -
It's not really greater deepth since only "the meta" is of importance(Sadly), one of the reasons they gave up on the "old talent system". I will also state this is a bad comment due i like more deepth based on player choice and not meta(i just wished it was that simple)
It is better to make sure the class is good/fun to play to begin with then you make it even more fun by adding to it like crits pushing buttens faster ec.t
You make the choice to go meta or not. You make the choice to raid Mythic, and have to accept everything that comes with it, including the meta. I made the choice to not do those things, and the game has been infinitely more fun for me. I can still clear heroic, M+15s ect, and have no interest in ever doing mythic level content again.
I stopped hardcore following the meta at the start of BFA. I still try to aim for the meta, I was once a hardcore mythic raider so I don't like to perform below what's expected in the content I'm in, but that's just the thing, a M+15 isn't hard, for me, and even if I'm only min/maxed 90% I'll still perform up to par and not get carried. If I find a playstyle more fun and still effective enough to clear what I want, I'll use it, because the meta can suck it and it's a terrible way to play the game.
Not everyone is obsessed with playing super perfectly min/maxed all the time. Those people are actually a minority. The larger playerbase, casuals, are just using things they find fun, and that's what I'm doing now. Infinite stars isn't meta for my class, but I use it, because I like it, and wreck people who are clearly try-harding more than me.
Basically, the depth is there, you just stay in the shallows because you think that it's necessary to complete content. Granted, if you're actually pushing M+ or doing high end mythic raiding it very much is, but once again very, very few people are.
Borrowed power is how you get new stuff every expansion and new progression without it leading to bloat.
Best part for me every expansion is the fact I have progression again.
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Yep. its just not practical to keep adding to the base classes every expansion. At some point they will have to do a class overhaul and remove bloat. Why make extra work for yourselves a couple years down the road when borrowed power effectively achieves what people want? New player progression and new powers for every expansion.
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see the occasional expansion with more permanent powers added. like prestige classes or something, but i don't expect it to happen with every expansion that comes out.
Your viewpoint is pretty heavily influenced by CORRUPTION.
This system is making the game piss easy right now. You could absolutely not clear a M+15 without min/maxing and being meta back in jan/feb/march.
If you wanted to up your +14 key to +15, you do needed minmaxers, period. Of course 4 highly geared and skilled players could carry a non-meta to +15, but is that the "point"?
If Blizz releases new content patches 8-9 months instead of 6, and implements scaling "borrowed power" systems like Corruptions (which, you know, are getting stronger weekly even now), then that's an entirely different story.
"Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
You make the choice to pursue your desires. I want mythic raid mogs when they're current content too, but I don't want to put in the work because finding a decent raid guild is like finding a needle on mars, so I made the choice to wait and get them next expansion when I can just solo them. You literally choose how you play the game, and choices have consequences, choose the top end mythic life and you choose to play a very slim minority of what's available to you.
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Except no. Patches always work this way, simply because of average ilvl rising over time. No shit a +15 at the start of a patch is harder than the end when everyone is max geared, this is the natural progression of the game every single patch. I don't expect to clear a +15 at that point because the level that I want to min/max to isn't up to it with the average ilvl I have, but it will be after a few weeks of clearing heroic raids and lower keys. This may come as a surprise but I don't need to clear everything immediately, we have many months of each patch and it's not the end of the world that I don't clear a +15 within the first few weeks.
This viewpoint was formed at the start of BFA by the way, long before corruption. I did the whole race the game and finish everything in two weeks then be bored and raid log for the rest of the patch for a long time, it's old now.
Last edited by Jazzhands; 2020-08-06 at 04:34 PM.
docterfreeze
Being extremely capable was a big reason why people liked MoP classes, and you're just wrong about classes having no identity.Each of you is right in your own way, but only to some extent in general.Elias01
No classes had no identity. Everybody had everything only thing what was changing was theme of spells.
So, based on this stuff and quotes (1-2. Recent threads; 3. Cata talk; 4. balance):
That is, speaking of "reducing to a common denominator" I emphasize balance part, but this doesn't mean that there is no identification. It was, but much less than in previous design. Firstly, mechanics (manipulation of resources/(de)buffs/significant cds/stances and their derivatives/strengths&weaknesses of individual classes/areas of their functioning), which are specific to certain classes, were greatly reduced/pruned + general capabilities within some classes were expanded (this was allowed by new perks' system that came in place of talents), which made previous "build" part blurred (since this first iteration was created based on old hierarchy), and hence some of classes with very blurred now already "specs", but not all of them (that what "1st of you" is talking about).
Naturally, this didn't have good effect on both class and build identification in general (as talking 2nd of you).
Current design of classes' organization is very flawed in quality of "development", since perks are too "greedy" for influence (a lot of them are too significant to be just talents (they create spec mechanics, not complement/benefit specific "whole class'" ones), as well as what is distributed to specs separately by default - these systems disrupt organization of healthy, both momentary and long-term choices
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there happened not only possibility, but also need for constant switching of what was previously always available, hanch such general dominance and demand of min&max-ing mentality; think for yourself, how often you would need to switch old talents in side-altars of your priority build, mmm? maximum "PvP/PvE and other role" right? because there was no such significant burning feeling that you were losing something class related much and this despite fact that if your build will be very different from "standard", you were staying just representative of your class, highly specialized or broad-based on your choice; and all because degree of influence and appointment of new and old talents differs greatly within design - the greater "weight" of talents, the stronger this burning desire, the more susceptible person to min-maxing, everything is simple and logical
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that over past six months we have also discussed in sufficient detail, and even devs didn't miss opportunity to turn this into ridiculous meme/put in service of marketing), which is why, when trying to return "build" significance within classes in Legion, the latter one were simply smashed to pieces (which we, in fact, have been talking about for years, and smart people talked about this already during process of new system's formation). The latter speaks (again) in favor of fact, that no matter how pleasant new system is/was, but foundation laid in Cata and implemented in MoP wasn't in favor of game. Do you understand all this? It significantly cut implementation possibilities of both fantasy component and accuracy/coherence/consistency of modification "classes' part" systems within general game design.
Instead of holistic design, it was replaced by piece cut design, which is now being talked about in almost every topic *pointing at X powers* which, due to absence of at least any sane structure and hierarchy, causes myriad of errors and problems (which I spoke about in almost every topic about them where I participated).
...as for the whole topic, than, how I already said, it's too late to remove this system, it almost certainly is going to stay with you no matter what until the end of upcoming expansion.
Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-07-22 at 07:39 AM.
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heres the thing people dont understand. removing borrowed powr would likely mean not getting power gains at all. they arent going to add several new permanent talents/abilities every xpac. you dont want borrowed power? guess we need to remove gear as well. they already removed tier sets which were the ultimate form of borrowed power. you got to keep it for what, 6 months? maybe more if it was really broken.
System of rating characteristics was used for this, requirements for which grew with each level, and their numbers at the end of expansion (especially mandatory ones, with correct itemization) were excessive, thereby allowing them to grow further due to their redistribution by reforging. You repeat after people who write that items (as carriers of characteristics) are subject of discussion. This isn't true and this has already been explained more than once, since characteristics they give don't affect your mechanics, which is related exclusively to class mechanics, they complement only role part, and only "passively". Gear (as carriers of characteristics) isn't "that" borrowed powers, just lowest level of customization and urging/benefiting part of progress through content. And most importantly, they'll never become obsolete as long as they have at least 1 relevant characteristic or stat, and exists at least 1 character of appropriate level (I don't accept items' scalability within design of this game).dcc626
heres the thing people dont understand. removing borrowed powr would likely mean not getting power gains at all. they arent going to add several new permanent talents/abilities every xpac. you dont want borrowed power? guess we need to remove gear as well. they already removed tier sets which were the ultimate form of borrowed power. you got to keep it for what, 6 months? maybe more if it was really broken.
That's another problem with sets and it was touched, for example, here: they were killed due to change in system's paradigm (in fact, complete replacement of old system with new one, such as scaling, depreciation of content and progress consistency, etc.), they became redundant/interfere within current design... they were not bad, just supplemented existing system, emphasized/pushed to desired direction of development, while their substitutes push not to obtain content, but to farm existing&received one and this is bi-i-i-ig difference.
Here some separate words about "systems vs content":
In general, it all looks so that team developing these "add-ons" is trying by hook or by crook to justify their "eating bread"... as useless officials making useless/fictitious changes to legislation in their field of activity. Devs' main task is to provide content, while progress system (fundamentals) as a whole must remain constant throughout entire game cycle. Territory organization/technical and logical connections, items/mobs/NPCs design/interdependence/lore/mechanics, quests and dialogues, and so on.
Kaver
What expansion features like this did we have in BC, Wrath, Cata and MOP? None. And those were much better expansions than BFA. Shadowlands doesn't need "expansion features" in terms of borrowed power systems. We just need good fun solid content. That's it. Make Classes fun to play. Make good dungeons. Make good raids. Make good open world content. Make good solo content. That's all we need. We don't need borrowed power systems.This is quite enough with normal initial/basic gameplay organization, especially if you add to this organized PvP component. Mechanics-toolkit is exactly what player pays for, what should be get by person almost immediately, but content isn't, fee includes only opportunity to receive it, content is payment for correct implementation/understanding/application/adherence to mechanics. New classes/races that are harmonically inscribed in engine can also become some form of temporary content... but not "swing" gameplay every time so that people get confused about game's genre, to dark side it leads.Orwell7
Give us more dungeons, more raids -> more bosses, and don't EVER spend development time on features that only sound good, but plays awful.
Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-06-30 at 08:51 AM.
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they did remove borrowed power: they removed tier sets.
people have been crying for them back ever since.
its almost as if the entire playuerbase doesnt agree on everything.
What the hell are you talking about? Classes still have roughly the same utility they had back in MoP. Do you honestly think removing Demonic Circle from Warlocks or Soul Reaper from Death Knights somehow """improves class identity"""? What is that even supposed to mean?
There's an obvious difference between gear and borrowed power. Gear enhances the numbers of your class abilities but very rarely changes the way you play. Borrowed power "competes" with your class kit and (because it's usually mostly passive) reduces the importance of player input proportionally while creating another thing for Blizzard to balance. Think before you type.
Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-08-10 at 11:46 AM.