Horde Reparations

[TheRevenantHero]

So rehabilitate them after they destroyed stormwind, burnt quelthalas, killed llane, and nearly took lordearon.

It's an interesting place these forums where you can find both:
1. Ugh alliance always goody two shoes
2. Ugh alliance doesn't do enough

Quel'thalas was destroyed by Arthas. Lordaeron got taken by the Forsaken, who were mostly former Lordaeronians. Yes Llane was killed but that's what happens in war. I'm not gonna try and justify Stormwind but once again, it was war. War isn't exactly fun.

The Alliance is considered a bunch of goody two shoes except they're not when it matters. The Horde is considered irredeemable villains for the actions of a few Horde members yet the Alliance isn't evil for the same reasons. It's always "they acted alone" or somehow justified.

[Minikin]

Ah yes because two wrongs make a right

It did for grommash.

Drank fel blood on Draenor went on murder spree
Drank fel blood in Azeroth killed cenarius

Became orc hero.

[Sluvs]

Yes I'm sure the orcs can pull the "we were treated unfairly" card after paving a road with draenei bones to a portal which they took to....plant trees and bring peace...wait no....kill more ppl. But oh man how dare someone put them in cages after that!

In the end regardless of how they were treated it is now canon lore that not one but two warchiefs have started harmful wars and had to be taken down while the alliance high King has done zero of that. So even if the alliance does bad shit it's too late Blizzard has already bashed horde so hard that if today anduin goes and sets fire to thunderbluff for a BBQ extravaganza it would be the alliance "getting even" rather than "going too far".

They were the fel horde, they had no control over their actions basically. Also, you cannot excuse their enslavement even if they were not being manipulated and controlled. It just creates more war. Unjust terms of peace only create more strife, it literally happened in real life (not the enslavement part) it would be clever for the alliance to put them into their culture.

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It did for grommash.

Drank fel blood on Draenor went on murder spree
Drank fel blood in Azeroth killed cenarius

Became orc hero.

You are being a little bit dishonest here, he became a hero precisely because he freed the orcs from the demons. Though it is true that his martial prowess was praised, he only became a hero after. Garrosh entire questline in OG Nagrand is precisely about that.

[Minikin]

Quel'thalas was destroyed by Arthas.

The horde also attacked it. And tried to get the Amani to side with them to help with the attack before moving east. This was the second war.

Lordaeron got taken by the Forsaken, who were mostly former Lordaeronians.

Not sure how this is relevant here?

Yes Llane was killed but that's what happens in war. I'm not gonna try and justify Stormwind but once again, it was war. War isn't exactly fun.

Yes orcs were imprisoned after the war because of the war they waged. I'm not gonna try and justify slave labor but once again they started the war. War isn't exactly fun.

See how that sounds? It's pretty much exactly your argument just flipped.

The Alliance is considered a bunch of goody two shoes except they're not when it matters.

Make your choice. Either:
Accept that they are goody two shoes and not complain about them imprisoning orcs.
Or:
Accept that they are evil and thus bad for imprisoning them.

Can't have both where you complain they are nice and then at the same time say they aren't nice enough.

The Horde is considered irredeemable villains for the actions of a few Horde members yet the Alliance isn't evil for the same reasons. It's always "they acted alone" or somehow justified.

So tell me. How come only sylvanas is taking the blame for the war? What about the shamans that helped burn or the army that slaughtered Ashenvale? How come they aren't taking the blame?

Because if you were correct in what you say then the entire horde would be getting mashed right now rather than an armistice happening with all focus on blaming and finding sylvanas.

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They were the fel horde, they had no control over their actions basically. Also, you cannot excuse their enslavement even if they were not being manipulated and controlled. It just creates more war. Unjust terms of peace only create more strife, it literally happened in real life (not the enslavement part) it would be clever for the alliance to put them into their culture.

Real life comparos have never worked well for the Warcraft universe. Ever. Not in game not on forums.

It is a world where chicken men shoot lazer beams from the moon and wings sprout from your back to give you flight. Real life agendas and parallels don't work. If they did then things like the blood oath of the horde and such wouldn't even exist as an example.

You are being a little bit dishonest here, he became a hero precisely because he freed the orcs from the demons. Though it is true that his martial prowess was praised, he only became a hero after. Garrosh entire questline in OG Nagrand is precisely about that.

Purposely so.

Also as far as Garrosh goes, he isn't very happy anytime someone brings up his father's failings. Last time someone did that he slapped them, axed them and then ruined their land using void magic.

[Skayth]

Honestly, with how the war was, I think the alliance should be paying reparations.

Horde are always made villains, horde are always placed in a no-win scenario, horde are always lied to by the developers, horde always loses a character or two, etc etc...

With horde always getting the shaft and made the "warmongering" and cause of everything, I think the alliance should pay reparations out of their ALWAYS INNOCENT hands, because of plot armor and shitty writing.

[Sluvs]

The horde also attacked it. And tried to get the Amani to side with them to help with the attack before moving east. This was the second war.




Not sure how this is relevant here?


Yes orcs were imprisoned after the war because of the war they waged. I'm not gonna try and justify slave labor but once again they started the war. War isn't exactly fun.

See how that sounds? It's pretty much exactly your argument just flipped.



Make your choice. Either:
Accept that they are goody two shoes and not complain about them imprisoning orcs.
Or:
Accept that they are evil and thus bad for imprisoning them.

Can't have both where you complain they are nice and then at the same time say they aren't nice enough.



So tell me. How come only sylvanas is taking the blame for the war? What about the shamans that helped burn or the army that slaughtered Ashenvale? How come they aren't taking the blame?

Because if you were correct in what you say then the entire horde would be getting mashed right now rather than an armistice happening with all focus on blaming and finding sylvanas.

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Real life comparos have never worked well for the Warcraft universe. Ever. Not in game not on forums.

It is a world where chicken men shoot lazer beams from the moon and wings sprout from your back to give you flight. Real life agendas and parallels don't work. If they did then things like the blood oath of the horde and such wouldn't even exist as an example.



Purposely so.

Also as far as Garrosh goes, he isn't very happy anytime someone brings up his father's failings. Last time someone did that he slapped them, axed them and then ruined their land using void magic.

It might be a magical world but my argument still has a lot of merit. You really should not put the losing side through enslavement. It would be clever to reinstate them into society in a controlled maneer.

About the secon statement, I mean... ok then? But I would not take the discussion that way

[Soon-TM]

So rehabilitate them after they destroyed stormwind, burnt quelthalas, killed llane, and nearly took lordearon.

It's an interesting place these forums where you can find both:
1. Ugh alliance always goody two shoes
2. Ugh alliance doesn't do enough

2 happens because of 1, it doesn't really take a degree in literature to understand it. The overall narrative always downplaying, or outright ignoring all of Alliance's... funkier stuff doesn't help either.

[Minikin]

It might be a magical world but my argument still has a lot of merit. You really should not put the losing side through enslavement. It would be clever to reinstate them into society in a controlled maneer.

About the secon statement, I mean... ok then? But I would not take the discussion that way

Not really.

Many of the laws we have in real life don't exist in wow. Also there is a reason why multiple threads that try to bridge this either end up with nothing or just discussing something completely unrelated and thus locked.

In the end. The story has to go forward. It sucks though that the horde has been made the horse to ride this story on but that's that. Because let's be honest. Without the horde this would be one boring ass world. Without the horde alliance would be just a bunch of hobos and farmers. The horde being present is what provides motion for the story. The horde being active is what provides the fuel for the narrative. Yes as a consequence of that it gets whacked in the face but honestly it's still better than blue world police.

[Paperfox]

Reparations didn't work out well in 1918. Just delays the next war, and makes it worse.

Umm, actually Germany and the other axis powers did pay reparations, just not solely in money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations. Among other things Germany ceded 25% of its 1937 borders.

So far seems to be working.

[Minikin]

2 happens because of 1, it doesn't really take a degree in literature to understand it.

"The alliance is so nice they put orcs in prison instead of wiping them out, even after all that was done"

Said no one ever.

Instead we have: "but why! They were enslaved! They should be rehabilitated! Alliance is so evil! But they are goody two shoes!"

It doesn't require a literary genius to understand that the above thought process is confusing at best, bipolar at worst.

Either they are evil for imprisoning and thus not goody two shoes. Or they are goody two shoes for not wiping them out for the war and holding them in prison. Can't be both.

The overall narrative always downplaying, or outright ignoring all of Alliance's... funkier stuff doesn't help either.

Well obviously. I mean to put it into perspective, they had to dig up Arthas' and Garithos to find comparisons to Sylvanas and Garrosh. They have taken the horde to a level where as I said, it would take nearly two expacs worth of alliance committing genocide to be on the same level of media appearance evil. And that part is key because take this as an example.

The twilight father

Was

Benedictus.

Now that's actually huge given the position he was in at the church of the light and the alliance poster boy paladins and priests vs the hordes shaman and deathknights. The leader of the church! In league with Deathwing! What a scandal!

Guess how they deal with it. In a patch quest line. Not even a dungeon, not even a cinematic, no CGI, no raid. Forgotten. New players after cata don't even see that part.

And then the horde does something and boom:
- Garrosh ruining the vale (MoP)
- Garrosh putting ppl on spikes (SoO trailer)
- warchief made into repeatable raid boss with an iconic shoulder piece drop so every dude on earth farms him and hears him say "mountains of skulls and rivers of blood"
- orcs invading Azeroth again in WoD nice cutscenes and such
- orcs drinking fel blood in fury of hellfire. Confirming that one way or another it will happen.
- sylvanas warbeinger in BfA
- the saurfang netflix series in Ultra HD

It's not just about the alliance not doing bad things or its things getting shoved aside. It's about the gynormous magnifying glass they have put on the horde that even if the alliance shits in orgrimmars waters it looks like they are doing the horde a favor by trying to add fertilizer to their barren farm fields.

[qwerty123456]

Ignorance does not excuse their actions and does not justify their treatments. While they might not have been omniscient, they had 15 years to go after the info, they choose not to. We are not talking here about a mishap at work because you did not know something. We are talking about the enslavement of a race for 15 years, they should have known. And that is not even the point, even if the orc were monsters, they should have sought another way. Not simply enslave them and enforce more suffering upon them.

The Horde had slavery well long after the camps. The Alliance was just respecting the orcs culture and trying to treat the orcs like they treated themselves.

[Shaetha]

So basically you're saying it's totally ok for the Alliance to keep slaves because the only alternative is murder. Ok.

Nope, I'm saying eradication was the correct choice. Slavery was the wrong one. There was no sarcasm in my reply.

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a lot of whatever

Benidictus is a dungeon end boss. Maybe you should not lie about easily researchable facts.

[Talrath]

I wouldn't mind night elves using the world tree to go on a killing spree against the orcs. That's Gray, since they burned teldrassil so now we can burn their mongrel hides.

[Krothar]

I wouldn't mind night elves using the world tree to go on a killing spree against the orcs. That's Gray, since they burned teldrassil so now we can burn their mongrel hides.

That isn't gray lmao.

[Varodoc]

That is called justice for the countless innocents that were incinerated at Teldrassil.

[Talrath]

I mean they go on a complete genocide instead of just burning ogrimmar do the ground. So after killing every orc, Tauren, forsaken and troll in azeroth, they go to Outland and start killing orcs there as well.

[Mehrunes]

Problem is, the only way to get a "grey war" is to write the entire Alliance out of character because no one Alliance leader, even the "High King" actually holds dominion over any of the others... Meanwhile all you need to start a war on the Horde side is write the one person with all the power (the Warchief) out of character, or not even out of character in Sylvanas' case, she's always been a nutjob, she just never had the power to do anything about it.

Just because they don't hold dominion over one another doesn't mean they would just ignore each other and their allegiances. When Varian declared war on the spot because he got triggered by Orcs being a thing one time too many, the rest of the Alliance still followed suit.

Sidenote, we do now know that Sylvanas' actions have caused both HvA wars since WoW started, as she was confirmed in an interview by the guy who's been writing for her since before Wrathgate happened to have been behind the Wrathgate Blighting, which resulted in Varian declaring war on the Horde.

Except for the part where his boss later distanced himself for that statement in a subsequent interview. And never mind that not only was Varian the one to declare war (as per Chronicle v3), but he did so in response to the Orcs existing, not in response to the Wrathgate. Because he took Horde's explanation that it performed by traitors to the Horde at face value.

• Two: the alternative to internment camps was extermination of the orcs. Because it would be stupid to let the invaders that just massacred your villages and razed your land simply for "lok'tar ogar" live and risk another "lok'tar ogar" party.

Um, no. The other alternative was to make them go back where they came from. Which, you know, is kinda the norm in warfare. Given how the Orcs could invade Azeroth only through one specific place that was the ultimate chokepoint, doing so would not only been even safer than the usual case of making the enemy GTFO to their home, it was safer than hosting a giant army in a bunch of camps in the middle of Alliance territory, where they could have sparked a rebellion at any point. The fact that Khadgar then sealed the Dark Portal makes not exiling the Orcs even stupider.

[Mardux]

Yes I'm sure the orcs can pull the "we were treated unfairly" card after paving a road with draenei bones to a portal which they took to....plant trees and bring peace...wait no....kill more ppl. But oh man how dare someone put them in cages after that!

In the end regardless of how they were treated it is now canon lore that not one but two warchiefs have started harmful wars and had to be taken down while the alliance high King has done zero of that. So even if the alliance does bad shit it's too late Blizzard has already bashed horde so hard that if today anduin goes and sets fire to thunderbluff for a BBQ extravaganza it would be the alliance "getting even" rather than "going too far".

Funny how when alliance does what they did its just "putting them in cages" despite it being textbook genocide.

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EDIT: I brought up 1918, not 1945. So, why the f are you bringing up something entirely different.

Since you brought up 1945, of course, they 'paid' reparations. Unlike WWI, after WWII Germany was occupied completely, and then they got rebuilt by others as pawns in the Cold War.

Completely different.

Because their argument is bs. So they have to strawman.

[Lolites]

why should horde pay reparations, when they DID NOT loose the war?
they AGREED on armistice...

[Mehrunes]

The last time such things were attempted IRL, it resulted in WW2. Think of something different if you don't want to be stomped again.

The idea that Versailles was so harsh that it caused WWII doesn't pan out. It's nothing more than German interwar propaganda. Versailles isn't even the harshest treaty imposed on the central powers after the war was over. Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye, treaty of Trianon and treaty of Sevres were all harsher than Versailles. Same goes for the treaty of Brest-Litevsk that Germany had Russia sign when Russia imploded into a revolution.

Germany lost only 8% of its continental territory, its very few colonies and 10% of its population. Austria-Hungary was shattered into smithereens and the same was planned for the Ottoman Empire (with most of it being achieved even after they won the Turkish War of Independence and regained control of Anatolia). Russia lost up to 30% of its population (depending on count), and most of the territory that was industrialized and not a Siberian wasteland (and, again, it was imposed on them while they had a revolution to deal with on top of that).

And while Versailles required higher reparations, Germany was only really expected to only ever pay the A and B bonds, so roughly 1/3rd of the total sum. Which, combined with the fact that Germany was a richer nation to begin with and unlike the rest was not carved into a sliver of its former self, i.e. it did not lose a bejeezus out of its industrialized territory or its population in the process like the others, made it much easier for them to repay their bill than it was for the rest.

Yet no one ever excuses USSR's involvement in WWII with Brest-Litevsk. No one excuses Turkey's involvement in WWII with Sevres, because Turkish involvement in WWII was them joining at the last second to pile up on the Axis so that the Allies wouldn't think badly of them. Which flat out shows it actually is possible to take a harsh treaty and then not go on a rampage across half the world. WWII happened because Nazis were filth. The myth that Versailles made them do what they did is just one of their myriad of excuses, right there next to blaming it on the Jews stabbing Germany in the back during WWI and making the "master race" lose that war.

They both used the Horde for their own selfish desires. That to you is "did nothing wrong"? How as someone on the Horde faction defend characters that almost ruined them?

Garrosh's war resulted in Horde gaining multiple new territories at the cost of withdrawing out of Ashenvale. Sylvanas' war saw Horde ending up stronger than the Alliance, to the point that Alliance characters themselves commented on how it's the Horde that's the only force in the world capable of standing up to N'Zoth. So how were they ruined, again?