Horde Reparations

[Sluvs]

A single vision that not everyone saw was enough to betray people you have been friendly with for years? And that vision then made Grom subjugate, enslave, kill and rape everyone else on dreanor including other orcs? I didn't realize the vision was so powerful that it mind controlled him.

And the orcs weren't completely controlled by the demons otherwise they would have never been able to betray them.




You know how Garona was born right?? Learn lore before making a post next time. Also replay WoD as its implied what will happen to Yrel and shit.

No offense man, but you are playing fast and loose with the lore.

Every argument that you are making is a little bit of a stretch at best, and downright wrong at worst.

Orcs did not have free will, this is not open for debate.
Garrosh tricked Grom.

There is no wriggling out of those 2 things.

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Did you not play WoD. Its the implied fate of Yrel when you rescue her. And its not right out stated because its a teen game.

Well, I would not bring Yrel when there are other better examples. But what is your point? Because you choose the last 3 words of my post and ignored everything else.

[qwerty123456]

No offense man, but you are playing fast and loose with the lore.

Every argument that you are making is a little bit of a stretch at best, and downright wrong at worst.

Orcs did not have free will, this is not open for debate.
Garrosh tricked Grom.

There is no wriggling out of those 2 things.

I'm not playing fast and loose with the lore its a fact that the OG orcs raped. And its implied in WoD which they couldn't right out state as its a teen game. They themselves were also raped by ogres I don't think its stated in wow but in the books and stuff its mentioned.

Clearly the orcs had at least some freewill. You don't just turn on someone if you are a complete puppet.

Garrosh tricked Grom into doing the very same thing he was supposedly trying to avoid? Why did he need to slaughter orcs that didn't side with him?

I didn't ignore anything. Any Orcs not siding with Grom were getting slaughtered and its only because of our characters that the Frostwolves and Shadowmoon (and partially because of Nerzhul) still exist.

[Mehrunes]

A single vision that not everyone saw was enough to betray people you have been friendly with for years? And that vision then made Grom subjugate, enslave, kill and rape everyone else on dreanor including other orcs? I didn't realize the vision was so powerful that it mind controlled him.

And the orcs weren't completely controlled by the demons otherwise they would have never been able to betray them.

Which people are those, exactly? Because it wasn't the Draenei if that's what you're getting at. The Draenei deliberately secluded themselves from everyone else as much as they could and only sporadically traded with the Orcs when they had to.

They only managed to turn on the demons because their grasp started to slip.

But it also does no change the fact that not all clans went under groms banner, and also no bearing on orc enslavement, which was the main point being argued. Also raping? Cmon.

Their grasp didn't just "start to slip". Kil'Jaedan and his lot outright abandoned the Orcs to their own devices after his Draenei obsession was finally satiated.

[Syegfryed]

i love how people want to say orcs as a race are all evil by going to war, ignoring totally how they were tricked and manipulated

while in the very expansion we have draeneis willingly joining the Legion knowing very well what they were

[qwerty123456]

Which people are those, exactly? Because it wasn't the Draenei if that's what you're getting at. The Draenei deliberately secluded themselves from everyone else as much as they could and only sporadically traded with the Orcs when they had to.

They were friendly with the Draenei. They weren't trying to wipe each other out. Also other orc clans who chose not to side with them were also getting attacked by them.

i love how people want to say orcs as a race are all evil by going to war, ignoring totally how they were tricked and manipulated

while in the very expansion we have draeneis willingly joining the Legion knowing very well what they were

No one is saying the orcs are a purely evil race. I'm just saying trying to write off all their actions as being innocent creatures that were tricked is silly.

[Sluvs]

I'm not playing fast and loose with the lore its a fact that the OG orcs raped. And its implied in WoD which they couldn't right out state as its a teen game. They themselves were also raped by ogres I don't think its stated in wow but in the books and stuff its mentioned.

Clearly the orcs had at least some freewill. You don't just turn on someone if you are a complete puppet.

Garrosh tricked Grom into doing the very same thing he was supposedly trying to avoid? Why did he need to slaughter orcs that didn't side with him?

I was not referring to the raping part. I was referring to the curse of flesh bit, for example.

The orcs did not have free will. There is no room for interpretations here. Conditional Free will is no free will at all.

Yes, he did. He slaughtered the orcs that did not join with him in order to intimidate the other to join them.

[Arrashi]

i love how people want to say orcs as a race are all evil by going to war, ignoring totally how they were tricked and manipulated

while in the very expansion we have draeneis willingly joining the Legion knowing very well what they were

To be fair, its not that they were manipulated, its how often they get manipulated into war thats the problem

As old saying goes, you dont know day nor hour....the orcs get manipulated into war again.

[Sluvs]

Which people are those, exactly? Because it wasn't the Draenei if that's what you're getting at. The Draenei deliberately secluded themselves from everyone else as much as they could and only sporadically traded with the Orcs when they had to.




Their grasp didn't just "start to slip". Kil'Jaedan and his lot outright abandoned the Orcs to their own devices after his Draenei obsession was finally satiated.

I thought he used them in order to weaken azeroth's defenses.

[Rozz]

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that the orcs raped female draenei during their invasion of Shattrath.

I think after the chronicles it was toned down, but yes orcs forced themselves on Draenei women during the wars/raids. But this was around the same time in lore we had Me'dan and magically aged up adults, so Garona's backstory is a hot potato they clearly danced around.

[Sluvs]

They were friendly with the Draenei. They weren't trying to wipe each other out. Also other orc clans who chose not to side with them were also getting attacked by them.



No one is saying the orcs are a purely evil race. I'm just saying trying to write off all their actions as being innocent creatures that were tricked is silly.

Literally no one here in this thread claimed that the orcs were innocent.

[Syegfryed]

No one is saying the orcs are a purely evil race. I'm just saying trying to write off all their actions as being innocent creatures that were tricked is silly.

they were tricked yes, ignoring the canon lore is what is silly.

[qwerty123456]

I was not referring to the raping part. I was referring to the curse of flesh bit, for example.

The orcs did not have free will. There is no room for interpretations here. Conditional Free will is no free will at all.

Yes, he did. He slaughtered the orcs that did not join with him in order to intimidate the other to join them.

So its ok to slaughter people so others join you? He had advanced tech and was already enslaving every other species on the planet or killing them off. Why did he "need" to kill orcs and why is making him a hypocrite ok because someone tricked him with a single partial vision?

Literally no one here in this thread claimed that the orcs were innocent.

You keep saying they had no free will what so ever. Making them blameless.

they were tricked yes, ignoring the canon lore is what is silly.

Tricking someone doesn't instantly turn them into raping murderers who kill even thier own people so that other's of their race will join them.

both were in different timelines with different kind of manipulations, both very convincing. So its one time in my book.

LOL now whose the one ignoring lore.

[Syegfryed]

To be fair, its not that they were manipulated, its how often they get manipulated into war thats the problem

As old saying goes, you don't know day nor hour....the orcs get manipulated into war again.

both were in different timelines with different kind of manipulations, both very convincing. So its one time in my book.

[Mehrunes]

They were friendly with the Draenei. They weren't trying to wipe each other out. Also other orc clans who chose not to side with them were also getting attacked by them.

You have some absurdly low bar of what constitutes friendly.

[qwerty123456]

You have some absurdly low bar of what constitutes friendly.

Do you trade with your enemies? If you say hi to someone on the street are you being friendly to them? If you hold a door open for someone are you not being friendly? At worst you could say they were neutral bordering on friendly and even then why does that make it ok to suddenly rape and murder them when your interactions with them at that time are all neutral/positive?

[Mehrunes]

I thought he used them in order to weaken azeroth's defenses.

That was Sargeras. With the Orcs at large not knowing that he's also related to the Legion. Or that he's Sargeras and not Medivh. Sargeras' plan was for Kil'Jaedan to GTFO precisely for the Orcs to feel abandoned and used by the Legion (especially given how their world was dying as a consequence of them teaming up), so that they'd be more willing to join "Medivh's" offer to plunder Azeroth.

Do you trade with your enemies? If you say hi to someone on the street are you being friendly to them? If you hold a door open for someone are you not being friendly?

You do realize relationships between people aren't a binary type of thing where you're either friend or an enemy, right?

[qwerty123456]

That was Sargeras. With the Orcs at large not knowing that he's also related to the Legion. Or that he's Sargeras and not Medivh. Sargeras' plan was for Kil'Jaedan to GTFO precisely for the Orcs to feel abandoned and used by the Legion (especially given how their world was dying as a consequence of them teaming up), so that they'd be more willing to join "Medivh's" offer to plunder Azeroth.




You do realize relationships between people aren't a binary type of thing where you're either friend or an enemy, right?

I never said they were friends with them just friendly which is true.

[Sluvs]

So its ok to slaughter people so others join you? He had advanced tech and was already enslaving every other species on the planet or killing them off. Why did he "need" to kill orcs and why is making him a hypocrite ok because someone tricked him with a single partial vision?



You keep saying they had no free will what so ever. Making them blameless.



Tricking someone doesn't instantly turn them into raping murderers who kill even thier own people so that other's of their race will join them.

They had no free will in their invasion of azeroth, they were being used on that, and blameless on THIS account. But orcs are far from innocent, their whole culture is built around being conquerors.

As I said, ofc it's not ok. But we were not discussing the iron horde (which is an antagonistic organization of the game) we were discussing the enslavement of orcs by human for 15 years. In which they were victims, whether you like it or not. Since then, a lot of posters jumped to defend the alliance, saying that is somehow justified. They are losing the main point that the horde back then is not the same horde right now and that is not justifiable in any way shape or form.

[Syegfryed]

Tricking someone doesn't instantly turn them into raping murderers who kill even thier own people so that other's of their race will join them.

they were not "raping murderers" you are exaggerating trying to appeal to emotions here, it will not work.

tricking someone doesn't instantly turn then into murderers yes, but corrupting then with demon blood, binding their will to the legion does, you are ignoring that little part.

LOL now whose the one ignoring lore.

and what is wrong? the orcs from wod and the ones from the normal timeline are completely different, they are not the same.

[Arrashi]

both were in different timelines with different kind of manipulations, both very convincing. So its one time in my book.

The issue is that with MoP and garry turning into lol-evil combined with BFA also being another war its kinda difficult to take orcs seriously. I mean lets face it blizzard completely destroyed their racial narrative.