Remove Borrowed power

[Fixxit the Gnome]

I'm not that bothered by borrowed power tbh. And I don't really see how Blizz could've solved the problem of never-ending progression any other way down the line with future expansions.

[Thundering]

I don't fail to see the difference between a passive stat and an activated ability at all, it's just that those aren't deciding factors into whether something is "borrowed power" or not like you seem to think. HoA and Artifacts are called "borrowed power" because that's what Blizzard called them that, that's it. They wanted some way to distinguish them for the brain dead players who didn't understand why they had to go away.

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While you're not entirely wrong, they allow Blizzard to add more in-depth systems while avoiding bloat. It's a tool to do a lot of things, band-aiding included.

It's not really greater deepth since only "the meta" is of importance(Sadly), one of the reasons they gave up on the "old talent system". I will also state this is a bad comment due i like more deepth based on player choice and not meta(i just wished it was that simple)

It is better to make sure the class is good/fun to play to begin with then you make it even more fun by adding to it like crits pushing buttens faster ec.t

[Jazzhands]

It's not really greater deepth since only "the meta" is of importance(Sadly), one of the reasons they gave up on the "old talent system". I will also state this is a bad comment due i like more deepth based on player choice and not meta(i just wished it was that simple)

It is better to make sure the class is good/fun to play to begin with then you make it even more fun by adding to it like crits pushing buttens faster ec.t

You make the choice to go meta or not. You make the choice to raid Mythic, and have to accept everything that comes with it, including the meta. I made the choice to not do those things, and the game has been infinitely more fun for me. I can still clear heroic, M+15s ect, and have no interest in ever doing mythic level content again.

I stopped hardcore following the meta at the start of BFA. I still try to aim for the meta, I was once a hardcore mythic raider so I don't like to perform below what's expected in the content I'm in, but that's just the thing, a M+15 isn't hard, for me, and even if I'm only min/maxed 90% I'll still perform up to par and not get carried. If I find a playstyle more fun and still effective enough to clear what I want, I'll use it, because the meta can suck it and it's a terrible way to play the game.

Not everyone is obsessed with playing super perfectly min/maxed all the time. Those people are actually a minority. The larger playerbase, casuals, are just using things they find fun, and that's what I'm doing now. Infinite stars isn't meta for my class, but I use it, because I like it, and wreck people who are clearly try-harding more than me.

Basically, the depth is there, you just stay in the shallows because you think that it's necessary to complete content. Granted, if you're actually pushing M+ or doing high end mythic raiding it very much is, but once again very, very few people are.

[TheRevenantHero]

Nice try, ION.

Ok this comment wins. I laughed pretty hard.

[Mirishka]

I don't know when this pushback against this happened, but I'm guessing some jackoff like Assmongold made a very enlightening video and railed against it, and all the sheep flocked in to agree with it.

Certainly seems to be a theme around here, doesn't it?

[Kumorii]

Borrowed power is how you get new stuff every expansion and new progression without it leading to bloat.

Best part for me every expansion is the fact I have progression again.

[Hadriker]

Borrowed power is how you get new stuff every expansion and new progression without it leading to bloat.

Best part for me every expansion is the fact I have progression again.

Yep. its just not practical to keep adding to the base classes every expansion. At some point they will have to do a class overhaul and remove bloat. Why make extra work for yourselves a couple years down the road when borrowed power effectively achieves what people want? New player progression and new powers for every expansion.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see the occasional expansion with more permanent powers added. like prestige classes or something, but i don't expect it to happen with every expansion that comes out.

[Thundering]

You make the choice to go meta or not. You make the choice to raid Mythic, and have to accept everything that comes with it, including the meta. I made the choice to not do those things, and the game has been infinitely more fun for me. I can still clear heroic, M+15s ect, and have no interest in ever doing mythic level content again.

I stopped hardcore following the meta at the start of BFA. I still try to aim for the meta, I was once a hardcore mythic raider so I don't like to perform below what's expected in the content I'm in, but that's just the thing, a M+15 isn't hard, for me, and even if I'm only min/maxed 90% I'll still perform up to par and not get carried. If I find a playstyle more fun and still effective enough to clear what I want, I'll use it, because the meta can suck it and it's a terrible way to play the game.

Not everyone is obsessed with playing super perfectly min/maxed all the time. Those people are actually a minority. The larger playerbase, casuals, are just using things they find fun, and that's what I'm doing now. Infinite stars isn't meta for my class, but I use it, because I like it, and wreck people who are clearly try-harding more than me.

Basically, the depth is there, you just stay in the shallows because you think that it's necessary to complete content. Granted, if you're actually pushing M+ or doing high end mythic raiding it very much is, but once again very, very few people are.

I dont agree that playing the meta is a choice, you need to do it if you want the gear that looks better......

[Orwell7]

You make the choice to go meta or not. You make the choice to raid Mythic, and have to accept everything that comes with it, including the meta. I made the choice to not do those things, and the game has been infinitely more fun for me. I can still clear heroic, M+15s ect, and have no interest in ever doing mythic level content again.

I stopped hardcore following the meta at the start of BFA. I still try to aim for the meta, I was once a hardcore mythic raider so I don't like to perform below what's expected in the content I'm in, but that's just the thing, a M+15 isn't hard, for me, and even if I'm only min/maxed 90% I'll still perform up to par and not get carried. If I find a playstyle more fun and still effective enough to clear what I want, I'll use it, because the meta can suck it and it's a terrible way to play the game.

Not everyone is obsessed with playing super perfectly min/maxed all the time. Those people are actually a minority. The larger playerbase, casuals, are just using things they find fun, and that's what I'm doing now. Infinite stars isn't meta for my class, but I use it, because I like it, and wreck people who are clearly try-harding more than me.

Basically, the depth is there, you just stay in the shallows because you think that it's necessary to complete content. Granted, if you're actually pushing M+ or doing high end mythic raiding it very much is, but once again very, very few people are.

Your viewpoint is pretty heavily influenced by CORRUPTION.
This system is making the game piss easy right now. You could absolutely not clear a M+15 without min/maxing and being meta back in jan/feb/march.
If you wanted to up your +14 key to +15, you do needed minmaxers, period. Of course 4 highly geared and skilled players could carry a non-meta to +15, but is that the "point"?

If Blizz releases new content patches 8-9 months instead of 6, and implements scaling "borrowed power" systems like Corruptions (which, you know, are getting stronger weekly even now), then that's an entirely different story.

[Mrbleedinggums]

How many think it is better that we do not have borrowed power.

Go make your own game without borrowed power. Come back in 10 years and tell us how good it came out.

[Jazzhands]

I dont agree that playing the meta is a choice, you need to do it if you want the gear that looks better......

You make the choice to pursue your desires. I want mythic raid mogs when they're current content too, but I don't want to put in the work because finding a decent raid guild is like finding a needle on mars, so I made the choice to wait and get them next expansion when I can just solo them. You literally choose how you play the game, and choices have consequences, choose the top end mythic life and you choose to play a very slim minority of what's available to you.

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Your viewpoint is pretty heavily influenced by CORRUPTION.
This system is making the game piss easy right now. You could absolutely not clear a M+15 without min/maxing and being meta back in jan/feb/march.
If you wanted to up your +14 key to +15, you do needed minmaxers, period. Of course 4 highly geared and skilled players could carry a non-meta to +15, but is that the "point"?

If Blizz releases new content patches 8-9 months instead of 6, and implements scaling "borrowed power" systems like Corruptions (which, you know, are getting stronger weekly even now), then that's an entirely different story.

Except no. Patches always work this way, simply because of average ilvl rising over time. No shit a +15 at the start of a patch is harder than the end when everyone is max geared, this is the natural progression of the game every single patch. I don't expect to clear a +15 at that point because the level that I want to min/max to isn't up to it with the average ilvl I have, but it will be after a few weeks of clearing heroic raids and lower keys. This may come as a surprise but I don't need to clear everything immediately, we have many months of each patch and it's not the end of the world that I don't clear a +15 within the first few weeks.

This viewpoint was formed at the start of BFA by the way, long before corruption. I did the whole race the game and finish everything in two weeks then be bored and raid log for the rest of the patch for a long time, it's old now.

[Alkizon]

docterfreeze
Being extremely capable was a big reason why people liked MoP classes, and you're just wrong about classes having no identity.

Elias01
No classes had no identity. Everybody had everything only thing what was changing was theme of spells.

Each of you is right in your own way, but only to some extent in general.

So, based on this stuff and quotes (1-2. Recent threads; 3. Cata talk; 4. balance):

Talents' design in MoP somewhat falls outside scope of current system precisely because “talents” were overwhelmingly same within class (with very few exceptions) = not looking at fact that they invaded class area, they were mostly common to the whole class, which means that they performed same as class function in some way. In simple terms, conditionally there were no talents at all in MoP, and everything that could apply to them was given to you by default with choice of spec. Your role in this case was less defined than now... although more than for example in WotLK.

it's more about organization of characteristics and conditional balance, BUT some of mechanics they cut a lot (for example hunters, paladins, shamans etc) starting from BC. That is, design as "class" design was literally not the best, but due to work of above systems it looked "whole/complete/workable"... but not better. Is this understandable?

I spoke purely about MoP, and I think that design of "classes" before it was better (more sutible, kind of simpler, but more thorough). They simply organized system of characteristics better, and brought classes to one common denominator (balance) in MoP which naturally led for system that looked more attractive in eyes of uninitiated players as a whole (not everything was perfect, but more or less), but only system itself, not class' design in particular. That is, I agree on the whole, it was just about that MoP wasn't apotheosis of class design, but apparently I presented this idea too vaguely.

Well, impressions are relative/individual, but from mechanics point of view - this was the worst option of "old system". For example, MoP was the best option of "new system" but! new one is worse than old in coherence with RPG component of this game. Ie, I can say that I liked MoP classes design, but I continue to argue that in general it's bad system for this particular game. Is that more clear? Mastery was crap in way they implemented it, but reforging was good. Glyphs was added during WotLK, in fact, they were additional "talent" options and could be easily realized inside talent trees, but they found a good place for a new profession, which isn't bad in itself.

- I could like smoking, but this still doesn't mean that it's healthy for my organism.

I may like system, but this doesn't mean that it's correct/better. Just as for current game design, todays class system design is appropriate (*shudders&frowns* it's disgusting to associate this filth with word "design" in general, but let's say this way), but here already conflict is much more global and flawed is entire game design, because it was created in attempt to divide indivisible (аnd the first steps were laid exactly by Cataclysm with its "separation into specs"/LFR/CRZ/phasing attempts). Most evident and obvious present ex.

The team wants to see more class representation in Mythic + and the MDI and will consider this when adding affixes in the future.

- it was needless to take into consideration such shitty additions during class design in MoP (as well as in previous expansions), so... but exactly Cataclysm was transition from old global design to new one, and it fully concerns class design too - it wasn't old and it wasn't new, it was transitional hybrid that had no independent future, because it had disadvantages of both systems together.

Essence of balance here hiding in making that each of representatives not only gives something unique and quite useful gain/function for the group, but also what will serve/necessary for its stable existence. Therefore, as long as they try to practice design "I'm a hero and win them all" in style for each class (I don't claim at all that they're well advanced in this direction, but this is due to the same things that has already been said about Overwatch example; and stupid subscribers continue to ask for such things from devs and whine on forums that "they're killing us! it's not fair!" ) there is no justice in such war, all methods are good in it. I think, that they're suspecting something about it, but I don't see any results of this in current design.

I don’t say that those, who crying, aren't right, but it’s already (as never before) too far and long ago since system worked base on stone-scissors-paper principles, classes have lost all their “desserts”, only a “complex lunch” stayed which is required (and this is due to gameplay design for the sake of predetermination, max limitation of choice even in action: only just what is rotation, what is requirement, always necessary, which means is doomed to repeat with each fight, regardless of behavior and type of enemy). Actually, apparently, people really have something now to cry about... imo, <MoP> was the best and closest to design in this direction (universality, meaning E-Sport implies, and it doesn't matter in this case if I disagree with it (still reasonable middle ground BCvsWotLK is my preference), just in fact), classes tried to be “strong and cunning” in own way, but at the same time, most of them weren't stronger and more cunning than others + insufficiently killed organization of characteristics, but they cut only part of class and RPG mechanic back then (in principle, those which stupid Cataclysm turned into rudimentary, broke, deprived of significance and strength), stuff related to additional functionality began to move into expense of WoD, they finished the rest of it in Legion and began to feed you "temporary/limited" handouts...*looks at BFA* and now these is almost the only stuff that you have.

That is, speaking of "reducing to a common denominator" I emphasize balance part, but this doesn't mean that there is no identification. It was, but much less than in previous design. Firstly, mechanics (manipulation of resources/(de)buffs/significant cds/stances and their derivatives/strengths&weaknesses of individual classes/areas of their functioning), which are specific to certain classes, were greatly reduced/pruned + general capabilities within some classes were expanded (this was allowed by new perks' system that came in place of talents), which made previous "build" part blurred (since this first iteration was created based on old hierarchy), and hence some of classes with very blurred now already "specs", but not all of them (that what "1st of you" is talking about).

Naturally, this didn't have good effect on both class and build identification in general (as talking 2nd of you).

Current design of classes' organization is very flawed in quality of "development", since perks are too "greedy" for influence (a lot of them are too significant to be just talents (they create spec mechanics, not complement/benefit specific "whole class'" ones), as well as what is distributed to specs separately by default - these systems disrupt organization of healthy, both momentary and long-term choices
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there happened not only possibility, but also need for constant switching of what was previously always available, hanch such general dominance and demand of min&max-ing mentality; think for yourself, how often you would need to switch old talents in side-altars of your priority build, mmm? maximum "PvP/PvE and other role" right? because there was no such significant burning feeling that you were losing something class related much and this despite fact that if your build will be very different from "standard", you were staying just representative of your class, highly specialized or broad-based on your choice; and all because degree of influence and appointment of new and old talents differs greatly within design - the greater "weight" of talents, the stronger this burning desire, the more susceptible person to min-maxing, everything is simple and logical
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that over past six months we have also discussed in sufficient detail, and even devs didn't miss opportunity to turn this into ridiculous meme/put in service of marketing), which is why, when trying to return "build" significance within classes in Legion, the latter one were simply smashed to pieces (which we, in fact, have been talking about for years, and smart people talked about this already during process of new system's formation). The latter speaks (again) in favor of fact, that no matter how pleasant new system is/was, but foundation laid in Cata and implemented in MoP wasn't in favor of game. Do you understand all this? It significantly cut implementation possibilities of both fantasy component and accuracy/coherence/consistency of modification "classes' part" systems within general game design.

Instead of holistic design, it was replaced by piece cut design, which is now being talked about in almost every topic *pointing at X powers* which, due to absence of at least any sane structure and hierarchy, causes myriad of errors and problems (which I spoke about in almost every topic about them where I participated).

...as for the whole topic, than, how I already said, it's too late to remove this system, it almost certainly is going to stay with you no matter what until the end of upcoming expansion.

[dcc626]

I've yet to see anyone explaining how you would get new abilities incorporated into your rotation each expansion without getting completely ability bloated after a while.

Whats people idea to fix this?

I mean i'm all for removing borrowed power but do you want to play the exact same spec each expansion then?

heres the thing people dont understand. removing borrowed powr would likely mean not getting power gains at all. they arent going to add several new permanent talents/abilities every xpac. you dont want borrowed power? guess we need to remove gear as well. they already removed tier sets which were the ultimate form of borrowed power. you got to keep it for what, 6 months? maybe more if it was really broken.

[Alkizon]

dcc626
heres the thing people dont understand. removing borrowed powr would likely mean not getting power gains at all. they arent going to add several new permanent talents/abilities every xpac. you dont want borrowed power? guess we need to remove gear as well. they already removed tier sets which were the ultimate form of borrowed power. you got to keep it for what, 6 months? maybe more if it was really broken.

System of rating characteristics was used for this, requirements for which grew with each level, and their numbers at the end of expansion (especially mandatory ones, with correct itemization) were excessive, thereby allowing them to grow further due to their redistribution by reforging. You repeat after people who write that items (as carriers of characteristics) are subject of discussion. This isn't true and this has already been explained more than once, since characteristics they give don't affect your mechanics, which is related exclusively to class mechanics, they complement only role part, and only "passively". Gear (as carriers of characteristics) isn't "that" borrowed powers, just lowest level of customization and urging/benefiting part of progress through content. And most importantly, they'll never become obsolete as long as they have at least 1 relevant characteristic or stat, and exists at least 1 character of appropriate level (I don't accept items' scalability within design of this game).

That's another problem with sets and it was touched, for example, here: they were killed due to change in system's paradigm (in fact, complete replacement of old system with new one, such as scaling, depreciation of content and progress consistency, etc.), they became redundant/interfere within current design... they were not bad, just supplemented existing system, emphasized/pushed to desired direction of development, while their substitutes push not to obtain content, but to farm existing&received one and this is bi-i-i-ig difference.

Here some separate words about "systems vs content":
In general, it all looks so that team developing these "add-ons" is trying by hook or by crook to justify their "eating bread"... as useless officials making useless/fictitious changes to legislation in their field of activity. Devs' main task is to provide content, while progress system (fundamentals) as a whole must remain constant throughout entire game cycle. Territory organization/technical and logical connections, items/mobs/NPCs design/interdependence/lore/mechanics, quests and dialogues, and so on.

Kaver
What expansion features like this did we have in BC, Wrath, Cata and MOP? None. And those were much better expansions than BFA. Shadowlands doesn't need "expansion features" in terms of borrowed power systems. We just need good fun solid content. That's it. Make Classes fun to play. Make good dungeons. Make good raids. Make good open world content. Make good solo content. That's all we need. We don't need borrowed power systems.

Orwell7
Give us more dungeons, more raids -> more bosses, and don't EVER spend development time on features that only sound good, but plays awful.

This is quite enough with normal initial/basic gameplay organization, especially if you add to this organized PvP component. Mechanics-toolkit is exactly what player pays for, what should be get by person almost immediately, but content isn't, fee includes only opportunity to receive it, content is payment for correct implementation/understanding/application/adherence to mechanics. New classes/races that are harmonically inscribed in engine can also become some form of temporary content... but not "swing" gameplay every time so that people get confused about game's genre, to dark side it leads.

[dcc626]

they did remove borrowed power: they removed tier sets.

people have been crying for them back ever since.

its almost as if the entire playuerbase doesnt agree on everything.

[paragraphgorilla]

they did remove borrowed power: they removed tier sets.

people have been crying for them back ever since.

its almost as if the entire playuerbase doesnt agree on everything.

remove all gear while you are at it since it's gonna be obsolete the next patch/expansion

[Nerovar]

No classes had no identity. Everybody had everything only thing what was changing was theme of spells.

What the hell are you talking about? Classes still have roughly the same utility they had back in MoP. Do you honestly think removing Demonic Circle from Warlocks or Soul Reaper from Death Knights somehow """improves class identity"""? What is that even supposed to mean?

remove all gear while you are at it since it's gonna be obsolete the next patch/expansion

There's an obvious difference between gear and borrowed power. Gear enhances the numbers of your class abilities but very rarely changes the way you play. Borrowed power "competes" with your class kit and (because it's usually mostly passive) reduces the importance of player input proportionally while creating another thing for Blizzard to balance. Think before you type.