Horde Reparations

[Minikin]

What kind of "optics" made it look like Benedictus was dealt with outside of a dungeon?

Did you not read the post? It's about comparing how an alliance figure head does something bad and it is barely shown in a tiny ass way versus a horde guy doing something bad and Blizzard explodes it with a magnifying glass making it look 10 times worse in comparison. Basically sweeping alliance stupidity under the rug.

[Sluvs]

The issue is that with MoP and garry turning into lol-evil combined with BFA also being another war its kinda difficult to take orcs seriously. I mean lets face it blizzard completely destroyed their racial narrative.

I have a feeling that BfA just made sure that this sort of narrative will stay dead. And it took the faction war with it.

[munkeyinorbit]

Even after they found out about the corruption, they still treated orcs more like animals than people. And continue to keep them as slaves to this day in lore.

Imprisoning someone because they committed a crime is not the same as slavery. Murderers go to jail for a lot longer than 15 years. Murders sometimes get capital punishment. All these arguments about alliance using orcs as slaves is wrong and what we have seen is that the humans were right in keeping them locked up.

[Minikin]

Raping? You're making stuff up. But coming from a retarded Draenei player it makes sense to jump to such conclusions, did your parents drop you as a child?
[Infraction]

Imagine being so faction biased to actually get this salty on an online forum.

[Arrashi]

I have a feeling that BfA just made sure that this sort of narrative will stay dead. And it took the faction war with it.

I fully doubt it. Blizzard will always fall into familiar "iconic" territory. Shadowlands being "nostalgia" the expansion, proves that they hold to tightly to past even when trying to create something new. I fully expect faction war to return if not in expansion after SL, then in one after.

[munkeyinorbit]

Ignorance does not excuse their actions and does not justify their treatments. While they might not have been omniscient, they had 15 years to go after the info, they choose not to. We are not talking here about a mishap at work because you did not know something. We are talking about the enslavement of a race for 15 years, they should have known. And that is not even the point, even if the orc were monsters, they should have sought another way. Not simply enslave them and enforce more suffering upon them.

It's not enslavement if they are put in jail for murder. Because. They murdered people. Putting them in jail was the right thing to do and as well all know, 15 is a pretty light sentence when it comes to murder

[Sluvs]

It's not enslavement if they are put in jail for murder. Because. They murdered people. Putting them in jail was the right thing to do and as well all know, 15 is a pretty light sentence when it comes to murder

Yes it is. Forced labour of any kind is slavery. Also, they were not common prisoners of war, which is very different from a common prisoner.

[Jastall]

Indeed. Even so, the damage the war caused even to victors (with the sole exception of the US ofc) was so great that everyone, from Roosevelt to Stalin, decided not to repeat the blunder of Versailles after WW1.

Well that, and Germany was in no shape to pay reparations to anyone, with how ruined it was. Regardless, for both them and Japan, it was decided that bringing them into the fold and helping them rebuild was a more acceptable alternative to crushing them underfoot with war reparations or sundry sanctions. So far it's worked out pretty well all things considered.

Note that such an outcome is just as impossible to implement in this game as one faction annihilating the other. The status quo will always prevail because game mechanics require both factions to be active and at least somewhat at odds, which is why the faction war as a story is doomed from the start unless it's kept small in scale such as in Classic or Stormheim.

[Shiza]

They had no free will in their invasion of azeroth, they were being used on that, and blameless on THIS account. But orcs are far from innocent, their whole culture is built around being conquerors.

As I said, ofc it's not ok. But we were not discussing the iron horde (which is an antagonistic organization of the game) we were discussing the enslavement of orcs by human for 15 years. In which they were victims, whether you like it or not. Since then, a lot of posters jumped to defend the alliance, saying that is somehow justified. They are losing the main point that the horde back then is not the same horde right now and that is not justifiable in any way shape or form.

All of that kinda falls apart if you consider that this is basically the one single atrocity which you can ascribe to the alliance which was commited by a nation which has become a part of the Horde, basically making the Horde responsible for the internment camps because Lordaeron was succeeded as a nation by undercity with all of its responsibilities and its history. Not to forget that the Orcs were depicted since the whole story around them being corrupted by the Legion as willing and eager to cause similar atrocities over and over again.

Also, there is little in terms of indication that Orcs lacked free will due to the demon blood. In the Novels Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal, Orcs are depicted as posessing free will and agency, including Grom Hellscream who was the first person to ever drink the demon blood and being perfectly able to methodically suppress and release his bloodlust. So there isn't really any indication that the Orcs lacked agency in any shape or form. The effect was basically increasing aggression, which means they were as accountable for their actions as a guy who takes steroids and then goes on a murder rampage.

Not to forget that the Orcs were even before consuming the demon blood perfectly fine with starting a genocide against the peaceful Draenei race with their justification being that dead Orcs told them to kill the Draenei off.

[Sluvs]

All of that kinda falls apart if you consider that this is basically the one single atrocity which you can ascribe to the alliance which was commited by a nation which has become a part of the Horde, basically making the Horde responsible for the internment camps because Lordaeron was succeeded as a nation by undercity with all of its responsibilities and its history. Not to forget that the Orcs were depicted since the whole story around them being corrupted by the Legion as willing and eager to cause similar atrocities over and over again.

Also, there is little in terms of indication that Orcs lacked free will due to the demon blood. In the Novels Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal, Orcs are depicted as posessing free will and agency, including Grom Hellscream who was the first person to ever drink the demon blood and being perfectly able to methodically suppress and release his bloodlust. So there isn't really any indication that the Orcs lacked agency in any shape or form. The effect was basically increasing aggression, which means they were as accountable for their actions as a guy who takes steroids and then goes on a murder rampage.

Not to forget that the Orcs were even before consuming the demon blood perfectly fine with starting a genocide against the peaceful Draenei race with their justification being that dead Orcs told them to kill the Draenei off.

But we are discussing that single atrocity. People are just bringing other things into the discussion in order to justify it. Which is not really justifiable.

Orcs had no free will during the invasion. This is the whole thing about them being corrupted and manipulated by the burning legion. In fact, it is pretty clearly illustrated everytime they are corrupted, from Draenor, to cenarius to the very first corruption. Hell, they literally listen to their voices inside their heads and Gul'dan was leading then and manipulating them even further. Just because they are allowed some agency in order to fulfill thier master's desires, it does not mean that they are free.

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Also, to your last sentence, it was literally a setup. IIRC.

[Shiza]

But we are discussing that single atrocity. People are just bringing other things into the discussion in order to justify it. Which is not really justifiable.

Orcs had no free will during the invasion. This is the whole thing about them being corrupted and manipulated by the burning legion. In fact, it is pretty clearly illustrated everytime they are corrupted, from Draenor, to cenarius to the very first corruption. Hell, they literally listen to their voices inside their heads and Gul'dan was leading then and manipulating them even further. Just because they are allowed some agency in order to fulfill thier master's desires, it does not mean that they are free.

There is no indication that the demon blood is stripping the Orcs of their free will though. It just makes them more angry and blood thirsty. Plus, the legion control only lasted for the first war. Afterwards, Doomhammer killed the legion puppet Blackhand and destroyed the Shadow Council and still the Orcs launched an even bigger war. Not to forget that they started the Draenei Genocide even before drinking blood by their own free will because they thought dead orcs told them to do so. And they did it once again in an alternative timeline where they are not manipulated by demons. And in current timelines where they commited a genocide on the nation of Theramore and the Night Elves without any manipulation going on. The implication is more that the Orcs are just either culturally or psychologically prone to commit genocide and don't need any bigger motivation to do it.

Not to forget that I don't understand the logic of blaming the Alliance for the internment camps. They were lead and managed by Lordaeron. Lordaeron transformed into Undercity and is a Horde Nation now. With Calia being the leader of the Forsaken and therefore even the Menethil Dynasty being restored and part of the Horde, there is no ambigiouty to it. There is not a single current Alliance nation which was involved with the internment camps, they were lead by a nation which is nowadays part of the Horde.

[qwerty123456]

they were not "raping murderers" you are exaggerating trying to appeal to emotions here, it will not work.

tricking someone doesn't instantly turn then into murderers yes, but corrupting then with demon blood, binding their will to the legion does, you are ignoring that little part.



and what is wrong? the orcs from wod and the ones from the normal timeline are completely different, they are not the same.

How am I exaggerating? Does Garona not exist anymore? Did they remove the AU version and the original? Did they suddenly recon all the captured Draenei women being raped? Is it not implied in the beginning of WoD? Did they not slaughter things left and right even races they worked with? Did they not slaughter there own people who didn't want to go on Grom's murder spree? What exactly am I exaggerating?

The Au orcs weren't hopped up on demon blood and we seen what they did.

So what you are saying is that it is two separate events show the orcs willing going along with genocide which contradicts you considering it one single event.

The implication is more that the Orcs are just either culturally or psychologically prone to commit genocide and don't need any bigger motivation to do it.

Considering they descended from a race of conquering slavers who evolved from a race even more monstrous and large and so on and so on until you get to a race that was crafted and empowered to destroy shit who were created from the remains of a massive giant whose one job was also to fuck shit up I'd say that its probably genetic.

[Sluvs]

There is no indication that the demon blood is stripping the Orcs of their free will though. It just makes them more angry and blood thirsty. Plus, the legion control only lasted for the first war. Afterwards, Doomhammer killed the legion puppet Blackhand and destroyed the Shadow Council and still the Orcs launched an even bigger war. Not to forget that they started the Draenei Genocide even before drinking blood by their own free will because they thought dead orcs told them to do so. And they did it once again in an alternative timeline where they are not manipulated by demons. And in current timelines where they commited a genocide on the nation of Theramore and the Night Elves without any manipulation going on. The implication is more that the Orcs are just either culturally or psychologically prone to commit genocide and don't need any bigger motivation to do it.

Not to forget that I don't understand the logic of blaming the Alliance for the internment camps. They were lead and managed by Lordaeron. Lordaeron transformed into Undercity and is a Horde Nation now. With Calia being the leader of the Forsaken and therefore even the Menethil Dynasty being restored and part of the Horde, there is no ambigiouty to it. There is not a single current Alliance nation which was involved with the internment camps, they were lead by a nation which is nowadays part of the Horde.

There is plenty of evidence to that. Mannoroth literally says that he is the voice inside their head and after he says that, grom CANNOT refuse any order from him, to the point that he praises his master and fight his best friend. The first horde was a puppet of the Burning Legion. Period. You are misrepresenting several story moments to make the argument work, EG: theramore was done by several races, including and elf and a goblin and a lot of the people that worked on it did not know what was going to happen, The BE and the goblin knew. Which night elf genocide, you will have to be more specific. No one here is saying that the orcs are innocent, in fact in lords of war, durotan's story is precisely about the bloodlust and fury of the orcs. But they also refused to join the iron horde and joined forces with the draenei in Talador. But the fact remains that they were controlled and manipulated by the burning legion and you are just painting them with a broad brush to serve your argument.

The logic is simple, Lordaeron was part of the alliance, and the alliance allowed it. Not only that but Genn Greymane literally demanded their execution. The fact that the nation where the camps were located is long gone now is irrelevant, because the rest of the alliance allowed it. Hell they had internment camps in alterac mountains. Sa

[Syegfryed]

How am I exaggerating? Does Garona not exist anymore?

you are trying to paint like every functional orc did that, and only the shadow council were doing those experiments, again, you are exaggerating trying to win by pity.

Is it not implied in the beginning of WoD?

implies is different from canon confirmation

Did they not slaughter things left and right even races they worked with? Did they not slaughter there own people who didn't want to go on Grom's murder spree? What exactly am I exaggerating?

read this again and you will see, try to discussing without bringing to personal

The Au orcs weren't hopped up on demon blood and we seen what they did.

the AU orcs didn't nearly as much destruction as the MU orcs, path of glory didn't exist in AU, you are making false comparison in this subject.

So what you are saying is that it is two separate events show the orcs willing going along with genocide which contradicts you considering it one single event.

you making no sense again, both were different scenarios

Considering they descended from a race of conquering slavers who evolved from a race even more monstrous and large and so on and so on until you get to a race that was crafted and empowered to destroy shit who were created from the remains of a massive giant whose one job was also to fuck shit up I'd say that its probably genetic.

funny when you are defending the draenei a race who doomed a lot of worlds in their flee from the legion, a race who majority and willingly joined the Legion in seek of power and destroyed and genocide countless of other worlds, for years

The race who also joined then in WoD, if you want talk about what race is worse you are going to lose badly.

[TheRevenantHero]

Imprisoning someone because they committed a crime is not the same as slavery. Murderers go to jail for a lot longer than 15 years. Murders sometimes get capital punishment. All these arguments about alliance using orcs as slaves is wrong and what we have seen is that the humans were right in keeping them locked up.

If you actually think the Alliance didn't use orcs as slaves then you absolutely don't know anything about the lore.

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Oh, we're speculating on each other now? You're the kind of person who thinks atrocities are just dandy so long as they're against anyone NotHorde, and that any slight to the Horde deserves a full scorched earth war of extermination response.

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When has Thrall NOT been an author mouthpiece?

Ah yes. Because I pointed out Alliance fans will justify every heinous action the Alliance does that means I'm ok with atrocities. I'm not ok with atrocities. I'm just sick of the Alliance getting away with them but the Horde is ALWAYS held accountable. If the Alliance was actually held accountable for once, I wouldn't be as frustrated.

[Accendor]

Christie Golden joined the writing team and she is a massive Alliance fan girl. This has emboldened the writing team to double down on "Alliance good, Horde bad". Now we got the "war council" which has made the Horde the Alliance but in red. The Horde has absolutely no identity left. It's only matter of time before a lore character is used as a villain again while the Alliance remains the golden rays of sunshine. Even when the Alliance does something heinous it's always the people acting alone or simply justified.

Just to make this very clear, this war was no alliance favoritism for the writing team. The alliance got cucked literally everywhere. I get that lore wise the alliance won most battles, but this has no implications on the world or story at all. There is no vengeance for Theramore and Teldrassil and there never will be (Killing Sylvanas will be a start of course, but lets be honest here, the problem never was Sylvanas, the majority of the horde willingly followed her till the end. All the atrocities committed in this war will be without any consequence for the horde as a whole.

While I understand that as a member of the horde you most likely feel angry, betrayed and disgusted, as a member of the alliance you feel weak, broken and helpless.

We could debate hours who got it worse in BfA, IMO both factions suffered so much, that I have no idea how faction pride could ever be restored.

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Wanting them to take another stab at it and hoping this time we'll be able to carry on killing each other like gentlemen without being directly complicit in stunts that would get us tried in the Hague IRL seems like an exercise in futility.

The biggest problem that we have right now is that there never again can be a "grey war", because nearly the complete horde was portrayed as pure evil for the whole of BfA. From an alliance PoV there is no difference anymore between the scourge, the burning legion or the horde. What could the alliance possible do that would count as "morally grey" in a scenario where the opponents are so clearly labelled as monsters?

Yes, we might get into some evil territory if the alliance would start to murder babies, but before that literally everything is fair game at this point.
And yes, that is a problem.

[qwerty123456]

you are trying to paint like every functional orc did that, and only the shadow council were doing those experiments, again, you are exaggerating trying to win by pity.



implies is different from canon confirmation


read this again and you will see, try to discussing without bringing to personal


the AU orcs didn't nearly as much destruction as the MU orcs, path of glory didn't exist in AU, you are making false comparison in this subject.



you making no sense again, both were different scenarios



funny when you are defending the draenei a race who doomed a lot of worlds in their flee from the legion, a race who majority and willingly joined the Legion in seek of power and destroyed and genocide countless of other worlds, for years

The race who also joined then in WoD, if you want talk about what race is worse you are going to lose badly.

It's implied because the game is rated T for teen. And there is an Alt Garona so how do you explain that? You seriously think that just a few orcs discovered rape 20 seconds after the legion got to em even though they have been raped by Ogres?

I don't even know what you are trying to say.

The AU orcs were stopped by us. Had we not saved the shadowmoon exiles, Draenei, and Frostwolves among others things would have been entirely different. And no I didn't make any false comparisons.

You keep saying I am being emotional and yet you are the one unable to admit to the shit the orcs did on their own free will.

LOL Draenei that joined the legion are now demons. If you claim the orcs drinking demon blood negates their responsibility then you gotta do the same for the Eredar. Also the Draenei are led by a leader who was given a vision by someone else. So if you keep trying to remove all responsibility from Grom and the AU orcs then you gotta do the same for the Draenei. And yet even when you do the Draenei didn't go around killing people like the orcs did. Sure they may be indirectly responsible for a bunch of deaths because they fled to a planet with life on it but atleast they didn't start slaughtering people and shit. And considering that the burning legion was going to destroy all life in the universe its probably better for the orcs that the Draenei got their first which eventually led them being corrupted and brought to Azeroth where they have been able to advance technologically, spiritually, socially, magically. They would have been completely wiped out had the Burning legion weren't fucking around with the Draenei and Azeroth.

Also if you are talking about the lightbound we have no idea how true the words of the Mag'har are as you can clearly see they are still destroying the planet with iron horde tech, plus the lightbound are mindcontrolled which according to you absolves them of all responsibility. Not to mention the fact that the mag'har leader Sided fully with Sylvanas even after 99% of the horde had realized she was a monster.

And if you are talking about the 4 Draenei that joined the legion thats not even remotely close to the number of orcs that signed up for the Iron Horde and all the death and destruction that comes along with it.

[Thage]

So people who commit crimes while drugged up shouldn't be held accountable in your opinion?

Well that's a new hot take

There's a certain extent where this is true. When someone is in a situation where they are not reasonably cognizant of the ramifications of their actions, they can't be held responsible for those actions; the individuals who enabled this state are instead considered responsible for the actions that follow. That's why people with significant cognitive disorders, low-functioning autism-spectrum disorders, people who are severely developmentally disabled, and people with serious mental illnesses legally aren't considered to be responsible for their own actions and are sent for treatment rather than sent to prison (generally-speaking, though there are cases where people have slipped through the cracks or been shoved into prison by unscrupulous prosecution and judges).

[Maljinwo]

Coliseum of Lust was fanmade guys

[Ardenaso]

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that the orcs raped female draenei during their invasion of Shattrath.

yep, Maraad's sister